ammo/ +P

[fudgie]

Can you shoot +P in any gun? Was at the gun show and the guy I buy my .45 LC reloads off of said Kit cannot shoot the +P in her .38 sp revolver unless its stamped on it. Well that what she has in it for SD. It is not stamped +P. Havent shot any of it just FMJ's. I never heard of it. Is this the same for all guns? What would it do?  ???

[Bobbo]

+P ammo develops higher pressure in the cartridge when fired, somewhat like a magnum load.  It would stress a gun to shoot +P if it weren't designed for it.

[Serk]

As was aid, +P (Plus Pressure) or +P+ is a non-standardized designation meaning the loads are higher than SAAMI maximum (At least I don't think it's even been standardized).

So, if a gun was designed to shoot at, say, 24,000 PSI, +P loads might be loaded to 27,000 PSI.

PROBABLY okay a few times, but..... I won't risk it. I've been given stacks of .38 +P+ loads that I refuse to shoot in any of my .38's because my .38's aren't designated as being +P or +P+ rated guns.


Short answer - IMHO Not worth it to shoot +P or +P+ in a non-+P or +P+ rated gun.

[RoadKill]

Not worth the risk, Fudgie. Especially if Kit would be the one at risk ! 

[solo1]

You would be taking a chance especially in older J frame Smith's.  If the gun is not stamped  +P it's not a good idea.  You might get by with it or you might not. Either way, it would be hard on the gun or worse yet, hard on you.

[RedValk]

ditto what ALL have said above. i'll add i know of a couple of guns we have (and we have .....eh .....a few.....living down here in the Southern Gun Culture!!!!!!   )....are specifically rated to NOT be able to shoot +P.

for instance, SHerry's lightweight special alloy lady snubnose hammerless 38....it's made of an alloy....VERY light. that part of it is 'nice' for her.....cause she wanted a lightweight snubnose to carry in her purse.

the negative? a couple come to mind. one, it specifically says in the literature do NOT shoot hot loads...and....even shooting factory standard 38 special....it actually kicks VERY hard. put it this way, i sat there one day and shot some 60-70 rounds thru it with her. Her hand was actually bruised after shooting...and mine was a bit sore! but she got the gun for self defense...not to go "plinking". it's not meant to shoot alot ....it's not HIGHLY accurate (which could be said of most if not all snubnose weapons no doubt).....the trigger pull is quite hard....and no hammer to pull back...so the pull in fairly hard and "long". but that's what you'd expect of a snubnose defense gun. you pulll it out...point "at" the target (verses aiming)...which is typically VERY close to you...and pull the trigger until you shoot THEM.  Who cares if it kicks, doesn't shoot well at 50 yards, etc.

[Serk]

This doesn't change anything stated above (Other than that it appears SAAMI HAS established what +P means for some cartridges, but not +P+) but if anyone's a geek like me that has to research the snot outta a subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition

[Chattanooga Mark]

If it were a .357 magnum weapon you could shoot .38 special +P. I would NOT shoot any +P from a .38 special revolver. As others have said, not worth the risk.

Mark

[KW]

I guess I really don’t need to ‘pipe in’ my unqualified & uninformed opinion because this has been answered exactly correctly! And, Serk’s link is excellent and explains it best, but here’s my 2 cents worth anyway! 

IMO you probably shouldn’t shoot the +P ammo in anything not designed and tested for it, but as the link explains, the +P is still within the ‘proof’ testing standards. So, you ‘could’ shoot it. The older, heavier framed Colts and Smiths could handle the round I think. The other side of the coin is “what do you really gain ballistically?” Not much, so why bother? There would be no issue in a .357, but why would you shoot a +P 38 in one? If I understand you right, it’s your wife’s gun? I’d load it up with one of the many superb fragmenting rounds made today . . .  and call it good! A .38 loaded with the right round and “in center mass” up close and personal will stop a bad guy and ruin his day.

Just an FYI: My wife carries the Taurus Model 85, P38. It’s the only Taurus we’ve ever owned and honestly, it’s a great gun. I really like the thing AND the +P round, but she loads it with a 'regular' 38. about 98% of the time. 

Ok. .  Sorry. I just like to talk ‘GUNS’ and ‘BIKES’ and there’s less and less bike talk here. . .

On a side note (and not to hijack the thread) but does anyone know if there’s a Gun Range near Bellaire? Maybe a few of us can take an hour or two from riding (I hope that isn’t blasphemy!!! LOL) and do a little plinking? I plan on bringing a ‘few’ of the neighbor’s guns (since I only own one)  and if we do some pre- planning, I’ll bring some extra .40 caliber rounds left over from my Range years.  

[rodeo1]

rule of thumb - shoot +P+ or +P 38 spl. out of a 357 and you will never have a problem. these guys speak the truth when they say what they are telling you. years ago i was a cop in colo. they came out with super vels for the 38. my model 19 shot the crap out of them, my chief special cracked the cylinder. 38s will smoke most folks that ain't on PCP. hell most killings in the cities today are with 9 mms and i wouldnt give you a plugged nickle for a 9. i shot a guy three times with a 9 and he ran away. the next day i traded it for a 686 smith in 357. ii used to say no gun without a 4 in the caliber somewhere is big enough to go bad guy hunting. i carry a kimber 45 now, and a ruger sp101 in 357 in my bike when i travel. well armed !

[Skinhead]

I just got this via email, claims it was Chinese ammo, don't know about that.  Looks like some reloader over did it.


Smith & Wesson 44 Magnum accident -

First it was baby formula, then pet food, but now you
should watch out when buying anything from China  ,
including bright, shiny, ammunition.

A guy came into the police department the other day to ask a favor.
He had a S&W 629 (.44 Mag) that he wanted to dispose of after a
mishap at the range.  He said there was a loud bang when he tested
his new ammo, (Chinese made), and the gun smacked him in the
forehead, leaving a nice gash.

When the tweety birds cleared from around his head, the pictures
show what he saw.  Bet he never uses Chinese made ammo
again!  Looks like when the round in the chamber went off, it also
set off at least two other rounds in adjacent cylinders. I would
have hated to been the one that pulled the trigger on that one!










Oh yeah, I wanted to introduce my new shooting partner (below).  She's not much of a shot, and she has trouble finding a weapon she can conceal effectively, but I'm willing to overlook a few minor faults

That' how I roll....

[JimC]

Fudgie,
I agree with all the others, why do it?

The +P will give more kick on a light weapon. With that weapon (especially for a  female) you want to be able to get back on target so it can be fired more than once.  As stated, that is a self defense weapon and if needed will probably be fired up close. It will be accuracy that counts, not velocity.

I would load it with normal cartridges, that load was the standard for most police departments for  decades and it stopped many a bad guy in their tracks with correct placement.

Jim

[Serk]

Skinhead - The blown up S&W almost definitely isn't from Chinese ammo... I've never seen Chinese .44, and Chinese ammo importation was banned by Clinton (And still not allowed). Most likely a double charged hand load is the general consensus on that one... (Or loading with too fast of a powder with too heavy of a bullet.) But almost definitely not Chinese...

(That, and even if it was Chinese, the majority of Chicom ammo is steel cased, and those pictures show brass cased casings.)

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I agree with the other folks. If it's not marked +P and if the manual doesn't say it's OK to shoot +P in it then I wouldn't. If you bought the handgun used you can probably download a manual from the manufactures website.

25 years ago I used to push the envelope with my hand-loads. Then I wound up with a swollen cylinder in my favorite (and first) 357.

Now, I don't do that.

[X Ring]

Hey Fudgie,  which .38 revolver did you get Kit?  If it's a S&W, take a pic of the left side and shoot it to me, I'll be able to give you an answer on it.

Marty

[KW]

One quick observation on the blown up Smith & Wesson; I suspect it was, as others have said, due to a ‘reload’ mistake and/or a dose of stupidity.  Another thing that rings false; why would you turn it into the Police Department? I’m absolutely positive Smith & Wesson would want to see that gun. . . .

[Skinhead]

One quick observation on the blown up Smith & Wesson; I suspect it was, as others have said, due to a ‘reload’ mistake and/or a dose of stupidity.  Another thing that rings false; why would you turn it into the Police Department? I’m absolutely positive Smith & Wesson would want to see that gun. . . .

My thoughts exactly.

[solo1]

One quick observation on the blown up Smith & Wesson; I suspect it was, as others have said, due to a ‘reload’ mistake and/or a dose of stupidity.  Another thing that rings false; why would you turn it into the Police Department? I’m absolutely positive Smith & Wesson would want to see that gun. . . .

My thoughts exactly.

I agree.  Looks like a double charge of a very fast burning powder.  '44 Mag loadings use slow burning powders and a double charge would have overflowed the case . I've seen one case where the same thing happened to a Charter Arms Bulldog. (.44 special) .  Generally blows off the top strap .

[Bobbo]

One quick observation on the blown up Smith & Wesson; I suspect it was, as others have said, due to a ‘reload’ mistake and/or a dose of stupidity.  Another thing that rings false; why would you turn it into the Police Department? I’m absolutely positive Smith & Wesson would want to see that gun. . . .

My thoughts exactly.

I agree.  Looks like a double charge of a very fast burning powder.  '44 Mag loadings use slow burning powders and a double charge would have overflowed the case . I've seen one case where the same thing happened to a Charter Arms Bulldog. (.44 special) .  Generally blows off the top strap .

Still another possibility is that it is a reload, and they forgot the powder.  I saw this once many years ago.  You hear a faint pop for one round, think nothing of it, and the next round goes boom!  Without powder, the primer can push the bullet into the barrel, where it gets stuck.  The second round has nowhere to go, and blows the cylinder.  This is specific to wheel guns, since they don't jam after a dud round.

[Serk]

I agree.  Looks like a double charge of a very fast burning powder.  '44 Mag loadings use slow burning powders and a double charge would have overflowed the case . I've seen one case where the same thing happened to a Charter Arms Bulldog. (.44 special) .  Generally blows off the top strap .

Still another possibility is that it is a reload, and they forgot the powder.  I saw this once many years ago.  You hear a faint pop for one round, think nothing of it, and the next round goes boom!  Without powder, the primer can push the bullet into the barrel, where it gets stuck.  The second round has nowhere to go, and blows the cylinder.  This is specific to wheel guns, since they don't jam after a dud round.
[/quote]


Yeah, squib load is a definite possibility as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squib_load

(Although they can happen in other gun types, you'd be surprised how many people would fire a squib, think their semi auto jammed, cycle the action and shoot it again...)

Thinking on it though, a squib load usually blows out the barrel, not the cylinder...

[Bobbo]

Thinking on it though, a squib load usually blows out the barrel, not the cylinder...

True for a long gun.  The breach is stronger than the cylinder of a revolver.

[X Ring]

Still another possibility is that it is a reload, and they forgot the powder.  I saw this once many years ago.  You hear a faint pop for one round, think nothing of it, and the next round goes boom!  Without powder, the primer can push the bullet into the barrel, where it gets stuck.  The second round has nowhere to go, and blows the cylinder.  This is specific to wheel guns, since they don't jam after a dud round.

Impossible for a couple of reasons.  1.  S&W revolver cylinders rotate counter clockwise.  If you look at the pics you will see a bullet in the chamber on the 11 o'clock position.  That means the kaboom happened on the first shot.  2.  When a round without powder goes off in a revolver the bullet leaves the case, starts crossing the cylinder gap and stops when it reaches the forcing cone.  As the bullet is still half in the chamber, it prevents the cylinder from turning.  The gun is locked up.  It takes a brass rod being inserted down the barrel and knocking the bullet back into the chamber just to open the cylinder and unload the firearm.

Marty  

[Sludge]

Oh yeah, I wanted to introduce my new shooting partner (below).  She's not much of a shot, and she has trouble finding a weapon she can conceal effectively, but I'm willing to overlook a few minor faults

That' how I roll....

Oh she has something dangerous concealed.  It might just kill a man.  Im sure of it.   

[Bobbo]

Still another possibility is that it is a reload, and they forgot the powder.  I saw this once many years ago.  You hear a faint pop for one round, think nothing of it, and the next round goes boom!  Without powder, the primer can push the bullet into the barrel, where it gets stuck.  The second round has nowhere to go, and blows the cylinder.  This is specific to wheel guns, since they don't jam after a dud round.

Impossible for a couple of reasons.  1.  S&W revolver cylinders rotate counter clockwise.  If you look at the pics you will see a bullet in the chamber on the 11 o'clock position.  That means the kaboom happened on the first shot.  2.  When a round without powder goes off in a revolver the bullet leaves the case, starts crossing the cylinder gap and stops when it reaches the forcing cone.  As the bullet is still half in the chamber, it prevents the cylinder from turning.  The gun is locked up.  It takes a brass rod being inserted down the barrel and knocking the bullet back into the chamber just to open the cylinder and unload the firearm.

Marty  

This looks like a model 629.  Here is a review that states the cylinder rotates clockwise when viewed from the rear.  I don't have this particular piece, so I can't say with certainty.

http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/smith_and_wesson_model_29_44_magnum/

After a closer look, the cylinder stop notches indicate counter clockwise rotation.  If that is the case, it wasn't a powderless load.

[solo1]

A squib load could occasionally push the bullet all the way into the barrel at which point the gun wouldn't be jammed.  I've seen that too.

A dead giveawy is a blown chamber under the hammer  that show fine  brass powdering. That's an overcharge.  A squib load wouldn't do that.  

[X Ring]

Still another possibility is that it is a reload, and they forgot the powder.  I saw this once many years ago.  You hear a faint pop for one round, think nothing of it, and the next round goes boom!  Without powder, the primer can push the bullet into the barrel, where it gets stuck.  The second round has nowhere to go, and blows the cylinder.  This is specific to wheel guns, since they don't jam after a dud round.

Impossible for a couple of reasons.  1.  S&W revolver cylinders rotate counter clockwise.  If you look at the pics you will see a bullet in the chamber on the 11 o'clock position.  That means the kaboom happened on the first shot.  2.  When a round without powder goes off in a revolver the bullet leaves the case, starts crossing the cylinder gap and stops when it reaches the forcing cone.  As the bullet is still half in the chamber, it prevents the cylinder from turning.  The gun is locked up.  It takes a brass rod being inserted down the barrel and knocking the bullet back into the chamber just to open the cylinder and unload the firearm.

Marty  

This looks like a model 629.  Here is a review that states the cylinder rotates clockwise when viewed from the rear.  I don't have this particular piece, so I can't say with certainty.

http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/smith_and_wesson_model_29_44_magnum/

After a closer look, the cylinder stop notches indicate counter clockwise rotation.  If that is the case, it wasn't a powderless load.

I've been firing S&W revolvers since I entered the Air Force as a Law Enforcement Specialist when I was 19 in 1983 and since 2001 I have been a certified Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor.  In addition, since 2000 I've been shooting S&W revolvers in competition.  All, and I mean all, S&W J, K, L, N and X frame revolver cylinders rotate ccw when viewed from the rear.  If you're only going to fire one round, you insert it into a chamber and place that chamber at 1 o'clock.  When you squeeze the trigger or rooster the hammer, the cylinder rotates to 12 o'clock to place that chamber in alignment with the barrel. 

Marty

[X Ring]

A squib load could occasionally push the bullet all the way into the barrel at which point the gun wouldn't be jammed.  I've seen that too.

A dead giveawy is a blown chamber under the hammer  that show fine  brass powdering. That's an overcharge.  A squib load wouldn't do that.  

I agree but a powderless load won't do that.  The primer only has enough power to get it into the forcing cone.  In addition, when you have a bullet stuck in the barrel and fire another round behind it, you will have to replace the barrel as it will swell at the point of impact of both bullets.  If you look down the barrel you will see a ring in the rifling.

Marty

[Brad]

One other thing to remember on those light alloy 38 revolvers,  they have a limit on bullet weight as well.  They don't want you using the lighter weight bullets so they keep the velocity down which protects the sleeved barrel.

[Trynt]

Still another possibility is that it is a reload, and they forgot the powder.  I saw this once many years ago.  You hear a faint pop for one round, think nothing of it, and the next round goes boom!  Without powder, the primer can push the bullet into the barrel, where it gets stuck.  The second round has nowhere to go, and blows the cylinder.  This is specific to wheel guns, since they don't jam after a dud round.

Impossible for a couple of reasons.  1.  S&W revolver cylinders rotate counter clockwise.  If you look at the pics you will see a bullet in the chamber on the 11 o'clock position.  That means the kaboom happened on the first shot.  2.  When a round without powder goes off in a revolver the bullet leaves the case, starts crossing the cylinder gap and stops when it reaches the forcing cone.  As the bullet is still half in the chamber, it prevents the cylinder from turning.  The gun is locked up.  It takes a brass rod being inserted down the barrel and knocking the bullet back into the chamber just to open the cylinder and unload the firearm.

Marty  

This looks like a model 629.  Here is a review that states the cylinder rotates clockwise when viewed from the rear.  I don't have this particular piece, so I can't say with certainty.

http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/smith_and_wesson_model_29_44_magnum/

After a closer look, the cylinder stop notches indicate counter clockwise rotation.  If that is the case, it wasn't a powderless load.

I have two.  They have a counter clockwise rotation as viewed form the rear.

[Bobbo]

I agree but a powderless load won't do that.  The primer only has enough power to get it into the forcing cone.

Marty

There are several online gun discussion forums that disagree with your statement.

[MAD6Gun]

[quoteI agree but a powderless load won't do that.  The primer only has enough power to get it into the forcing cone.

Marty


There are several online gun discussion forums that disagree with your statement.
 
 
 
][/quote]

Bobbo,why is it you always have to disagree with everyone. I have Personally seen this. A buddy of mine and I were at a indoor shooting range when I heard his Colt revolver go POP. He had a sqib load. Locked the Cylinder up tight. Bullet didnt get past the forcing cone. Had to drive the bullet back into the cylinder to get it open to unload it. Is it possible for the bullet to go farther into the barrel. Yea I am sure it is. BUT it is not always the case. They do get stuck in the forcing cone.

 As far as auto. I was at a action pistol compitition when another shooter was shooting. His Baretta 92 went pop. He cleared the empty case and was going to continue shooting when the range officer and others stopped him. He cleared the mag and chamber. Inspected the gun and low an behold there was a bullet stuck in the barrel. We all know what would have happened if he had shot another round.

[Bobbo]

Bobbo,why is it you always have to disagree with everyone. I have Personally seen this. A buddy of mine and I were at a indoor shooting range when I heard his Colt revolver go POP. He had a sqib load. Locked the Cylinder up tight. Bullet didnt get past the forcing cone. Had to drive the bullet back into the cylinder to get it open to unload it. Is it possible for the bullet to go farther into the barrel. Yea I am sure it is. BUT it is not always the case. They do get stuck in the forcing cone.

 As far as auto. I was at a action pistol compitition when another shooter was shooting. His Baretta 92 went pop. He cleared the empty case and was going to continue shooting when the range officer and others stopped him. He cleared the mag and chamber. Inspected the gun and low an behold there was a bullet stuck in the barrel. We all know what would have happened if he had shot another round.

I think Jabba said that if everyone agreed on everything, this would be a boring world!   

I'm not saying that a powerless round would NEVER get caught between barrel and cylinder. I'm saying there is plenty of discussion online that describes a squib load forcing the bullet past the forcing cone on revolvers.

I would suggest a little introspective as to why you believe I always disagree with everyone.  Even a simple search would find that statement false.

[Serk]

I'm not saying that a powerless round would NEVER get caught between barrel and cylinder. I'm saying there is plenty of discussion online that describes a squib load forcing the bullet past the forcing cone on revolvers.

A squib load isn't always just primer and no powder... It could be from a SMALL powder charge, enough to push the bullet into the barrel and past the forcing cone, but not enough to push the bullet out the end of the barrel... So either scenario is possible, but from the way that revolver failed, it really looks like an over powder/wrong powder situation instead of a squib load, from a squib, either powderless or under powdered, I'd expect more destruction of the barrel to go along with whatever happened to the chamber.

[KW]

So, Bobbo, you paradoxically tell MAD6Gun you disagree that you disagree. . .  . See anything wrong with that? Just curious. Maybe you can google an answer?

[KW]

Oh, and Mark is right. 99.9% of the time a primer will barely unseat the bullet from the crimping and it will get lodged in the forcing cone.   

[Bobbo]

So, Bobbo, you paradoxically tell MAD6Gun you disagree that you disagree. . .  . See anything wrong with that? Just curious. Maybe you can google an answer?

Your question doesn't contain a paradox.

http://tinyurl.com/d5wpxw

[Bobbo]

Oh, and Mark is right. 99.9% of the time a primer will barely unseat the bullet from the crimping and it will get lodged in the forcing cone.   

I don't know who "Mark" is, but I was replying to a post that said the primer alone cannot push the bullet into the barrel far enough to allow the cylinder to rotate.

Here is an example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_deaths

Scroll down about half way to 1993: Actor Brandon Lee, son of Bruce Lee

[fudgie]

Thx guys, i'll have her switch it out at home. Was at the farm store a month ago and they had the +P and the FMJ for the same price. I grabbed the +P cause it was a hollow point. The grain was a little heavier then FMJ.

Now what about auto's? I know, well I read, alot of folks using +P in their Bersa auto's. I dont believe my Bersa 380 & 40 are stamped +P. Nothing in the manual.

[Serk]

Now what about auto's? I know, well I read, alot of folks using +P in their Bersa auto's. I dont believe my Bersa 380 & 40 are stamped +P. Nothing in the manual.

Same applies... If it's not stamped as being okay for +P I wouldn't shoot +P in it...

If there's any question contact the gun's manufacturer, but for the relatively small gain in power, it's just not worth the risk in my opinion unless the weapon was designed and built for the higher pressures...

[X Ring]

You don't find .40 +P ammo.  Fudgie, stick with a good name brand (Federal, Winchester, Speer, etc) in 155-165 grain JHP and you'll be fine.  I personally use Speer 165 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points.  Afa .38 Specials for a standard load 158 gr lead hollow point if using +Ps 125 gr JHPs.  If you can find them one of the best loads for a snub is Speer's 135 gr Gold Dot Hollow Point.  The bullet is specially designed to expand from the lower velocities of a snub nosed barrel.

Marty