The PGR's Mission Just Got Harder!!

[X Ring]

The U.S. Supreme Court voted 8-1 this morning that the Westboro Baptist Church's protests at the funerals of our fallen service members is protected by the First Amendment.  The decision says that since the church, and I have a REAL problem calling them that, is protesting about the country's "acceptance" of gays and not about the service member specifically, the protests are free speech.  Since SCOTUS just gave WBC virtual free rein, I can see our job in the Patriot Guard Riders getting harder.   

Marty

[Bobbo]

The U.S. Supreme Court voted 8-1 this morning that the Westboro Baptist Church's protests at the funerals of our fallen service members is protected by the First Amendment.  The decision says that since the church, and I have a REAL problem calling them that, is protesting about the country's "acceptance" of gays and not about the service member specifically, the protests are free speech.  Since SCOTUS just gave WBC virtual free rein, I can see our job in the Patriot Guard Riders getting harder.   

Marty

I disagree.  I ride PGR for the fallen hero.  It has nothing to do with any protesters.

[Bob E.]

Like I posted in the other thread, I fail to see how their protests would be considered anything other than harassment of the family/friends of the deceased.  My opinion is that funerals should be considered private events.  If they want to protest against gays, the gov't, and whatever else, there are many more appropriate locations.

[VALKIFIED]

Our Judicial system has just defiled every soul of every SOLDIER that has ever paid the ultimate price. I also think they are telling all the people that are occupying our soil that it's okay to completely disrespect our nation and it's idea's. I don't have a problem with free speech, I do believe you have a right talk about anything you want, but to publicly defile the people that defend your right to do so is without a doubt a very large step over the line. These people are Terrorist's not Baptist's. I know for a fact that in a not to distant past, if this group were to show up at a soldiers funeral and regurgetate their crap we wouldn't be waiting for a Supreme court ruling to tell us if they are right or wrong.

[Bobbo]

Our Judicial system has just defiled every soul of every SOLDIER that has ever paid the ultimate price. I also think they are telling all the people that are occupying our soil that it's okay to completely disrespect our nation and it's idea's. I don't have a problem with free speech, I do believe you have a right talk about anything you want, but to publicly defile the people that defend your right to do so is without a doubt a very large step over the line. These people are Terrorist's not Baptist's. I know for a fact that in a not to distant past, if this group were to show up at a soldiers funeral and regurgetate their crap we wouldn't be waiting for a Supreme court ruling to tell us if they are right or wrong.

I think you don't have an understanding of WBC's message.   Their message is not to defile American solders, but to say (as crazy as it is) the USA is being punished for being tolerant of homosexuality, and the death of our solders (and others) is a manifestation of God's wrath.

This ruling validates the very principals that our Constitution and solders uphold.

[Chrisj CMA]

The U.S. Supreme Court voted 8-1 this morning that the Westboro Baptist Church's protests at the funerals of our fallen service members is protected by the First Amendment.  The decision says that since the church, and I have a REAL problem calling them that, is protesting about the country's "acceptance" of gays and not about the service member specifically, the protests are free speech.  Since SCOTUS just gave WBC virtual free rein, I can see our job in the Patriot Guard Riders getting harder.   

Marty

I disagree.  I ride PGR for the fallen hero.  It has nothing to do with any protesters.

Bobbo, first of all Im proud of you.....A PGR brother dang!  I likes it.  BUT...the PGR is all about the possibility of a protestors or intrusive media...or even just nosy uninvited crashers.   Thats what the flag line is for.  Now dont get me wrong, your motivation to "ride for the fallen" is noble and Im not criticizing, but from the stanpoint of the PGR........we do what we do because of the whack jobs that may protest.....I say BRING IT ON!    If we stop giving them national attention and  just keep blocking them with the flag, they will again grow weary and go back into hiding

[VALKIFIED]

Our Judicial system has just defiled every soul of every SOLDIER that has ever paid the ultimate price. I also think they are telling all the people that are occupying our soil that it's okay to completely disrespect our nation and it's idea's. I don't have a problem with free speech, I do believe you have a right talk about anything you want, but to publicly defile the people that defend your right to do so is without a doubt a very large step over the line. These people are Terrorist's not Baptist's. I know for a fact that in a not to distant past, if this group were to show up at a soldiers funeral and regurgetate their crap we wouldn't be waiting for a Supreme court ruling to tell us if they are right or wrong.

I think you don't have an understanding of WBC's message.   Their message is not to defile American solders, but to say (as crazy as it is) the USA is being punished for being tolerant of homosexuality, and the death of our solders (and others) is a manifestation of God's wrath.

This ruling validates the very principals that our Constitution and solders uphold.

I believe you are right in saying that I may not have a complete understanding of the WBC.  I do believe that if they want to stand around on their church grounds or in their halls of worship to express themselves fine. To bring that message to a ceremony for a fallen soldier is unacceptable on any level. This is as much of a moral issue as a constitutional issue. I would be shocked if ANYONE actually believes that all laws and rulings are right and in our best intrest all the time. This decision is a BIG WRONG.

[Bobbo]

The U.S. Supreme Court voted 8-1 this morning that the Westboro Baptist Church's protests at the funerals of our fallen service members is protected by the First Amendment.  The decision says that since the church, and I have a REAL problem calling them that, is protesting about the country's "acceptance" of gays and not about the service member specifically, the protests are free speech.  Since SCOTUS just gave WBC virtual free rein, I can see our job in the Patriot Guard Riders getting harder.   

Marty

I disagree.  I ride PGR for the fallen hero.  It has nothing to do with any protesters.

Bobbo, first of all Im proud of you.....A PGR brother dang!  I likes it.  BUT...the PGR is all about the possibility of a protestors or intrusive media...or even just nosy uninvited crashers.   Thats what the flag line is for.  Now dont get me wrong, your motivation to "ride for the fallen" is noble and Im not criticizing, but from the stanpoint of the PGR........we do what we do because of the whack jobs that may protest.....I say BRING IT ON!    If we stop giving them national attention and  just keep blocking them with the flag, they will again grow weary and go back into hiding

Our local PGR unit was started, like most, in response to WBC's threats to protest near funerals.  I have participated in most of the missions since joining about four years ago.  We as a group decided a while back that the more important element in our support rides was to honor a fellow soldier and show tremendous support and unity to their family.  We ride for and support every solder, regardless of any threats of protest.

[Valker]

Bobbo, this don't happen often, but we mostly agree on this. If what 'they' (WbC) do is illegal, so are the PGR missions and a thousand other things. I abhor what they do, they way they do it, and what they say, but it is their constitutional right to do so.

[ricoman]

If you ride in the PGR you should be aware of the 2 objectives stated in the "mission" on the Guard homepage.

"Our main mission is to attend the funeral services of fallen American heroes as invited guests of the family. Each mission we undertake has two basic objectives:
1.Show our sincere respect for our fallen heroes, their families, and their communities.
2.Shield the mourning family and their friends from interruptions created by any protestor or group of protestors."

I believe the PGR was, in fact, originally founded to be a buffer between the family (ies) of the deceased and those who would disrupt the service(s).

If you are not aware of these objectives and they do not fit your personal definition of the PGR, then perhaps it is time to rethink your "membership". it is not a social club, it's about respect to the family and the deceased and to stand in the way of that which would diminish the respect from being shown.

[R J]

Right on ricomman.

That is the we look at it Iowa.

Have attended a couple in Northern Missouri, there mission was same as National.

[Dubsvalk]

The few times we had protestors show up including this "church" group; they didn't hang around long.  I have no idea what prompted them to leave.
Dubs

[Oss]

Bobbo glad to hear you have done PGR missions like so many others.  

the last two I did were for old veterans who just didnt have much in the way of family and
the gnats were no less than for a youth KIA

We dont expect protesters to have the balls to come to the Bronx with their line of garbage and
indeed they dont come here.  Heck, my own family doesnt understand why I still love this borough
sometimes

I would like to read the opinion if I get the chance and also want to know which jurist was the holdout and why  But I dont like the smell of the decision unless it says the particular cemetery is a public place is the only thing that I can imagine was a factor in invoking the 1st Amendment
by the same reasoning the PGR can set up their bikes outside the WBC 24 7 365 to express their opinions

Sad I will say a prayer this evening for all our boys and girls overseas as always

[Bobbo]

Oss:

The lone dissenting vote was from Justice Samuel Alito.

Here is one account of the decision:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_exclusive/20110302/pl_yblog_exclusive/courts-ruling-in-funeral-protest-case-restates-first-amendment-principles


The WBC protesters are clever enough to make sure they protest on public grounds, and about general public topics.  That's mainly why they won this decision.

[Skinhead]

Our Judicial system has just defiled every soul of every SOLDIER that has ever paid the ultimate price. I also think they are telling all the people that are occupying our soil that it's okay to completely disrespect our nation and it's idea's. I don't have a problem with free speech, I do believe you have a right talk about anything you want, but to publicly defile the people that defend your right to do so is without a doubt a very large step over the line. These people are Terrorist's not Baptist's. I know for a fact that in a not to distant past, if this group were to show up at a soldiers funeral and regurgetate their crap we wouldn't be waiting for a Supreme court ruling to tell us if they are right or wrong.

I think you don't have an understanding of WBC's message.   Their message is not to defile American solders, but to say (as crazy as it is) the USA is being punished for being tolerant of homosexuality, and the death of our solders (and others) is a manifestation of God's wrath.

This ruling validates the very principals that our Constitution and solders uphold.

I would not have a problem with calling what the WBC does exercising their right of freedom of speech if the court would protect just as vigorously the right of the people they offend to exercise their right to whip the asses of those that deserve it.  I'll be more than happy to volunteer my services of deciding who deserves it.

[ricoman]

This ruling validates the very principals that our Constitution and solders uphold.
[/quote]










If you truly believe that statement, I am saddened that we are citizens of the same country. We obviously hold very different beliefs about what this nation is.
What about the rights of those they demonstrate against? A passing of a loved one does not merit, in any way, the disrespect of the occassion to make a statement that is hurtful to others.
Wanna object? Find a proper venue! A funeral/memorial service is not the place. Who are you making the statement against? A dead soldier who likely loved his country more than the protestors?

[fudgie]

What a crock of crap.  Want to say more but cant. 

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

It just goes to show that many times, a court is the worst place to handle problems such as this. I've been to a couple of PGR rides. I went for one reason, to help shield the family from having to see and hear these idiots if they showed up.

I think the court was right on this one as much as I hate it. Freedom is for everyone, even idiots. But, I think the best way for this problem to be handled would be for law enforcement and the media to stay away from these protesters. A couple of times of getting beaten level with the ground with no witnesses and therefore no lawsuits would end the problem.

These guys are just the grown up equivalent of the dewbs in school who would stand next to a teacher and taunt someone. We all remember the cure for that.

Truly, sometimes violence is the answer.

[GreenLantern57]

Trace Adkins whoop a man's ass	powered by Aeva

You Gotta Whup a Man's Ass, Sometimes!

[Bobbo]

If you truly believe that statement, I am saddened that we are citizens of the same country. We obviously hold very different beliefs about what this nation is.
What about the rights of those they demonstrate against? A passing of a loved one does not merit, in any way, the disrespect of the occassion to make a statement that is hurtful to others.
Wanna object? Find a proper venue! A funeral/memorial service is not the place. Who are you making the statement against? A dead soldier who likely loved his country more than the protestors?

If you believe the US government should have the ability to censor and prosecute people based on the content of political speech in a public place, then yes we are on opposite sides.  You are also on the opposite side of the Constitution, American history, and most Americans.

This case was about a person suing Phelps and Co. over harassment.  Harassment has to be directed at a person.  The focus of WBC is on the US government, not funeral attendees.  In their twisted minds, they believe these funerals are the direct result of US policy and the moral behavior of Americans in general.  They choose funerals to showcase their "proof" of God's wrath and disapproval of US policy.

Obviously I disagree with their beliefs and method of displaying them.  I also realize that we have constitutional rights that allow this in public places.

[Bobbo]

...I think the best way for this problem to be handled would be for law enforcement and the media to stay away from these protesters. A couple of times of getting beaten level with the ground with no witnesses and therefore no lawsuits would end the problem.

These guys are just the grown up equivalent of the dewbs in school who would stand next to a teacher and taunt someone. We all remember the cure for that.

Truly, sometimes violence is the answer.

That sort of response is EXACTLY what WBC prays for, probably more than dead soldiers.  Don't think for a minute that they don't have surveillance equipment recording everything around them.  That's the main reason they do this, for the lawsuits.
 

[Bama Red]

If you truly believe that statement, I am saddened that we are citizens of the same country. We obviously hold very different beliefs about what this nation is.
What about the rights of those they demonstrate against? A passing of a loved one does not merit, in any way, the disrespect of the occassion to make a statement that is hurtful to others.
Wanna object? Find a proper venue! A funeral/memorial service is not the place. Who are you making the statement against? A dead soldier who likely loved his country more than the protestors?

If you believe the US government should have the ability to censor and prosecute people based on the content of political speech in a public place, then yes we are on opposite sides.  You are also on the opposite side of the Constitution, American history, and most Americans.

This case was about a person suing Phelps and Co. over harassment.  Harassment has to be directed at a person.  The focus of WBC is on the US government, not funeral attendees. In their twisted minds, they believe these funerals are the direct result of US policy and the moral behavior of Americans in general.  They choose funerals to showcase their "proof" of God's wrath and disapproval of US policy.

Obviously I disagree with their beliefs and method of displaying them.  I also realize that we have constitutional rights that allow this in public places.

The WBC's aim is strictly to offend people to such an extent that those people will act in an illegal manner against them. The membership of the church consists almost entirely of members of the Phelps family. Oddly enough, a disproportionate number of these family members are lawyers. They will sue anyone acting against them at the drop of a hat. This is the family business - they have won a number of lawsuits and collected some rather large judgements. They have never been successfully sued. They are getting very rich at this "business".

I'm proud to be a PGR rider and to help shield grieving families from these scum.

[Jabba]

They have the right.  A right that I served in the military to protect.  A right that MANY of us on this board served to protect.

I despise what they do, but defend their right to do it.  I also defend, and ride with occasionally, the PGR.  That is also our right.  to shield the families from people like this.  And to be there should trouble break out.

I am wondering why there isn't a crowd of PGR riders in front of their church with loud pipes ALL the time.

Jabba

[9Ball]

If we stop giving them national attention and  just keep blocking them with the flag, they will again grow weary and go back into hiding

It's not the attention they are fishing for, it's the lawsuits.  This is how these people make money, they sue the people that step over the line trying to stop them, which is really easy to do when there are emotions and mourning.

Personally, I think this decision makes them more vulnerable to extreme violence...

[RTaz]

 I don't see why the WBC can't be arrested for disturbing the peace...they are aren't they? I was at one pgr mission and the WBC set up shop across the street from the funeral home, they had it all roped off and everything well the fire department showed up and parked right in front of them , then Home Depot called the police and asked them to remove those people from their parking lot because they were disturbing their customers and they didn't have permission to be their....the police did a wonderful job removing them even cited them for something ... the fire department did a great job of blocking view of what was happening and the funeral went as it should have with peace and dignity and great respect for our fallen hero...the WBC was not the center of attention....

[slider]

as a proud member of the PGR all I have to say is thats a load of (*&&^^%^&  to dishonor our dead heros like that..Im worried about our leaders!!

[Big Rig]

Maybe a different approach would be to have all PGR members join the wbc and change it from with in...imagine sunday services with a bike or two showing up every minute staggarded of course to attend services. Again, attend every meeting the same way. What could they do? Not allow a new member to join their congregation?  

I think we join them and drive them crazy from with in....I will tell you, that would make me head to church every Sunday.  

[VALKIFIED]

Maybe a different approach would be to have all PGR members join the wbc and change it from with in...imagine sunday services with a bike or two showing up every minute staggarded of course to attend services. Again, attend every meeting the same way. What could they do? Not allow a new member to join their congregation?  

I think we join them and drive them crazy from with in....I will tell you, that would make me head to church every Sunday.  

CLANDESTINE INFILTRATION.......................Very nice 

[old2soon]

I don't see why the WBC can't be arrested for disturbing the peace...they are aren't they? I was at one pgr mission and the WBC set up shop across the street from the funeral home, they had it all roped off and everything well the fire department showed up and parked right in front of them , then Home Depot called the police and asked them to remove those people from their parking lot because they were disturbing their customers and they didn't have permission to be their....the police did a wonderful job removing them even cited them for something ... the fire department did a great job of blocking view of what was happening and the funeral went as it should have with peace and dignity and great respect for our fallen hero...the WBC was not the center of attention....

[Bobbo]

I don't see why the WBC can't be arrested for disturbing the peace...

Would you also apply this law to the TEA party demonstrations?  Laws will apply for ALL people, not specific groups based on their message.

[CISE]

I believe you are right in saying that I may not have a complete understanding of the WBC.  I do believe that if they want to stand around on their church grounds or in their halls of worship to express themselves fine. To bring that message to a ceremony for a fallen soldier is unacceptable on any level. This is as much of a moral issue as a constitutional issue. I would be shocked if ANYONE actually believes that all laws and rulings are right and in our best intrest all the time. This decision is a BIG WRONG.
[/quote]

There are no "morals" in the Constitution - and for a very good reason.

A "moral" issue is based on a person/group/society belief or what is right or wrong.

What is morally correct for one group (i.e. removing a hand from a thief, owning another person, ability to terminate a pregnancy, ability to wage money on a sporting event) is going to be highly immoral for another group.

You cannot legislate morality. Along with Freedom of Belief is the freedom of others to have other beliefs.

(Just my humble alien opinion is all)

[RTaz]

I don't see why the WBC can't be arrested for disturbing the peace...

Would you also apply this law to the TEA party demonstrations?  Laws will apply for ALL people, not specific groups based on their message.

....if they are protesting at a funeral then yes...

[snohunter]

I don't see why the WBC can't be arrested for disturbing the peace...

Would you also apply this law to the TEA party demonstrations?  Laws will apply for ALL people, not specific groups based on their message.

If you want to apply it to the tea party than i guess you should apply it to the union demonstration going on in wisconsin too.But I won't because neither one is remotely related to this topic .

[fudgie]

I don't see why the WBC can't be arrested for disturbing the peace...

Would you also apply this law to the TEA party demonstrations?  Laws will apply for ALL people, not specific groups based on their message.

I disagree. We have groups of people that stand up for what they believe but then are considered rascist, bigots, hate groups, etc. There are double standards for groups.

[Romeo]

Like I posted in the other thread, I fail to see how their protests would be considered anything other than harassment of the family/friends of the deceased.  My opinion is that funerals should be considered private events.  If they want to protest against gays, the gov't, and whatever else, there are many more appropriate locations.

Bob E. although my opinion on this matter coincides with yours exactly, we are a nation governed by law and not by man. The supreme court is the final arbiter of those laws. It's not perfect but it's better  than anything anyone else has come up with. My only hope is that at some point these extremists see the err in their ways and understand that they are doing much more harm than good.

[fiddle mike]

Our Judicial system has just defiled every soul of every SOLDIER that has ever paid the ultimate price. I also think they are telling all the people that are occupying our soil that it's okay to completely disrespect our nation and it's idea's. I don't have a problem with free speech, I do believe you have a right talk about anything you want, but to publicly defile the people that defend your right to do so is without a doubt a very large step over the line. These people are Terrorist's not Baptist's. I know for a fact that in a not to distant past, if this group were to show up at a soldiers funeral and regurgetate their crap we wouldn't be waiting for a Supreme court ruling to tell us if they are right or wrong.

The freedom to be "just like me" is not freedom, at all.

Personally, I think our soldiers have been dying for something other than our freedom, especially since that freedom seems to be eroding, daily, and many would erode it further by squelching WBC.  The First Amendment guarantees the right to more than just popular speech.

And you're right, you shouldn't have to wait for Supreme Court to give the go-ahead to remove disruptive pricks from a solemn ceremony. It's a sad state of affairs that a bunch of vets couldn't  figure out how to bust a few heads and send the Phelps gang home.

[RoadKill]

There have been hate groups standing behind free speech before this and there will be after,I'm sure. Used to just "run them off" and go about business. Now we just talk about it and let the court decide what is good or bad. If this was a KKK group doing 20yrs ago what WBC does now it would have NEVER gone this far... and they would not have been back.The 1st amendment has not changed..the populace has 

[G-Man]

The members of the church,....the Phelps family,...are all lawyers.  Not all practicing lawyers, but they all went to law school.  They know exactly what they can get away with and how far they can take it, and still remain legal.  They represented themselves to the Supreme Court so I believe they know what they are doing.  They choose to protest outside of funerals for soldiers because they know how dispicable we all think it is.  And every time they do it, they get mass media coverage.  It has nothing to do with soldiers, or the military, it only has to do with spewing their ultra-religious fanatical garbage and getting it to the largest audience they can.  This is their venue for doing this. 

The best thing to do would for all of the media to simpley ignore them.  Stop covering the stories.  The funeral goers will have to deal with and also ignore them.  They just need to be reminded that they protesting has nothing to do with their loved one and nothing to do with them.

[Bobbo]

I don't see why the WBC can't be arrested for disturbing the peace...

Would you also apply this law to the TEA party demonstrations?  Laws will apply for ALL people, not specific groups based on their message.

I disagree. We have groups of people that stand up for what they believe but then are considered rascist, bigots, hate groups, etc. There are double standards for groups.

Are you describing TEA party members or WBC members?!  Your statement applies to both groups!

[Bobbo]

The members of the church,....the Phelps family,...are all lawyers.  Not all practicing lawyers, but they all went to law school.  They know exactly what they can get away with and how far they can take it, and still remain legal.  They represented themselves to the Supreme Court so I believe they know what they are doing.  They choose to protest outside of funerals for soldiers because they know how dispicable we all think it is.  And every time they do it, they get mass media coverage.  It has nothing to do with soldiers, or the military, it only has to do with spewing their ultra-religious fanatical garbage and getting it to the largest audience they can.  This is their venue for doing this. 

The best thing to do would for all of the media to simpley ignore them.  Stop covering the stories.  The funeral goers will have to deal with and also ignore them.  They just need to be reminded that they protesting has nothing to do with their loved one and nothing to do with them.

+1