Darkside Problem

[RainMaker]

I just installed my second Darkside tire.  I was running a Goodyear Assurance TT 205-60-16 and went with the General Altimax v-rated 205-60-16 this time.  The Goodyear had rubbed enough that the lettering was gone on the right side when I changed it.  Took the Altimax for a quick 10 mile ride and smelled rubber.  Got home and there is rubber dust on the inside of the wheel, plus the tire, pumpkin, wheel and swingarm are all hot to the touch.  Not burning, but hot.  There is a sheen on the right side (pumpkin side) that wasn't there when I left.  Tire pressure before I left was 40 lbs.  The nut cage mod has been done as has the washer mod.  

I put it back up on the centerstand and the tire spins freely.  No grinding sounds.

I just replaced gear fluid, serviced the spines, etc.  No play in the bearings I could find. Felt fine while it was going down the road, no strange noises.

Any ideas?

[PhredValk]

At any size; 50's are wider than 60's that are wider than 65's. Have someone check the clearance with you sitting on the bike?
Fred.

[Brad]

If you have rubber dust it is rubbing.  Pull the wheel and I am sure you will see something polished where it is touching.

[Disco]

I ... went with the General Altimax v-rated 205-50-16 this time.

RM, I only see the v-rated Altimax in 205/60-16.  Is the 50 at typo?  Wizard had told me before the reason he likes the Altimax is the soft sidewall.  When we did Stormrider 65's new Altimax a couple of weeks ago at Hogheads Wrench Party, it was noticeably softer than the tire I'm riding.  What pressure did you run on your test ride?  Perhaps you could bump the pressure up a bit to minimize the squish. 

[X Ring]

Punisher once had a problem that only turned up when he turned left.  The tire would rub on the welded in nut for the bolt you did the washer mod on.  He pulled the wheel, saw where it was rubbing and ground it down to the end of the bolt.  It doesn't rub anymore.

Marty

[old2soon]

My ultimax 205-60-16 is close to the swing arm on that side-close but no rub. H rated and i keep it at 44 P S I. No rub issue at all and i ride the snot out of it. Bet when you pull that tire out of the swing arm you will find the rub. RIDE SAFE.

[gordonv]

At any size; 50's are wider than 60's that are wider than 65's. Have someone check the clearance with you sitting on the bike?
Fred.

Excuse me, I know I'm drunk, just had one beer (1 2 liter bottle, bottle my own), but the designation 50, 60, etc, refers to a % of the tire width to hieght. So a 200mm wide tire with 50(%) = 200x100. So a 60% tire is NOT wider than a 50% or a 65% tire if the width is 200. That refers to tire hieght from width.

Your tire is rubbing on something. People have mentioned that it can rub on the swingarm. A not so easy method might be to remove the rim fromthe bike, and inspect the inside for wear.

[sugerbear]

if you find it's rubbing on the "nut cage mod" grind it down smooth and replace the bolt with a carriage bolt from the inside.

[sugerbear]

At any size; 50's are wider than 60's that are wider than 65's. Have someone check the clearance with you sitting on the bike?
Fred.

Excuse me, I know I'm drunk, just had one beer (1 2 liter bottle, bottle my own), but the designation 50, 60, etc, refers to a % of the tire width to hieght. So a 200mm wide tire with 50(%) = 200x100. So a 60% tire is NOT wider than a 50% or a 65% tire if the width is 200. That refers to tire hieght from width.

Your tire is rubbing on something. People have mentioned that it can rub on the swingarm. A not so easy method might be to remove the rim fromthe bike, and inspect the inside for wear.

went to tirerack.com and pulled out a tire. look at the sect. width of the 205-55-16 and the 205-65-16. there is a difference in the width.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=HydroEdge+with+Green+X

select specs

[X Ring]

And select the correct tires!

Marty

[MP]

I would guess you are rubbing on the bolt left on the nutcage.  I had to take mine out, and I replaced it with a carraige bolt from the inside.  If you can slip a business card between the tire and the swingarm at rest, it will never rub the swingarm.  I run 28# in my Altimax.  Any squish is only on the bottom of the tire, never on the side.

Checking clearance while on a lift does no good.  Look up inside the fender, and I will bet the bolt/nut looks shiny from rubbing.

MP

[Tundra]

Did you do the nutcage mod.? If no do it, here's the link http://lifeisaroad.com/stories/2005/08/24/valkyrieRearFenderNutCageMod.html
If you already did it, I also had to intall a carriage bolt (low profile pan head) backwards. Bolt head on the inside of the fender. That still didn't do it for me. Then I had to shim my fender rail. This was VERY EASY and took only minutes. I was good to go
  Your problem is common with some darksiders and is an easy fix. Look at your tire and rear fender from behind and measure the clearance left and right of the tire. Mine was off center by about 3/4" Some bikes are right on the money, others not so much. I had a nice tutorial from "Easygoer" on the Florida board with pics for the fender rail shim. Link made by Easygoer...http://rides.webshots.com/album/558419637qsIyod?vhost=rides
 Don't sweat it your almost done
  OK I just re-read your post and NOW see you have done all this. Did you loosen your 4 drive shaft bolts before re-installing your wheel and tire? Install with the correct driveshaft/axlenut torqueing sequence?

[RainMaker]

I put on an Altimax 205-60-16, not the 50- Typo (big one in this case).

I've had the bolts reversed after the nut cage mods so that wasn't it.  I think Marty may have an idea - that nut welded inside the fender where I put the washer mod in seems to protrude a lot.

Daniel Meyer said to put duct tape on suspected areas and take a short ride to see if the tape gets torn up. That sounds like a good idea.  He also said that bearings could cause the issue.  So I'm going to drop the wheel after the duct tape run, find the rub and do whatever needs to be done, then replace the bearings just to be sure.

MP - a business cards slides between the swingarm and the tire easily.  So that helps to maybe rule that out.  I'll put duct tale on the inside and see if it rubs just to make sure.

Tundra - On the drive shaft bolts, yes.  Daniel really made that clear as something that must be done when he gave the DFW group a tech session on rear drive maintenance.

I am hoping the rubbing of the tire is what is causing the tire, wheel, pumpkin and swingarm to feel hot.  I will ride my tourer the same route and see if the heat is comparable - I may just be jittery because of the rubbing.

Thanks to all for the ideas.  I had one more idea - has anyone ever put a washer between the pumpkin and the swingarm?  Not sure what a great idea it would be, just wondering.

RM

[lucky_1_chris]

At any size; 50's are wider than 60's that are wider than 65's. Have someone check the clearance with you sitting on the bike?
Fred.

Excuse me, I know I'm drunk, just had one beer (1 2 liter bottle, bottle my own), but the designation 50, 60, etc, refers to a % of the tire width to hieght. So a 200mm wide tire with 50(%) = 200x100. So a 60% tire is NOT wider than a 50% or a 65% tire if the width is 200. That refers to tire hieght from width.

Your tire is rubbing on something. People have mentioned that it can rub on the swingarm. A not so easy method might be to remove the rim fromthe bike, and inspect the inside for wear.

went to tirerack.com and pulled out a tire. look at the sect. width of the 205-55-16 and the 205-65-16. there is a difference in the width.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=HydroEdge+with+Green+X

select specs

I don't know why their site would give different widths, but Gordon is correct. The 2nd number is the height of the sidewall relative to the width of the tire.

[Daniel Meyer]

Daniel Meyer said to put duct tape on suspected areas and take a short ride to see if the tape gets torn up. That sounds like a good idea.  He also said that bearings could cause the issue.  So I'm going to drop the wheel after the duct tape run, find the rub and do whatever needs to be done, then replace the bearings just to be sure.

Bearings would be the issue if the rub is intermittent. As in, NOT hitting the swing arm at rest, but IS when riding...find the rub spot first, then you'll know more on how to proceed. Replacing bearings that are not bad is a waste of time.

I am hoping the rubbing of the tire is what is causing the tire, wheel, pumpkin and swingarm to feel hot.  I will ride my tourer the same route and see if the heat is comparable - I may just be jittery because of the rubbing.

Expect the wheel/tire/swingarm to be ambient + as much as 65 degrees. I would expect them to be hot enough to be uncomfortable to touch in our summer conditions. The pumpkin can get hot enough to burn your hand, even with nice clean synthetic lube in it.

101 yesterday, concrete driveway was 135 degrees via infrared thermometer. Rear tire on arrival home was 160ish. Pumpkin I didn't measure, but I would expect hotter than that. Definitely hot enough to burn.
Don't sweat it so much. Find the rub, then deal with the problem there.

[Valkpilot]

At any size; 50's are wider than 60's that are wider than 65's. Have someone check the clearance with you sitting on the bike?
Fred.

Excuse me, I know I'm drunk, just had one beer (1 2 liter bottle, bottle my own), but the designation 50, 60, etc, refers to a % of the tire width to hieght. So a 200mm wide tire with 50(%) = 200x100. So a 60% tire is NOT wider than a 50% or a 65% tire if the width is 200. That refers to tire hieght from width.

Your tire is rubbing on something. People have mentioned that it can rub on the swingarm. A not so easy method might be to remove the rim fromthe bike, and inspect the inside for wear.

went to tirerack.com and pulled out a tire. look at the sect. width of the 205-55-16 and the 205-65-16. there is a difference in the width.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=HydroEdge+with+Green+X

select specs

I don't know why their site would give different widths, but Gordon is correct. The 2nd number is the height of the sidewall relative to the width of the tire.

The different widths are because "section width" includes either one or both sidewall thicknesses, depending on the site giving the definition.  But a 205 has a tread width of 205 mm regardless of sidewall height (within manufacturing variation.)

Back in olden times when I got my first car, a 50 series tire was wider than a 60 series tire, etc., as was referred to.  Those designations have been replaced by the current width in mm/sidewall height as a % of width/rim diameter in inches labeling.

[X Ring]

Something EVERYONE needs to remember is there is NO standardization in tire measurements.  If there was 205mm section width would be the same on every tire with that designation.  When I was looking at specs last night, a 205/65R16 had a section width of 8.2" while a 205/50R16 had a section width of 8.4"!  If you convert 205mm to english measurements it is 8.07".   You need to look at the manufacturers' or distributors' websites cause it seems tire manufactures are like women's clothing manufacturers.  Each has their own standard and it seems to change between sizes in the same model much less different models.

Marty

[Valkpilot]

Something EVERYONE needs to remember is there is NO standardization is tire measurements.  If there was 205mm section width would be the same on every tire with that designation.  When I was looking at specs last night, a 205/65R16 had a section width of 8.2" while a 205/50R16 had a section width of 8.4"!  If you convert 205mm to english measurements it is 8.07".   You need to look at the manufacturers' or distributors' websites cause it seems tire manufactures are like women's clothing manufacturers.  Each has their own standard and it seems to change between sizes in the same model much less different models.

Marty

Marty, you're right, not every 205 is exactly 205 mm wide but it does not mean that a 205/50 is substantially wider than a 205/60 as used to be the case with tire designations when you would say, "Man, that Roadrunner looks boss with those 60 rears and 70 fronts." 

For one thing, section width is not tread width.  Section width includes one or both sidewall thicknesses, depending on the site you reference for a definition.  I would expect differences in section width as sidewall height changes due to changing structural (stiffness) needs of the sidewall.

To further complicate it, 205 mm is a 'nominal' number subject to manufacturing tolerances.

Unfortunately for us, variations in the Valk frame, fender, and swingarm manufacturing mean that we sometimes find that variations in tire manufacturing produce unexpected results -- the tire rubs. 

[X Ring]

Unfortunately for us, variations in the Valk frame, fender, and swingarm manufacturing mean that we sometimes find that variations in tire manufacturing produce unexpected results -- the tire rubs. 

I have a theory about that.  When I installed a 205/65HR16 Toyo Proxes on my '97 Tourer back in '09, there were some who were stunned that I could fit an 8mm allen wrench between the sidewall and driveshaft tube when they could barely get a credit card or a couple of business cards in theirs.  I believe when the Valk swingarms were being welded together the first year or two the welders were pretty meticulous using the jigs; however, as time went on they didn't pay quite so much attention to the jigs.  The swingarms were in acceptable manufacturing tolerances though.  Couple that with the tire variances and you have a nice set up for clearance issues.

It looks like I may have struck it lucky again.  I installed a Falken 512 205/60HR-16 on my I/S and while I haven't measured it, it looks like I have the same amount of clearance on it.

Marty 

[Paxton]

My Valk is lowered 1-1/2 inches in the rear. It is set up as a "Solo Ride." 

I chose the least expensive CT I could find ($89). It is a NEXEN 205/65/16. Am very happy w/-it...
It has an acceptable lookin' thread too.

CT INSTALLATION:
After the nut cage mod and reassembly, the tire spinned  freely while jacked up. Once on the ground
with the bike's weight, it would rub on the right side bolt. 

We sliced 'bout 1/4" off the bolt. We also sliced the nut in half (ouch!)  . Problem solved. 

When I did the swap, I had gone just 350 miles since purchase... mostly on open highways...
Therefore, I can't speak of the differences in handling characteristics...
I just know that I ain't going back to an M/C tire. 

"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth."

[X Ring]

My Valk is lowered 1-1/2 inches in the rear. It is set up as a "Solo Ride." 

I chose the least expensive CT I could find ($89). It is a NEXEN 205/65/16. Am very happy w/-it...
It has an acceptable lookin' thread too.

CT INSTALLATION:
After the nut cage mod and reassembly, the tire spinned  freely while jacked up. Once on the ground
with the bike's weight, it would rub on the right side bolt. 

We sliced 'bout 1/4" off the bolt. We also sliced the nut in half (ouch!)  . Problem solved. 

When I did the swap, I had gone just 350 miles since purchase... mostly on open highways...
Therefore, I can't speak of the differences in handling characteristics...
I just know that I ain't going back to an M/C tire. 

"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth."

Next time you need to take the wheel out, like say in 10K miles for final drive maintenance, you can do a couple of things.  You can install a carriage bolt inside out with the head on the inside of the fender.  I put a piece of all thread with a nylock nut on the inside of the fender with an acorn nut on the exterior.

Marty

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I'm running the same V rated tire at 38-40psi. I also ran a GY TT previously. No problems with either tire.

[bscrive]

Can you not just go to a 195/60/16 or 195/65/16.  The smaller width would give you the extra clearance I would think.  Can you not get a good quality tire in that size?  I have been considering going to a car tire since I haul a trailer a lot.

[Tropic traveler]

Can you not just go to a 195/60/16 or 195/65/16.  The smaller width would give you the extra clearance I would think.  Can you not get a good quality tire in that size?  I have been considering going to a car tire since I haul a trailer a lot.

Been wishing for a tire like that for a while! What I really want is a 195/70/16 or a 185/70/16 car tire but I haven't found one yet. 

[Paxton]

To find any tire size which you want to see and touch, go to the most popular tire shop near you.
If they don't have it in stock, they'll order it for you.

Ask to see "the same tire" even though it might be a different size.
If not available, reserve the option of declining purchase if you don't like what you get.

As it turned out I am very happy w/what I got for $89. 

[RainMaker]

I'm running the same V rated tire at 38-40psi. I also ran a GY TT previously. No problems with either tire.

Thank you - that's good to know.

Re-teardown in progress.

[BigM]

Sounds like you may also not be tightening the four drive shaft tube bolts last. throwing it off center.

[RainMaker]

Sounds like you may also not be tightening the four drive shaft tube bolts last. throwing it off center.

Actually did but that isn't the rubbing problem.  It's that bolt Marty mentioned.  Gonna' grind it down and do a reverse with an acorn nut on the outside.

Thanks for the idea, though.

[X Ring]

Sounds like you may also not be tightening the four drive shaft tube bolts last. throwing it off center.

Actually did but that isn't the rubbing problem.  It's that bolt Marty mentioned.  Gonna' grind it down and do a reverse with an acorn nut on the outside.

Thanks for the idea, though.

Kinda hard to do that.  That nut is welded to the inside of the frame.  Just grind it down till you get to the end of the bolt.  You should be below the frame then.

Marty

[RainMaker]

Sounds like you may also not be tightening the four drive shaft tube bolts last. throwing it off center.

Actually did but that isn't the rubbing problem.  It's that bolt Marty mentioned.  Gonna' grind it down and do a reverse with an acorn nut on the outside.

Thanks for the idea, though.

Kinda hard to do that.  That nut is welded to the inside of the frame.  Just grind it down till you get to the end of the bolt.  You should be below the frame then.

Marty

Wow - hard to believe.  That things sticks out a good 3/4 of an inch from the frame.  I'll take before and after pictures.  But won't get to it for a week or so.

Thanks again.

Mark

[RainMaker]

All grinding completed.  Dropped the wheel and rechecked the bearings - think the left may be failing due to the fact that if I put pressure with my thumb on the inner race, it doesn't spin smoothly. 

Tripled the washers on the washer mod as well.  Between the extra grinding and the triple washers, no more rubbing.  Bearings on order and will replace them sometime in the next few days.

Thanks for all the help!

RM

[keepinon]

Can you not just go to a 195/60/16 or 195/65/16.  The smaller width would give you the extra clearance I would think.  Can you not get a good quality tire in that size?  I have been considering going to a car tire since I haul a trailer a lot.

I had purchased a Bridgestone Turanza 195/60 for my 'Wing just a few days before I bought the Valk, so it was not installed before I sold that bike. Fast forward nearly a year, seeing that tire sit in the shop, I decided to try it on the Valk. 1000 miles later, I love it. Not as much "push" as my buddies 205/55, but definitly much better braking and wet road handling (well, in the one day of rain we had here). It is a very "sticky" tire, wear rating of 300.  Bought it at a local Firestone store.

I did the nut cage mod, fender was center, but could have done without, it fit easily. Speedometer seems to read much the same (w/ tach) as before. Surely, it'll get more than the 10k miles I usually get from Metzlers.

[X Ring]

Speedometer seems to read much the same (w/ tach) as before.

Valkyrie speedometers operate off the front wheel not the back or tranny so your speedo reading would be unaffected.

Marty

[keepinon]

Valkyrie speedometers operate off the front wheel not the back or tranny so your speedo reading would be unaffected.

Correct, however, a significantly undersized rear tire would require more engine rpm to attain the same speed. I didn't experience greater rpm's and my fuel mileage has remained the same. Two of the more prevalent concerns I've seen here.

[X Ring]

Valkyrie speedometers operate off the front wheel not the back or tranny so your speedo reading would be unaffected.

Correct, however, a significantly undersized rear tire would require more engine rpm to attain the same speed. I didn't experience greater rpm's and my fuel mileage has remained the same. Two of the more prevalent concerns I've seen here.

You wouldn't have seen a significant rpm increase as the tire size you chose has an overall diameter of 25.3".  The 205/55R-16 has a diameter of 25" and the 205/60R-16 has a diameter of 25.7".  The 60 series tires are the closest to the stock M/C tire diameter.  The 55 and 65 series show and increase/decrease of approximately 250-300 rpms respectively. 

Something everyone considering to go DarkSide needs to remember is when you do your research for a tire, you need to look at the spec sheet.  Not just the size but to make sure it fits on the rim width and the diameter of the tire. 

Marty