strange vibration

[lucky_1_chris]

I'm getting a strange vibration around 30-40 mph. It happens accelerating or decelerating, any gear, clutch pulled or out. Seems to be speed related. I'm hoping it's my tires and I'll be changing them on the 9th, but the vibration seems to fast (for lack of a better word) to be the tires... Other than tires, can you guys think of any speed related vibration problems? It's really only noticeable in the foot pegs. Only recently started noticing it, like last week after a 800 mile weekend trip. Interstate with 33,500 ish miles. U-joint maybe? Driveshaft? Final drive? Thanks

[Michvalk]

First thought U-joint

[Don07tncav]

What Michvalk said...

[old2soon]

Just for yuks and giggles-look at the shock bushings, RIDE SAFE.

[Kaiser]

First thought U-joint

+1.  And if that's the case, good luck finding a new one as they are on back-order (and have been since last year).  Only known current options are a used one (trike shop, ValkBling, VRCC classifieds) or modifying a Honda CRV u-joint.

You'll have to use the Search to find the CRV link.  I know it'll require modification.

Here's the link for ValkBling's used u-joints:

http://www.valkyrieblingandmore.com/valkyrieujoint.html

[Willow]

Second thought, possibly pinion gear.

[Disco]

I'm with Michvalk, Don07tncav, and Kaiser on the first thought.  Feeling it in the footpegs sounds all too familiar.  Another symptom mine exhibited was slop/clunking in the driveline while rocking the bike forward and backward with the engine off.  I mistakenly thought it was my rear wheel dampeners. 

There is one on ebay right now.  10 hours left, 10 bids, $67.02.  With all the recent hubbub, it's going to go way higher. 

[PhredValk]

Try a search from the home page. Somewhere folks were saying a later model 1500 Wing U-joint works in a pinch.
Fred.

[lucky_1_chris]

Yeah, the vibes are only felt in the footpegs. I'm 99% sure it's speed related.

So... I guess I'll go ahead and order a u-joint so I'll have it when I pull the wheels. What is failing on these joints, the teeth or the bearings/knuckles? Do I need to worry about the output shaft splines being damaged? (man I hope not...) I was told that the u-joint could be replaced without pulling the swingarm. Can someone tell me how this is accomplished.

I know my shock bushings are bad, but I don't think that's the problem. If it's the pinion gear I'm boned... Wouldn't be able to take my trip in a few weeks. I'll ride the bike home tonight and park it. I have to work this weekend, but I'll try to get as much done as possible.

[Daniel Meyer]

Second thought, possibly pinion gear.

Yep...pinion cup is what I'm thinking...

[Daniel Meyer]

Yeah, the vibes are only felt in the footpegs. I'm 99% sure it's speed related.

So... I guess I'll go ahead and order a u-joint so I'll have it when I pull the wheels. What is failing on these joints, the teeth or the bearings/knuckles? Do I need to worry about the output shaft splines being damaged? (man I hope not...) I was told that the u-joint could be replaced without pulling the swingarm. Can someone tell me how this is accomplished.

I know my shock bushings are bad, but I don't think that's the problem. If it's the pinion gear I'm boned... Wouldn't be able to take my trip in a few weeks. I'll ride the bike home tonight and park it. I have to work this weekend, but I'll try to get as much done as possible.

Joints are typically failing the u-joint, not the splines. Output shaft should be fine.

Pinion cup/drive shaft is as likely, an easy change once you have the parts if that's the case. Far as I know they are readily available...u-joint is hard to get at the moment.

Both are easy to check.

http://www.rattlebars.com/mtz/ujoint.html

The pinion cup is where the shaft hits the pumpkin. Just pops out.

[Jess from VA]

Those vibrations, which usually proceed to clunks and grinds, are usually ujoints or wheel bearings (with emphasis on the left rear)(I've had both fail).  My ujoint was badly damaged, but though I had the parts, the rest of the drive train and pinion cup were fine.

To try to isolate, ride the bike very slowly in a straight line, and bump the throttle a little (not wildly) (ie work the drive train slop), do so at 10-20-30-40 until you get a uniform symptom(s).  I had early signs of a ujoint failure, and basically went out and damaged it worse to diagnose it (riding locally, to limp home). 

[wizard -vrccds#125]

Sounds like a left rear wheel bearing. Thy start as a vibration the get worse. Try to check the easy stuff first. Bearings feal like a change in road surface at first the get worse. Just another 2 cents !   

[lucky_1_chris]

It'd be nice if it's just wheel bearings. I don't hear any grinding or clicking when I roll the bike not running. I do have some slop in the drive line. Notice it mostly going in to 3rd and 4th. I'll get a clunk after the clutch grabs.

The pinion cup just pops off? I hope they're not real expensive... I'll have to have a pinion cup, u-joint, and bearings in a box ready to go before I tear the rear end down. I don't have time to get parts afterward... Spare parts are good to have, though.

[5_19]

Sounds like a left rear wheel bearing. Thy start as a vibration the get worse. Try to check the easy stuff first. Bearings feal like a change in road surface at first the get worse. Just another 2 cents !   

That was my first thought also. Coming back from Izane last year I felt a vibration in my foot pegs. First thing I tried was a u-joint but that didn't fix it. It turned out to be the left rear wheel bearing on my bike. Started as an vibration on my foot pegs that was worse in the corners. You might give this a try, lean the bike to the left or right while you are going straight and maybe you can tell a difference. This could effect a wheel bearing more that a u-joint or cup. Just a thought.

[Tropic traveler]

The pinion cup is fastened to the pinion gear with a nut only accessible with a deep well socket. I replaced my trashed one with a new part from HDL about $35. Get all the related seals if you change it out. I bought a used driveshaft from Pinwall to complete the repair.
Trashed, about 1/2 eaten away, dry & rusted right at 100K but no vibrations at the time. I'm sure failure was not far away!


Driveshaft


You do not have to pull the swingarm to change the U-joint but obviously you must pull the driveshaft. You can snake it out past the boot, not a bad job.  

[lucky_1_chris]

Besides the u joint, does anyone know if any other rear end parts are on back order? Gonna get a u-joint, drive shaft, pinion cup, and rear bearing set to make sure I'm covered. Prolly have to break down and get the cup, seals, shaft, and bearings from the dealer cuz I'm afraid they won't be here in time if I order new OEM parts online. I'll do a little research tonight and try to find some used parts from Pinwall, etc.

Is it possible to check the u-joint without tearing down he rear end? Can I pull the boot and check for play, or would I not get a good feel if it's still hooked to the drive shaft and final drive?

Thanks a lot guys for your suggestions, pics, and input. Much appreciated.

[lucky_1_chris]

Alright, got the bike home and parked it til I figure out what's going on. I ordered a used u-joint, and I'll order a pinion cup, seals, driveshaft, and wheel bearings from the dealer tomorrow. With any luck I'll be able to pull the rear end down on Sunday and diagnose the problem. Parts ordered from the dealer won't be here 'til next week, so hopefully they'll let me cancel the order on any parts I don't need and credit my card back.  ???

As far as the pinion cup goes, I should only need to order #'s 13, and 35, right?



Thanks y'all

[GOOSE]

lucky_1_chris......order:  # 13 (pinion cup), # 26 (nut), and if you want #35 (o-ring) although i doub't you will need the o-ring, but as little as this o-ring costs i'd probably order it anyway just in case.  when you take the nut off of the inside of the pinion cup i use a 1/2 " impact air wrench.  i also install it with the same impact wrench.  put a little dab of blue locktite on before you put the nut on the pinion cup, and then tighten her up.  i use bel-ray waterproof grease on the pinion cup, and the u-joint splines...molly paste on everything else.  you will find that this is not a bad job, you can do it.  good luck.

[X Ring]

lucky_1_chris you don't have to order the bearing from your stealer.  If you have a Motion Industries or other bearing house, get it from them.  I'm able to get SKF or other top tier brands made in the USA a lot faster than I can from the stealer.  Usually the next day.

Marty

[lucky_1_chris]

First let me say sorry for the long-winded post. I'm trying to be as detailed as I can here. Also, I traded a fine bike that I put my heart and soul in to, so I plan to keep this Valkyrie for a good long time and many miles... Sorry if I come across as a little paranoid, , but now is the time to work out any issues with the bike

Alright, finally got around to pulling everything down. I got off work pretty late, then helped my brother move some things into his new place. Decided to take the bike over there to work on it, and we didn't get started til well after dark.

First observations...not a big fan of my jack adapter. Seems a little narrow. It does fine once it's ratcheted down, but taking her up and down working around the exhaust and rear fender it was useless to try and keep it ratcheted down the whole time. Nevertheless, it worked well enough to get the job done, and I guess that's all you can ask... I think PepsX has me spoiled...

The axle nut was on TIGHT. Really tight. Ridiculously tight. Too effin tight. There was anti-seize on it... I thought for sure that I found the problem and that the bearings would be bad cuz of this, but they weren't. The bearings on both sides were perfect. Smooth as silk. I rolled the wheel on the axle and listened intently for any unusual noise, then felt with my fingers some more. I wanted so bad for it to be bad bearings, and I spent much more time than I usually would checking them out. Nada. Bearings are fine. Bummer..

The flange looks good I think... The splines were still greased, although it looks like the last guy that was in there just applied grease over some old dried up moly paste. I was just happy they weren't dry. All the teeth look to be the same size and there doesn't seem to be any abnormal wear, but the sides of the teeth look kinda like polished copper, which may not be a good thing. I don't see much scoring, and I'm pretty sure I can see tooling marks on the sides of the teeth so hopefully I'm good. I didn't bring any solvent to get them cleaned up real good, and we only had 3 light bulbs going in his garage. I'll get a better look at them tomorrow in the sunlight (hopefully...) after a thorough cleaning.

The final drive felt like it was on really tight, also, but the studs are pretty damn corroded. One of the studs actually backed out before the nut would break loose. I'll be ordering a new stud and 4 new nuts. The teeth in the final drive looked ok. Didn't look like anything I should be worried about. I'll get a better look tomorrow, but I think I'm good here. I couldn't really feel any play between the flange and final drive. I held the pinion cup firm in one hand, and twisted the flange with the other and I didn't notice any play at all. There will probably be a little after they're cleaned up good, but I think I'm good here.

As best I can tell the pinion cup looks good. Again, I couldn't get it all cleaned out, but after just wiping out with a rag and inspecting the teeth look ok. Lotsa grease in there, and at first glance they look very much like the ones I saw last weekend and in pictures I've seen on the board. I'll get a better look tomorrow...

The splines on the driveshaft look good. I was able to get these pretty clean, and aside from some light scoring on the sides of the teeth they look really good. We'll see how they look in the sun, but I don't think I have anything to worry about here. There was very little play between the driveshaft and the pinion cup. I'm assuming a little play is normal, but I'm sure you guys will correct me if I'm wrong here. Same with the yoke end...very little play, just enough to notice. Please let me know if this is not normal. On my last bike I wouldn't have given it a second thought, but since I'm desperately looking for a problem I'm not going to dismiss any symptom...

The u-joint I'm not so sure about. If I hold the u-joint straight across with a yoke in each hand and twist I can feel and hear some play. There is only just enough play to notice. If I bend the joint and twist I can only feel play at certain points. Let me reiterate that there is 'very' little play, and at first glance I didn't notice any at all. It was only after playing with it for a little bit that I noticed it. I've read here that ANY play and it's bad, but my uneducated mind is telling me that there would certainly have to be a 'little' play in a part like this. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. I have a used one coming and I'm praying it's not in the same shape if y'all tell me that mine is bad. It's only gotta last me 'til the new ones roll out.

On a side note,I don't know why the manual says to pull the swing arm to get at the u-joint. I thought I was gonna have to fight it, but it slipped right out. Thanks for the rattlebars link!

I'll get some pics posted tomorrow after I've cleaned everything up so y'all can double check my work and alert me to anything I may have missed.

Thanks again

[Valkpilot]

The u-joint I'm not so sure about. If I hold the u-joint straight across with a yoke in each hand and twist I can feel and hear some play. There is only just enough play to notice. If I bend the joint and twist I can only feel play at certain points. Let me reiterate that there is 'very' little play, and at first glance I didn't notice any at all. It was only after playing with it for a little bit that I noticed it. I've read here that ANY play and it's bad, but my uneducated mind is telling me that there would certainly have to be a 'little' play in a part like this. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. I have a used one coming and I'm praying it's not in the same shape if y'all tell me that mine is bad. It's only gotta last me 'til the new ones roll out.

Chris, if you can twist the u-joint by hand and feel play, I think you've found your culprit.

[Daniel Meyer]

Everything sounds normal except the ujoint. If you can feel play in it (or see it around the bearing cups) it's bad.

[alph]

sounds to me like its that mother-in-law.  if you get rid of the wife and mother-in-law i'm sure that anoying sound will go a way....   


(sorry, don't know why i typed that, just thought some humor was needed....)

[lucky_1_chris]

The u-joint I'm not so sure about. If I hold the u-joint straight across with a yoke in each hand and twist I can feel and hear some play. There is only just enough play to notice. If I bend the joint and twist I can only feel play at certain points. Let me reiterate that there is 'very' little play, and at first glance I didn't notice any at all. It was only after playing with it for a little bit that I noticed it. I've read here that ANY play and it's bad, but my uneducated mind is telling me that there would certainly have to be a 'little' play in a part like this. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. I have a used one coming and I'm praying it's not in the same shape if y'all tell me that mine is bad. It's only gotta last me 'til the new ones roll out.

Chris, if you can twist the u-joint by hand and feel play, I think you've found your culprit.

Dave, that is not what I wanted to hear. I've got a 3 sisters ride coming up on the 16th and I hate the idea of it being at the mercy of a used replacement part. Guess that's how it goes sometimes. I hope the guys that sold me the u-joint check 'em before they ship.

[lucky_1_chris]

Everything sounds normal except the ujoint. If you can feel play in it (or see it around the bearing cups) it's bad.

I could only feel and hear it. Didn't see any movement, but to be honest I wasn't looking too hard. Thanks again for the rattlebars link, saved me tons of time.

[longrider]

When mine went out last fall there was no play.  Actually when I rotated it and put a bit of angle to it I found one side of the joint was seized and wouldn't move. Check yours out

warren

[tbone]

Didn't read all the replies so sorry if this is a repeat. I had the vibration in the pegs on my I/S. Ended
up being a rear wheel bearing. just 1 of the 2 on the one side was bad. Didn't get caught at tire
change.

[lucky_1_chris]

Ok, I got my hands on the replacement u-joint this morning. I don't think I feel any play in it. I thought I had some when I pulled and pushed the yokes back and forth towards each other, but I think I'm just feeling the joint bend a little. After playing with it for 20 minutes or so I called it good 'til the new ones come in. Hopefully it'll last tip next tire change...

Before I get it all back together this weekend I'll double and triple check everything, especially the pinion cup and the bearings. Thinking back the collar in the rear wheel wasn't as tight against the bearings as it could have been. On the VTX everyone said it was important to have the bearings pretty tight against that collar. With only 33.5 k miles I'm assuming they're the original bearings and it's been this way since new, but ya never know. I'll post back here this weekend when I get it back together, or earlier if I run in to any problems. We are also changing the tires on my brothers Vulcan, and replacing the clutch line on my buddy's 1800. Don't know if we'll be doing mine on sat or on sun, but I'll post back when it's done.

[ricoman]

I'm thinking bearings
Similar for me on 1st Valk.
Rear wheel -1st
front wheel 2nd-
steering 3rd
doubt if it's u-joint

[lucky_1_chris]

I'm thinking bearings
Similar for me on 1st Valk.
Rear wheel -1st
front wheel 2nd-
steering 3rd
doubt if it's u-joint

I've pulled the old u-joint. It's bad.

[ricoman]

I'm thinking bearings
Similar for me on 1st Valk.
Rear wheel -1st
front wheel 2nd-
steering 3rd
doubt if it's u-joint

I've pulled the old u-joint. It's bad.

Was wishful thinking on my part.
Hope you cleaned and waxed everything while it was apart!
There's just some places you can't get to otherewise.

[lucky_1_chris]

Got 'er back on the road Saturday night. The strange vibration I was feeling in the pegs is gone. I still have a little vibration in the footpegs, but I can reproduce it while stopped in neutral and revving the engine. Not feeling any vibes with the clutch pulled while decelerating, just a slight vibe when I lug the engine, and at right around 2700-3000 rpms. Problem solved. I'll probably order a new u-joint and replace it again when I need new tires. I'm not real crazy about using a used u-joint as I have no idea how old it is or how many miles it has. It looked a little different than the one I took out... It was a different color, had dark rings around the ends, and the yokes looked a little smaller in the area where they started to narrow out. Thought it might be a pre '97 part, but it's prolly just from a different production run. Don't really care either way cuz I'm back on the road and I'll be able to make my trip this weekend. That's the good news...

The bad news is I need new wheel dampeners. They're pretty worn out. I vigilantly checked out every single other drive line part from the output shaft back after I tore it down, but my dumb a$$ didn't check the dampeners 'til re-assembly. I'd bet money they contributed to the failing of the u-joint. Nobody in town had a set, so I won't have time to install them before this weekend. I ordered the dampeners, and I'll replace them in a couple weeks.

I can't believe I didn't check the damn dampeners...

Thanks for all the tips and advice, especially the rattlebars link. Y'all are great.

[Jess from VA]

I ordered the dampeners, and I'll replace them in a couple weeks.

I hope you ordered the ones with the inserts already in them, and not the others.... without any inserts at all (have to be ordered separately).  I believe this is a model year issue.... you wanted wheel dampners from year (and after) ......?...... anyone?  They are all interchangeable in all bikes.

[lucky_1_chris]

I ordered the dampeners, and I'll replace them in a couple weeks.

I hope you ordered the ones with the inserts already in them, and not the others.... without any inserts at all (have to be ordered separately).  I believe this is a model year issue.... you wanted wheel dampners from year (and after) ......?...... anyone?  They are all interchangeable in all bikes.

http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148543&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1999&fveh=3473

I ordered #1 in this fiche from HDL. This is a '99 GL1500CF rear wheel parts fiche. I don't see any inserts in the fiche, so I'm assuming they're in the dampers. Never crossed my mind 'til I read your post. I sure hope I ordered everything I need...