Hydrolock

[blackvalk]

Once again, another question about hydrolock.

Today, 55 miles from home, I went out to my bike to see gas leaking from the left side. I took a chance and tried starting it. It locked up right now!

I stopped and pulled the 3 left spark plugs and cranked it. Gas shot out (A LOT) but locked up again. I pulled the right 3 plugs and cranked it again. I re-installed the 6 plugs and it started as if nothing was wrong.

I stopped for gas and it started again. I got home safely but now what do I need to do?

History of my bike is, I just rebuilt the original petcock a week or two ago. It has run perfectly since. It is a black tank and it was baking in the sun with an almost empty tank.

I am thinking about buying a new petcock and a re-build kit and have Daniel Meyer help me re-build the old one PROPERLY as a spare!

Do I need to do something with the middle carb on the left side where I found gas on the plug and blew gas out of the spark plug hole?

If I need to disassemble the bowl on that carb, do I need new gaskets? When inspecting, what am I looking for? How do you know when a float is sticking?

Sorry for the long post but as you know when your Valkyrie is down, YOU JUST CAN'T BELIEVE IT!

One more thing, I am not interested in changing to a PINGLE!

BILL

[Valk_ca]

Don't know if they're any more dependable than the OEM but Pingel does make vacuum model petcocks. Others that are using them would be able to speak for their longevity. Personally, I did switch to a Pingel. Each to his own. When I was investigating options/remedies one thing that made a whole lot of sense was to give the diaphragm more vacuum by T'ing into the #6 vacuum line and providing constant vacuum. A fluttering diaphragm just sounded like something set up to breakdown.

[X Ring]

You have GOT to be kidding me!!  You rebuild your petcock, in less than a week it hydrolocks you and YOU STILL TRUST IT?  Trying to start it without removing all of the sparkplugs after you saw fuel flowing freely off the Valk was, without a doubt, the stupidest thing you could have done.     And you did it twice.  You are EXTREMELY lucky!!    

If you are going to continue to use that POS Honda design then I HIGHLY recommend you get a Dan-Marc fuel solenoid and install it between the petcock and carb bank tee.  At least you will have an electric valve that will close when you shut off the bike.

Afa, not wanting to hear it, too bad.  BUY A PINGEL!!!

Marty

[Mr Steve]

Forget to shut off the pingle and it is just as bad as a broken stock, if not worse.  Your real problem is some gummed up carb floats.  Get them cleaned.  Even if the petcock was allowing an unfettered flow of gas, it should not lock if the floats are properly working.

Once carbs cleaned, rebuild it again if you want to stay stock.  If you are worried about it and want to periodically test it, pull the vacuum line for it and then see how long the bike will run.  If it's good the bike will stop running around the same time it does if you just shut the fuel off.

I'm like you and never wanted to go with pingle.  I stayed with stock and just added it to my regular maintenance list of things to check. 

[dubsider]

Reading these posts have created enough fear...   ... please post a link to the recommended PINGLE.. I understand there are two variations.. which is preferred and why?  

I ride every day and regularly use Startron, so I hope the carbs are in good shape.

[Tundra]

I never had a problem with mine, until I did. Then it was non stop. I did go to Pingle mechanical. I really got sick and tired of working on it. It's not hard to remember, just like tieing your shoes, or closing the door?

[Hoser]

Forget to shut off the pingle and it is just as bad as a broken stock, if not worse.  Your real problem is some gummed up carb floats.  Get them cleaned.  Even if the petcock was allowing an unfettered flow of gas, it should not lock if the floats are properly working.

Once carbs cleaned, rebuild it again if you want to stay stock.  If you are worried about it and want to periodically test it, pull the vacuum line for it and then see how long the bike will run.  If it's good the bike will stop running around the same time it does if you just shut the fuel off.

I'm like you and never wanted to go with pingle.  I stayed with stock and just added it to my regular maintenance list of things to check. 

Us oldies but goodies grew up with manual petcocks, turning it off and on was as automatic as hitting the starter.  Oh wait, I mean the kickstarter, most bikes didn't have them there fancy lectric starters, and the ones that did had both.     hoser

[rodeo1]

the bottom line here is no matter what you use for a petcock, if the gas is leaking past the needle and seat it will fill the cylinder. there is way more than it would take to hydrolock a motor sitting in your fuel bowls. when your pistons are at top dead center therei s only a fraction of an inch clearance between it and the top of the combustion chamber. a table spoon full will do it. i agree fully with hoser. remember that carburated cars lived forever with NO petcock at all. petcocks became required in old bikes in the day that had amal carbs and the like that had no fuel bowls, no needles and seats. keep the carbs clean and you shouldn't have any problems. c'mon a can of carb cleaner, mmo, and a few spoonfuls of stabil or seafoam in the off season is really cheap insurance.

[X Ring]

Reading these posts have created enough fear...   ... please post a link to the recommended PINGLE.. I understand there are two variations.. which is preferred and why?  

I ride every day and regularly use Startron, so I hope the carbs are in good shape.

Here's the one I use on both of my Valks at the best price I could find.  http://www.easternperformance.com/products.php?product=Pingel-Hex-Chrome-90-Degree-Forward-Petcock-for-Harley  Of the manual Pingels, there are two different finishes, aluminum or chrome, and two shapes, round or hex shaped.  The one I gave you the link for is the chromed hex shape.  Pingel does make a vacuum version but, iirc, it is more expensive than the stock one.

Marty

[dubsider]

Reading these posts have created enough fear...   ... please post a link to the recommended PINGLE.. I understand there are two variations.. which is preferred and why?  

I ride every day and regularly use Startron, so I hope the carbs are in good shape.

Here's the one I use on both of my Valks at the best price I could find.  http://www.easternperformance.com/products.php?product=Pingel-Hex-Chrome-90-Degree-Forward-Petcock-for-Harley  Of the manual Pingels, there are two different finishes, aluminum or chrome, and two shapes, round or hex shaped.  The one I gave you the link for is the chromed hex shape.  Pingel does make a vacuum version but, iirc, it is more expensive than the stock one.

Marty

THanks X .. would I need any other doodads, or thingamajigs and such? or just the pringle part?  Is it as easy as out with the old and in with the new ??

[X Ring]

A worm gear hose clamp.  The nipple on the Pingel is 1/4" and the stock hose clamp won't close enough to secure the fuel line.  Make sure the screw head faces the right side of the Valk or you won't be able to have the Pingel turned off while you unscrew the hose clamp.  Don't ask me how I know this.   

Marty

[Ricky-D]

Well blackvalk, it would seem as if the rebuild job is suspect since it did not do the job; and you really don't know positively that is was good (even) for a little while, because the float valve in the middle carburetor could have been saving you all along!

Possibly you allowed a bit of junk to enter the gas stream when rebuilding the stopcock and that is the culprit, but the fact of a failing stopcock cannot be dismissed.

A newly rebuilt stopcock properly assembled should correct that problem.

Regarding the leaking carburetor: Remove the float bowl careful to avoid damaging the gasket. Allow a little gas to run through the valve and wash out the contaminant. With a light touch moving the float the gas should stop running. If not, remove the float and the pin and inspect for something lodged right there at the valve body. After clearing the obstruction, replace the pin and float assembly and test again with a little gas flow. It should be working Ok by then.

Be very careful attaching the float bowl. The screws are intentionally soft and will break easily. It is very important you use the correct screw driver bit to fit the heads of the screws. 

***

[Patrick]

The petcock doesn't have to fail to get a fuel-lock.. There is enough fuel in the chamber and lines/hoses to lock a cylinder if the needle leaks.. The best insurance against the dreaded fuel-lock is a fuel filter.. The best insurance against damage when a fuel-lock occurs is to just ' tap ' the starter button.. You did learn that all the sparklers should be removed when a lock occurs..
Its very easy [ and I think mandatory] to learn to go thru a ' pre-flight/post-flight ' mental checklist.. When the right hand goes toward the key, the left hand should be going toward the fuel valve..
As far as the petcock is concerned, the OEM units do have a reputation for leaking even when in the off position.. That little ball has to set just perfectly or they wiil let fuel to pass and it will just add to the problem if the float valve decides to leak..
These bikes have very few issues, but, fuel-locks happen to be one of them.. There are just a couple simple things to do to help try to eliminate this problem..

[Ricky-D]

Patrick writes:

The petcock doesn't have to fail to get a fuel-lock.. There is enough fuel in the chamber and lines/hoses to lock a cylinder if the needle leaks..

 

There was a discussion a few months ago on this particular subject and the consensus was that with a good petcock a lock-up could not occur.  That due to the capillary action within the system hoses no gasoline would pass since the petcock end would allow nothing to pass (air or gas) but rather hold the gasoline in the hoses.

Even so, one must realize the float bowl while at a normal gasoline level is not "topped off" and there remains some room for the addition of more gas, before the carburetor bowl and assembly is overflowed allowing gasoline to enter the intake riser and further the cylinder area.

I have no idea of exactly how much gasoline it takes (volume) to lock a cylinder. Maybe less than an ounce. Maybe just a few cc's.

I do maintain however,  that the petcock has to be bad and leaky and allow gasoline to pass in order for a lock-up to occur.   

Naturally, with good functioning float valves, a lock-up should never occur.

Maybe there are a lot of leaking petcocks out among the Valkyries and the only reason there are so few lock-ups is a testament to the carburetors and the float valves silently doing their job perfectly!

***

[sugerbear]

i've asked this question before and never had an answer.

anybody use a vacuum pingle? is it any better that stock?

if a pingle is the answer to the "lousy oem", then a vacuum pingle should be too?

[gordonv]

I can only add to this thread a little piece of advise.

Once a week, Monday going off to work, I would turn off the petcock while riding on the hwy, and insure that it is functioning properly.

Like mentioned, even in the off position, it may not be seated correctly and still allow fuel to flow, and you have to give it a little more of a turn to feel that click.

[fudgie]

A worm gear hose clamp.  The nipple on the Pingel is 1/4" and the stock hose clamp won't close enough to secure the fuel line.  Make sure the screw head faces the right side of the Valk or you won't be able to have the Pingel turned off while you unscrew the hose clamp.  Don't ask me how I know this.   

Marty

Half way disagree  . I have my hose clamp screw on the left side of the bike, at the top. Makes it easier for me to work on one side of the bike instead having to work on both sides of the bike. Plus I got a engine hanger cover on the right side.

[valkyriemc]

i've asked this question before and never had an answer.

anybody use a vacuum pingle? is it any better that stock?

if a pingle is the answer to the "lousy oem", then a vacuum pingle should be too?

Yup I installed a vacuum model and like it fine. Its a quality product but it is more expensive. Shop for your best price. As you probably know there are hundreds of posts about the general problem of faulty pets, spanning many years.  I wish they would make a sticky for the Dan Marc fuel cutoff, Pingel manual, Pingel vacuum model, and fuel filters to help make the info easier to find.  Maybe some day they will. All I can say I'm real happy all this P/C stuff is in my rear view mirror. Anyway here ya go; and good luck!

Vacuum Pingel
http://www.pingelonline.com/powerflo_1311_vacuum.htm

Manual Pingel -Credit; XRing
http://www.easternperformance.com/products.php?product=Pingel-Hex-Chrome-90-Degree-Forward-Petcock-for-Harley

April's discussion;
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,27078.0.html

New vacuum line;
http://redeye.ecrater.com/p/2063941/pingel-petcock-vacuum-line-for-honda

Golan 10 micron filter;
http://www.xtremepowersportsusa.com/eshopprod_cat_7083-39558_brand_1630-370-376-242_product_1062636.GOLAN_PRODUCTS_INC_PEAK_FLOW.htm

http://www.jpcycles.com/product/720-280

Dan Marc;
http://www.horseapple.com/Valkyrie/Tech_Tips/Fuel_Shutoff/fuel_shutoff.html

[Dougs2000IS]

All of you got me worried so I purchased the 12 Volt Multi Fuel Shut Off Valve. I am going to install this with the oem valve. Please let me know if anyone has done this. I thought I read something about enough flow at one point or another. Thanks
Doug

[sugerbear]

valkyriemc:  thanks. i thought i hadn't missed ANY post, looking for that info.

i don't mind spending a little more for quality.

don't need one right now but...................

[Patrick]

Regarding Doug's question,, I don't remember anyone having a fuel flow issue with a proper installed electric shut-off valve,but, my rememberer can fail at times.. There have been some complaints regarding quick-disconnects though..  I've heard of flow problems with these shut-off valves in some automotive applications..

[blackvalk]

Everyone, thanks for all the input.

I am ordering a new oem valve tomorrow. Ricky D, you were right, my rebuild job is definitely suspect. Thanks for being so kind in your description. I thought I had tested the valve by shutting it off while riding and starving the engine, but I may have had a memory laps.

Marty, (X Ring) you were right that removing only the 3 left spark plugs was stupid. That's where I saw the gas and thought it made sense to only remove those 3.

Frankly, I didn't read about this subject before this happened because it hadn't happened YET.

I seldom read the other over worked posts on "Car Tires" because I have no interest in it. Not that it's wrong.

Thanks again,
Bill

[X Ring]

Bill, car tires is one thing.  If you have no interest in them then don't read the threads.  Hydrolock is a completely different matter.  Read any thread dealing with malfunctions so you know what the symptoms are and learn how to deal with it.  I try to read just about every thread I can in Tech every day.  I'm always trying to learn something new that may help me now or in the future.

Marty

[blackvalk]

You're right!

[Rocketman]

Patrick writes:

The petcock doesn't have to fail to get a fuel-lock.. There is enough fuel in the chamber and lines/hoses to lock a cylinder if the needle leaks..

 

There was a discussion a few months ago on this particular subject and the consensus was that with a good petcock a lock-up could not occur.  That due to the capillary action within the system hoses no gasoline would pass since the petcock end would allow nothing to pass (air or gas) but rather hold the gasoline in the hoses.

Even so, one must realize the float bowl while at a normal gasoline level is not "topped off" and there remains some room for the addition of more gas, before the carburetor bowl and assembly is overflowed allowing gasoline to enter the intake riser and further the cylinder area.

I have no idea of exactly how much gasoline it takes (volume) to lock a cylinder. Maybe less than an ounce. Maybe just a few cc's.

I do maintain however,  that the petcock has to be bad and leaky and allow gasoline to pass in order for a lock-up to occur.   

Naturally, with good functioning float valves, a lock-up should never occur.

Maybe there are a lot of leaking petcocks out among the Valkyries and the only reason there are so few lock-ups is a testament to the carburetors and the float valves silently doing their job perfectly!

***

Concur.  It can be likened to pulling a straw out of a glass of water while holding your finger over the end.  As long as the straw is intact, and your finger stays put, the water stays put.  As soon as the finger moves (petcock leaks), the water drips out.  Until then, there's nothing to overflow the carbs WITH.

One theory was that it was a thermal expansion of the fuel in the bowls that overflowed and locked the cylinder.  That is a source of fuel to overflow, but I'm not convinced it would be enough.  One of these days, I'll run the numbers and determine how likely it is.

[Rocketman]

I can only add to this thread a little piece of advise.

Once a week, Monday going off to work, I would turn off the petcock while riding on the hwy, and insure that it is functioning properly.

FYI:  This is only a first-order approximation.  I do this as a rough test, but a lock can occur with a very slow leak rate, it will just take longer to happen.  If you're not leaking enough fuel to feed the engine, the engine will die.  This test will only tell you you don't have a large leak.  You might still have a small leak, that would take overnight to lock, rather than locking while you're in buying groceries.
The comprehensive test is to remove the intake runners, and place dry clean paper towels under the carbs.  Leave it in whatever configuration you think might be leaking, and after 15 minutes (or more), look for drips.  No drip= no leak.
Granted, that's more work, so therefore I do the rough test more frequently.
(a quicker test is to pull the hose off the petcock and see if you have a drip there.  That tells you nothing about your carb float valves, but it's still important info.)

[highcountry]

Forget to shut off the pingle and it is just as bad as a broken stock, if not worse.  Your real problem is some gummed up carb floats.  Get them cleaned.  Even if the petcock was allowing an unfettered flow of gas, it should not lock if the floats are properly working.

Once carbs cleaned, rebuild it again if you want to stay stock.  If you are worried about it and want to periodically test it, pull the vacuum line for it and then see how long the bike will run.  If it's good the bike will stop running around the same time it does if you just shut the fuel off.

I'm like you and never wanted to go with pingle.  I stayed with stock and just added it to my regular maintenance list of things to check. 

Us oldies but goodies grew up with manual petcocks, turning it off and on was as automatic as hitting the starter.  Oh wait, I mean the kickstarter, most bikes didn't have them there fancy lectric starters, and the ones that did had both.     hoser

Yep, same with me.  All of this newfangled stuff like starters, headlights that come on automatically, engines that turn off when the kickstand goes down when in gear, turn signals, disc brakes, cst wheels, hydraulic brakes, etc.  

I went with the manual Pingel - - no problema.

[Gryphon Rider]

the bottom line here is no matter what you use for a petcock, if the gas is leaking past the needle and seat it will fill the cylinder. there is way more than it would take to hydrolock a motor sitting in your fuel bowls. when your pistons are at top dead center therei s only a fraction of an inch clearance between it and the top of the combustion chamber. a table spoon full will do it. i agree fully with hoser. remember that carburated cars lived forever with NO petcock at all. petcocks became required in old bikes in the day that had amal carbs and the like that had no fuel bowls, no needles and seats. keep the carbs clean and you shouldn't have any problems. c'mon a can of carb cleaner, mmo, and a few spoonfuls of stabil or seafoam in the off season is really cheap insurance.

Carbureted cars don't need petcocks because the gas tank is lower than the carb(s).  Fuel doesn't flow up hill without a fuel pump working.

For others following this thread, based on a 253cc cylinder and a 9.81:1 compression ratio, the combustion chamber is 25.8cc.  There are 15cc to a tablespoon.

[Patrick]

Yep, the complete design of the fuel system has to be considered regarding the possibility of fuel-lock..
Regarding Amal's;; There have been several mentions of the carburetors over the years, specially about the lack of floats, valves and the related chambers.. Maybe I  have not seen any really old Amal's.. I'm only familiar to those from the mid-fifties into the seventies and I've never seen one without a float chamber.. Thats not to say that they don't exist, I've just never seen one and can't find any reference to them.. I've worked on a fair number of old british motorbikes, I like them..Well, most of them weren't old at the time.. 

[Ricky-D]

All the newer small motor driven things like lawn mowers have carburetors without float bowls.

That's why you have to pump that little clear plastic bulb.

It gets the gas into the small chamber where the jet resides and running keeps the gas flowing.

Float-bowl-less

***

[rmrc51]

When I first bought my Valk Trike and read all these posts regarding the dreaded HYDROLOCK, the very first upgrade I did was to install the DanMarc electric shut off. And I also switched to a Pingel. (Double security!) I've since gotten in the habit of just reaching underneath and shutting the Pingel off when ever the trike will be shut down for more then a few minutes. I have two nice engine hangers from one of our suppliers in place in which one is specifically made for Pingel users. It has no hole where the original circular petcock was located. For me, it was well worth the 'peace of mind'! Just my opinion.    

[MP]

Fuel leaking into the cylinders is NOT a likely thing.  In fact, it is very rare. As in all things mechanical, it does sometimes happen.  And when it does, it can create big $ problems.  But, it is rare.

The Valk is mechanical, so it does have issues.  But, overall, it has very few of them.  It is a fine machine.

Reading forums like this, about any subject, it always seems like the item in discussion is prone to failure. But remember, for every one on here with a problem, there are hundreds who do NOT have that problem.

MP

[gordonv]

When would it be advisable to attempt starting a motorcycle that is leaking gasoline? 

And, if fuel leakage into the cylinders is a high possibility, does anyone remove the spark plugs and crank the bike after it has been sitting a while?

NEVER start a vehicle with leaking gas, unless you want a fire.

Removing the plugs is what you are suppose to do, crank the engine to expel the fuel.

Fix the problem. A lot more detail for that. You need to be more clear as to what you are trying to accomplish, trying to drive it home so you can fix, or you are trying to fix it.

[Red Diamond]

Fuel leaking into the cylinders is NOT a likely thing.  In fact, it is very rare. As in all things mechanical, it does sometimes happen.  And when it does, it can create big $ problems.  But, it is rare.

The Valk is mechanical, so it does have issues.  But, overall, it has very few of them.  It is a fine machine.

Reading forums like this, about any subject, it always seems like the item in discussion is prone to failure. But remember, for every one on here with a problem, there are hundreds who do NOT have that problem.

MP

Just to add to that MP, most of the problems are induced, either by neglect or constant over use. By that I mean continuely turning the petcock on and off for not reason. I have never turned the petcock to the off position unless the tank is going to be removed for service of the air intake filter, and I mean never. Never had a hydro-lock either, when I do, I'll deal with it, but I won't create it.

[Patrick]

Yep, you forgot one thing Pluggy.. To do all those items you'll need to hire a NASCAR pit crew to follow you around.. 

[Mildew]

Hydrlock can happen with any fuel valve being used. Fuel leaking anywhere can run down the line to the #6 cylinder. A jealous harley rider can remove a plug and dump a few ounces of water in any cylinder. 

[Red Diamond]

Hydrlock can happen with any fuel valve being used. Fuel leaking anywhere can run down the line to the #6 cylinder. A jealous harley rider can remove a plug and dump a few ounces of water in any cylinder. 

Nah, I don't think so.