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[Willow]

I believe he was born in Hawaii.
But I also believe you are confused about the meaning of “natural born". It means citizen at birth.
If someone is born on foreign soil to US citizens, they are not a citizen at birth. They don't become a citizen until the birth is reported and recorded.
And it must be done before the child's 18th birthday.
US military bases, US embassies, US territories are not foreign soil. 
Not sure but I believe US flag ships and US flag aircraft also qualify.

Al, you need to do some reading.  The original point you made is arguable and you'll find authorities on both sides of the argument.   After that you made a couple or three absolutely false claims.  I leave it to you to discover which ones.

Incidentally, it's important that Barrack Obama was born in 1961 and not 1988.

Again the intent of the "natural born" law was to exclude immigrants, not to declare U.S. soil as somehow holy birthing ground for presidential candidates.

John McCain was born, without question, outside the U.S.  No one seemed to make an issue of that, as well they shouldn't have. 

[3fan4life]

what discrepency in the two?????

This is the one that was released by the Obama Campaign in 2008:



This is a link to the most recent one:
http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/longform.pdf


The second one is much more complete than the first one.

[Bobbo]

what discrepency in the two?????

The second one is much more complete than the first one.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but that is why the latest release is called the "long form" version that the "birthers" said didn't exist.  It has complete information compared to the standard one originally released.

[3fan4life]

BTW, what does it hurt?  what does he gain by hiding this document?  To me it says

 “I don’t need to be accountable to you the public” and for most, that matters.

I think that you may have just summed up the man's entire presidency.

[3fan4life]

what discrepency in the two?????

The second one is much more complete than the first one.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but that is why the latest release is called the "long form" version that the "birthers" said didn't exist.  It has complete information compared to the standard one originally released.

My only question would be why wasn't the "long" form released in 2008?

I don't know about other states but VA only has one birth certificate and it looks very similar to the latest one released. Because of this the one from 2008 always looked a little "fishy" to me.

The point is "moot" however, even if it were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he WASN't an American citizen he still wouldn't be put out of office

[Jess from VA]

His birth country is actually a moot point, since his mother is an American citizen.

That's Not As Cut and Dried as you would think.....

I have an uncle that spent 28 years in the Air Force.... He was stationed in Turkey with his family when one of my cousins was born.

Due to circumstances that I don't recall my cousin was born in a Turkish hospital instead of an Air Force Hospital.

Because of this he was initially determined to be a Turkish citizen and my uncle had to go through a ton of red tape to get him declared an American Citizen.

As a matter of fact the red tape was so bad that he had to extend his tour of duty in Turkey.   

Mark, to this day, anyone born in Turkey is deemed a Turk citizen under their laws... which, unlike the US, recognize dual citizenship.  They also have universal conscription of males 20-22.  A son of US parents born in Turkey will be conscripted into the Turk army at 20 if they know he's in-country.  During my two tours there, we had a few sons shipped home before 20.  

They have courageous soldiers, but those poor guys don't eat so well.  And corporal punishment is alive and well in the Turk army.  A sentry found sleeping on post may be shot out of hand with no due process.  

[Bobbo]

My only question would be why wasn't the "long" form released in 2008?

I don't know about other states but VA only has one birth certificate and it looks very similar to the latest one released. Because of this the one from 2008 always looked a little "fishy" to me.

Most, if not all, state health departments have a "short form" certificate.  It is an official computer printed document that is accepted as legal proof of live birth for all legal purposes.  Since this printed version was rejected by the "birthers", he had a photocopied version of the full form made.

[Walküre]

They have courageous soldiers, but those poor guys don't eat so well.  And corporal punishment is alive and well in the Turk army.  A sentry found sleeping on post may be shot out of hand with no due process.  

Off subject, I know, but years ago, when my dad was in the Navy, and in Intelligence, a Turkish ship was in port at Long Beach. One of the Turk sailors, was brought back to the ship by the police. They were attempting to hang him, when the Navy stepped in, and said they couldn't. They immediately cast off, went out into International Waters, hung him, and returned to port....

True story.

R

[3fan4life]

His birth country is actually a moot point, since his mother is an American citizen.

That's Not As Cut and Dried as you would think.....

I have an uncle that spent 28 years in the Air Force.... He was stationed in Turkey with his family when one of my cousins was born.

Due to circumstances that I don't recall my cousin was born in a Turkish hospital instead of an Air Force Hospital.

Because of this he was initially determined to be a Turkish citizen and my uncle had to go through a ton of red tape to get him declared an American Citizen.

As a matter of fact the red tape was so bad that he had to extend his tour of duty in Turkey.   

Mark, to this day, anyone born in Turkey is deemed a Turk citizen under their laws... which, unlike the US, recognize dual citizenship.  They also have universal conscription of males 20-22.  A son of US parents born in Turkey will be conscripted into the Turk army at 20 if they know he's in-country.  During my two tours there, we had a few sons shipped home before 20.  

They have courageous soldiers, but those poor guys don't eat so well.  And corporal punishment is alive and well in the Turk army.  A sentry found sleeping on post may be shot out of hand with no due process.  

I'll have to E-mail my cousin and let him know that he needs to contact the Turkish Army ASAP. 

[X Ring]

+ 1      I still don't believe for a second that he was born here.

he wasn't, he was born in Hawaii!! 

His birth country is actually a moot point, since his mother is an American citizen.

Actually no it's not.  If you are born in another country you are not an American citizen irregardless of the American citizenship of your parents UNLESS they are U.S. Military or U.S. Government personell stationed  in that country.  I was born at the 81st Tactical Fighter Wing Hospital, RAF Bentwaters, England.  My Dad was U.S. Air Force stationed there.  I have a U.S. State Department Birth Certificate.

Marty

[Chrisj CMA]

I remember reading something about the law in 1961 was that if in fact he was born outside of the US his mom wasnt old enough to "transmit" citizenship.  I agree, too much time wasted on this.  But the fault isint with "birthers" its with "president" Obama himself for creating the controversy and riding it for so long in an attempt to gain politically.............

[Sludge]

I remember reading something about the law in 1961 was that if in fact he was born outside of the US his mom wasnt old enough to "transmit" citizenship.  I agree, too much time wasted on this.  But the fault isint with "birthers" its with "president" Obama himself for creating the controversy and riding it for so long in an attempt to gain politically.............

I agree.  The law in 1961 would not have let his mother transmit citizenship. Now the law is changed and at present this is not an issue for an underage parent or their child.  While a technical point of law might be made to disqualify Obama as president had this been proven to be true, I still accept him (as much as I dislike it) as my president because under current law he would be qualified and I think that to pursue that point of law to disqualify him would be just plain stupid and petty.  I accept the long form that was just released by the State of Hawaii as proof of qualification.  I did not accept the Certificate of Live Birth though.  I wont go into those reasons here because Im not trying to author a book and that point is now moot.

Is the citizenship of a presidental candidate a valid question?  I believe it certainly is.  It was a valid question that needed to be answered.  Our constitution requires it.  There should have been no hesitation on clearing this up for Obama or any candidate at any level of government if the law stipulates it as a requirement for the position sought. 

I hope this is over.  Now lets kick this idiot out in the next election!

[Willow]

Actually no it's not.  If you are born in another country you are not an American citizen irregardless of the American citizenship of your parents UNLESS they are U.S. Military or U.S. Government personell stationed  in that country.  

Dead wrong, assuming, of course, that "irregardless" is intended to mean what I think it was intended to mean.

 But the fault isint with "birthers" its with "president" Obama himself for creating the controversy and riding it for so long in an attempt to gain politically.............

I do strongly disagree.  Were the "birthers" not picking at straws instead of concentrating on the real issues there would have been no controversy.  The only poilitical gain the President achieved from this issue was allowing people acting silly to appear silly.    

Incidentally, Jeff, didn't you once explain the quotes around the President's title as being due to your belief he wasn't qualified to be president because of his place of birth?  If that's the case, isn't it time to man up and drop the quotes?  

[Bobbo]

I remember reading something about the law in 1961 was that if in fact he was born outside of the US his mom wasnt old enough to "transmit" citizenship.  I agree, too much time wasted on this.  But the fault isint with "birthers" its with "president" Obama himself for creating the controversy and riding it for so long in an attempt to gain politically.............

There has never been an age limit that a mother can "transmit citizenship".  You might be confusing this with the requirement that a person born outside of the US to American parents register in the US for citizenship before their 18th birthday.

[Jess from VA]

http://www.greencardlawyers.com/citizenship/FAQchildbornabroad.html

http://www.greencardlawyers.com/citizenship/citizenbybirth.html#Chart%20to%20Determine%20Citizenship%20Rules

[Bobbo]

I agree with Willow.


PS:  I normally don't post if I agree with someone, unless it adds something to the thread.  Since some on this board believe I only answer in a negative way, I will do this only once.    

[Bobbo]

http://www.greencardlawyers.com/citizenship/FAQchildbornabroad.html

http://www.greencardlawyers.com/citizenship/citizenbybirth.html#Chart%20to%20Determine%20Citizenship%20Rules

Thank you for adding to the evidence that Obama's mother qualified to have President Obama declared a US citizen from birth.   

[Serk]

http://www.greencardlawyers.com/citizenship/FAQchildbornabroad.html

http://www.greencardlawyers.com/citizenship/citizenbybirth.html#Chart%20to%20Determine%20Citizenship%20Rules

Thank you for adding to the evidence that Obama's mother qualified to have President Obama declared a US citizen from birth.   

Okay, first off, at this point this whole thing is pedantic, and purely just arguing for the sake of arguing, but...

IF he wasn't born in Hawaii, then, from the chart here:

http://www.greencardlawyers.com/citizenship/citizenbybirth.html#Chart%20to%20Determine%20Citizenship%20Rules

He was born between 12/24/1952 and 11/13/1986 with only one parent being a US Citizen, thus this applies:

If one parent is a U.S. citizen, the U.S. citizen parent must have resided in the U.S. for 10 years, at least 5 of which were after age 14.

Now, according to the long form birth certificate just released, his mother was 18 at the time of his birth, making it impossible for her to transfer her US citizenship to him, as an 18 year old couldn't have lived in the US for 10 years, at least 5 of which were after age 14.

Now, as I said, this is all purely academic at this point, he was born in Hawaii, automatically making him a natural born US citizen, but if he hadn't been born in Hawaii, then the above would have come into play, so his mother could not have transferred her citizenship to her under the law at the time, only the geographic location of his birth could (And did) do so.

[Sludge]

I remember reading something about the law in 1961 was that if in fact he was born outside of the US his mom wasnt old enough to "transmit" citizenship.  I agree, too much time wasted on this.  But the fault isint with "birthers" its with "president" Obama himself for creating the controversy and riding it for so long in an attempt to gain politically.............

There has never been an age limit that a mother can "transmit citizenship".  You might be confusing this with the requirement that a person born outside of the US to American parents register in the US for citizenship before their 18th birthday.

Bobbo, what Serk stated above was what I was referring to in my last post.  Perhaps you are mistaken in thinking that some of us havent looked this up prior to making comments.  As I said, before no matter where he was born, under current law he would be a citizen (because his mother was older than 16) and thus eligible for the office.  That is the law I would support.  However, there is a valid legal argument based on what Serk posted above no matter your feelings on this matter. No doubt that would have come into play had Obama been found to have been born in Kenya, and it would have been a valid argument. Provided that the grandparents had not completed "Expedited Naturalization" before Obama turned 18.

[Bobbo]

He was born between 12/24/1952 and 11/13/1986 with only one parent being a US Citizen, thus this applies:

If one parent is a U.S. citizen, the U.S. citizen parent must have resided in the U.S. for 10 years, at least 5 of which were after age 14.

Now, according to the long form birth certificate just released, his mother was 18 at the time of his birth, making it impossible for her to transfer her US citizenship to him, as an 18 year old couldn't have lived in the US for 10 years, at least 5 of which were after age 14.

"The devil is in the details" as they say...

I would insert "at that time" after the highlighted area.  One or two more years in the US before President Obama turns 18, and POOF!,  US citizen from birth!

[BradValk48237]

Anybody read this?

The President began blaming the economic crisis on bankers and financiers, the quest for profit, and the self-interest basis of capitalism:
“   Primarily this is because rulers of the exchange of mankind's goods have failed through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and have abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men. True they have tried, but their efforts have been cast in the pattern of an outworn tradition. Faced by failure of credit they have proposed only the lending of more money. Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence....The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit."

At a time of financial crisis, this was his belief......

[Bobbo]

Anybody read this?

The President began blaming the economic crisis on bankers and financiers, the quest for profit, and the self-interest basis of capitalism:
“   Primarily this is because rulers of the exchange of mankind's goods have failed through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and have abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men. True they have tried, but their efforts have been cast in the pattern of an outworn tradition. Faced by failure of credit they have proposed only the lending of more money. Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence....The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit."

At a time of financial crisis, this was his belief......

Yes, times were very hard in 1933...

[donaldcc]

  interesting that the discussions in this post mirror the controversy across the news and nation.  Some "birthers"  will never be satisfied.  

As I have posted before . . .



Regardless of whether you like him or not, HE IS A U.S. CITIZEN.  Why not drop this senseless argument and move on to something worth discussing??  

Or, as I think about it, what about getting out for a nice ride on your Valkyrie . . .weather permitting.

[Chrisj CMA]

Actually no it's not.  If you are born in another country you are not an American citizen irregardless of the American citizenship of your parents UNLESS they are U.S. Military or U.S. Government personell stationed  in that country.  

Dead wrong, assuming, of course, that "irregardless" is intended to mean what I think it was intended to mean.

 But the fault isint with "birthers" its with "president" Obama himself for creating the controversy and riding it for so long in an attempt to gain politically.............

I do strongly disagree.  Were the "birthers" not picking at straws instead of concentrating on the real issues there would have been no controversy.  The only poilitical gain the President achieved from this issue was allowing people acting silly to appear silly.    

Incidentally, Jeff, didn't you once explain the quotes around the President's title as being due to your belief he wasn't qualified to be president because of his place of birth?  If that's the case, isn't it time to man up and drop the quotes?  

exactly Willow.....still not qualified and still not sure theres not sumpthin up with his documents.....its just obvious that its fruitless to protest, he holds all the cards.  When he starts fulfilling his oath, upholding the constitution and starts leading America instead of trashing Her, I might take off the ""xx""

[G-Man]

I think the point Obama was making was that by asking only him for this document, it was simply a form of political harassment,....

Regardless of the reasons behind the request,....if there are only 2 prerequisites to be President, and both can be proven by the same document, why hold out?  Show the document...no more "harassment".

Obama himself,....and no body else,...dragged this thing on.  Regardless of political beliefs, this can't be denied.  And because he dragged it along, and spent millions to do so, there are still lingering questions.  Why the drag and why spend the money?  Now he'll let those questions go on, unanswered, so folks can make their own inferences, whether they are right or wrong, because this is what he wants....confusion and finger pointing.  This has been the plan and helps keeps liberalism afloat.

[G-Man]

Don't blame the president because no one in the history of our nation ever thought producing a BC should be a requirement.  Probably should be, but until that day........

But it IS a requirement to demonstrate age and citizenship to become President.  You have to be 35 years old and be a born citizen of this country.  The ONLY thing you can't blame Obama for is that he's the first one they actually asked to prove it......but it still is a requirement.

[G-Man]

.....the latest release is called the "long form" version that the "birthers" said didn't exist.....

I thought it was the Hospital that said it didn't exist, and now all of a sudden it does???

[Chrisj CMA]

.....the latest release is called the "long form" version that the "birthers" said didn't exist.....

I thought it was the Hospital that said it didn't exist, and now all of a sudden it does???

Ya, ok so we have this image of a birth certificate....why the big deal?  Whats to hide?  Doesnt really add up, lingers of the distinct odour of fish, but my comments would be my opinions and feelings so Ill keep them to myself for now.......

[G-Man]

Actually no it's not.  If you are born in another country you are not an American citizen irregardless of the American citizenship of your parents UNLESS they are U.S. Military or U.S. Government personell stationed  in that country.  

Dead wrong, assuming, of course, that "irregardless" is intended to mean what I think it was intended to mean.

 But the fault isint with "birthers" its with "president" Obama himself for creating the controversy and riding it for so long in an attempt to gain politically.............

I do strongly disagree.  Were the "birthers" not picking at straws instead of concentrating on the real issues there would have been no controversy.  The only poilitical gain the President achieved from this issue was allowing people acting silly to appear silly.    

Incidentally, Jeff, didn't you once explain the quotes around the President's title as being due to your belief he wasn't qualified to be president because of his place of birth?  If that's the case, isn't it time to man up and drop the quotes?  

It may have been the "birthers" picking initially, but the polls demonstrated that the longer it dragged, more folks wondered.  They wondered if he was really a citizen, and they also wondered what he was hiding.  Obama dragged this out, nobody else.

[Bobbo]

It may have been the "birthers" picking initially, but the polls demonstrated that the longer it dragged, more folks wondered.  They wondered if he was really a citizen, and they also wondered what he was hiding.  Obama dragged this out, nobody else.

Only if you define "folks" as Republicans, especially conservative ones.   

The "birthers", recently led by Trump, are the ones who dragged this out, by rejecting the same certificate that is accepted as legal proof of US birth by every other agency.

[Chiefy]

Don't blame the president because no one in the history of our nation ever thought producing a BC should be a requirement.  Probably should be, but until that day........

But it IS a requirement to demonstrate age and citizenship to become President.  You have to be 35 years old and be a born citizen of this country.  The ONLY thing you can't blame Obama for is that he's the first one they actually asked to prove it......but it still is a requirement.

Sure it's a requirement.  But there's no one to show it to.  What person or agency checks every candidate when they announce they're running?

Until some agency or government position is appointed to check these things, he doesn't have to show it to you or me on demand, any more then your neighbor has to show his to you.

[DIGGER]

President Barack Obama's Forged Birth Certificate Revealed April 27, 2011	powered by Aeva

[Bob E.]

This thread demonstrates the exact reason it was a complete waste of time of him to even respond to this nonsense.  Frankly I wish he had just let it go because it really serves him no purpose, helps the more "responsible" republicans, and still doesn't satisfy the crazy conspiracy theorists.  The state of our nations discourse is really sad.

[Chrisj CMA]

President Barack Obama's Forged Birth Certificate Revealed April 27, 2011

Well, and then theres that........who wudda thunk it

[Chiefy]

President Barack Obama's Forged Birth Certificate Revealed April 27, 2011

Well, and then theres that........who wudda thunk it

At the end of the day, most folks are going to believe what they did when they got up.

The questions I have are:

Who is this person presenting this video?
What does he know about verifying documents?
Is he some kind of professional that needs to know Adobe inside and out?
If the president is so crafty and can spend "millions" covering this stuff up, how could his team have produced a document that can so easily be discredited?
Why isn't the government of Hawaii saying this document is not official?
Why do people accept the word of strangers on the internet so easily without further verification?

Don't read into this.  Maybe the document is false.  But that amateur video presented in this fashion is just meant to preach to the choir.

[Chrisj CMA]

Chiefy.......Heres what gets me to a point where I CANT dismiss this guys claim of a hacked document.  Both the documents Obama released just looked TOO pretty, too perfect.  Now back in 1961 information was not entered on line or in a computer, it was typed.  The first document was obviously reproduced with data that had been subsequently put on a computer......not saying thats bad, just that its not a "picture" of the original.  Ok, maybe thats ok, never thought much about if its not ok, I would have thought a photo of the original would have maybe prevented all these questions.

But, this second document is passed off as a photo....you can see the center binding of the book.  Well, Im sorry, I was in the military back in 1977 when we had to have most of our forms typed on a typewriter.  Im sure we had better machines than that hospital would have had in 1961, however, documents hardly ever looked nearly as perfect as that certificate as far as the typing.  Besides, how do you type on a page in a book.........seems it should be hand written if its bound in a book, but what do I know, maybe they have a way, but the type is still too perfect.  Maybe the clerk said...."oh my this the the future president, lets get the golden typewriter out and preserve this page in an acid free dark, dry space for 50 years so it looks perfect someday".  NOT!  That new document would not look like that after 50 years of being in a clerks book on a shelf.  Just aint right, so the hacking business makes sense to me.

[Chiefy]

Interesting points Chris, and for all I know you could be dead on.


But looking at the date, the line is not perfectly straight, just like on some typewriters.  Looking at things like his name, some of the letters are lighter then others, just like a manual typewriter when the keys aren't struck with the same pressure.  

And I would assume the document was prepared, then put in a book later.

[Bobbo]

President Barack Obama's Forged Birth Certificate Revealed April 27, 2011

I wonder how many more of these videos will be made?  I posted a similar video earlier in this thread; I guess you missed that one!

Anyone with a basic understanding of modern scanners with OCR and layer separation would instantly recognize what is happening in the videos.  Today's scanners in conjunction with Adobe products can be set to separate scanned documents into layers based on certain factors, such as text, hue, tone, and saturation.  This is evident in that each layer they clicked on had a similar tone.  He fixated on the date with the different "1" that was on a different layer.  That is to be expected, as it had a different tone than the adjacent numbers.

The telling evidence of separated layers is when the layer with the majority of the text was turned off.  The background behind the text was white, indicating that text was extracted from it.  If it was actually a composite of artist rendered layers, the background would be consistent.

I think many of these videos are made to see what reaction they will get, or attempting to make the next "viral" video.   

[G-Man]

It may have been the "birthers" picking initially, but the polls demonstrated that the longer it dragged, more folks wondered.  They wondered if he was really a citizen, and they also wondered what he was hiding.  Obama dragged this out, nobody else.

Only if you define "folks" as Republicans, especially conservative ones.   

The "birthers", recently led by Trump, are the ones who dragged this out, by rejecting the same certificate that is accepted as legal proof of US birth by every other agency.

I was referring to the Independants.  The polled independants were biggining to wonder.  And since he needs their votes, he caved.  He didn't expect this.  He thought it was trivial, which it may have been (this is not the point), but the longer it hung around, due to HIS inactivity, is grew legs.

[Willow]

President Barack Obama's Forged Birth Certificate Revealed April 27, 2011

Well, and then theres that........who wudda thunk it

LOL!  I could give you a list of at least a half dozen names without taking a minute to think about it.

It's evidence that people will believe what they want to believe.  It's not at all evidence that what someone wants to believe is true.    

It's amazing how few of the "aha! moments" in our lives involve our seeing proof that changes our minds.