Darkside Tire Warning!!

[Walküre]

Had an interesting occurrence tonight, when I got to work. I pulled around to the side of the building, where I always park, and as I always do, backed in, perpendicular to the curb, slightly facing the path of travel when I leave in the morning. I bumped the curb, as always, stopped the bike, turned it off, shut off the petcock, raised my modular helmet, and climbed off the bike. As I ride PAST the parking spot, I have to turn left across the street, then back in, past perpendicular, to be facing what I described, so my handlebars usually end up facing a bit right. But, the lean is sufficient to the left, that I've never worried about it.

So anyway, I was taking off my jacket, talking to one of the floor supervisors that was out smoking, when I glanced at the bike, and saw it STAND UP ON IT'S OWN, from the lean, and gently lay down on it's right side! The supervisor (who also rides) could only say "WTF!??!", and I was so stunned, I watched it go.

He and I talked about it, and it took me a bit to figure out what happened, and I had to replicate it, to finally prove to myself what happened. He just kept asking how it could stand itself up.

When I backed in, I evidently bumped the curb a little harder than normal, and had the front brake on. I was flat up against the curb, angled back slightly. When I leaned the bike over, the left side of the car tire actually was forced up and on the curb slightly, on the one side, indented on the sidewall. When I got off the bike, enough weight was off the bike, for the car tire to push the bike off the curb, but since it was in gear, it stood the bike up, instead of away from the curb. And once it stood up enough, it went over. You'd have to see it to believe it, and even then, I was amazed that it happened. I did the same exact steps, to prove to myself what did it, and it did the same exact thing, except fall over, of course. I then did it, but made sure I cranked the handlebars into the lean, and although it didn't stand all the way up, it STILL stood up a bit. So, from now on, I'll pull back off the curb, a little bit.

Strange, but true....

Give up my car tire? Never!!   

R

[fordmano]

WOW!!

Any damage from the tip over?

Just the first step toward the ball of flames that a CAR tire will cause and kill somebody with. 


I think I had better check with snopes on this topic, sounds like a bunch of hooeey to me.

[Walküre]

WOW!!

Any damage from the tip over?

No, none at all. The PO had installed some footpegs up further on the guards, and it slowed it down, although it slipped a little bit. Not enough to hit the valve cover, so not a single mark anywhere. But, it was going pretty slow to begin with - at least, it looked slo-mo to me, watching it go. It just eased down, and sat there, laughing at me! Fortunately, the handlebars were facing downward, so it was an easy walk-up back to upright. Although I DO want to find a handrail that I can put on it somehow - I didn't feel too comfortable walking it up holding onto the fender rack.

In 40+ years of riding, I've never dropped a bike, but I'd have to say this one can be deemed a "drop". Unless it doesn't count, because I was 5 feet or so away. I've wrecked a couple, but they've been legitimate. And I rode one down, when I got into fresh dirt from a landslide in the California twisties, but that couldn't be helped, either. This was the strangest I've ever seen. Just seemed to go against nature!

R

[MacDragon]

I say it's a ghost... has to be a ghost...    Glad there was no damage.  Sure musta stunned you.  If you had already gone inside and came out to it being on the ground... you would have probably thought someone pushed it over on you.  Must have been a weird sight to see it happen.

[Paxton]

Kool & kreepy Stuff!
Have you been cheating on her again... with another fat lady?

Walküre, as they say...
"What happens is fact, not truth.  Truth is what we think about what happens."   
 ???

"What you see is what you see." 

PS:
You might want to recreate and video record the event. I think that many  people would be amused.

[csj]

I went darkside to save 200 bucks, but was pleasantly surprised
that there were so many other positives to the tire, especially
being glued to the road in heavy rain.
Now you're talkin another drawback...  I'm trying to figure where
the stored energy was that could manage to take an 800# bike
from a left lean to a right tip-over.

Only thing seems possible is the sun was on the bike, heated up
the (now-wedged) tire, expanded it enough to provide the levering
effect. I understand about when you got off the bike, that it was
already 'primed', just having trouble seeing where the remaining
lift/push came from.

[designer]

I say it's a ghost... has to be a ghost...    Glad there was no damage.  Sure musta stunned you.  If you had already gone inside and came out to it being on the ground... you would have probably thought someone pushed it over on you.  Must have been a weird sight to see it happen.

Do you have your gremlin bell hanging low enough?

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Wow. I'm not sure anyone would have anticipated that happening but I can see now how it could. Glad your bike is OK and wasn't at the head of a long row of bikes. Thanks for the "heads up", it may have kept the same thing from happening to me or another rider.

[tank_post142]

FIRE AND DEATH ! FIRE AND DEATH!! Woe unto you who would blaspheme the Gods of Wisdom by switching to a CT !! 

[Rowdy]

Spooky 

[RainMaker]

Thanks for the warning - I've never had it happen but will not snug up to the curb from now on.

[bigdog99]

i would say from day 1 i always turn bars toward lean. i also know that the 2x4 i use to set the kickstand so the engine doesnt lean as much for parking in my garage, is almost a 1/2" too high.
it does change the way it sits. but like you, give up my car tire, never!

[CajunRider]

I say it's a ghost... has to be a ghost...    

Yeah... ghost of a former Harley Rider.    

[Willow]

Maybe splitting hairs, but a better tag for the thread would possibly be Front Tire Turned Away from Lean Warning.

Even without the flat bottomed tire a good wind would've (notice I didn't say "would of") had a better chance of success with the bars turned that way.

As to the laying down without scratching the valve cover, welcome to the world of Valkyries.  Now that you've allowed one to lie down (as opposed to laid it down), you've joined a large fraternity.    

[Jabba]

Now that you've allowed one to lie down (as opposed to laid it down), you've joined a large fraternity.    

No kidding... I have allowed mine to lay down 2 times.  Both at 0 MPH.

I have a little ding in the crash bar...  not like I am going to SELL her or anything.

Jabba

[ptgb]

...Now that you've allowed one to lie down (as opposed to laid it down), you've joined a large fraternity.

Yeah, got that t-shirt. Twice! But the worst part was both were probably the most embarrassing times/places i could have been.

First lay down... I wasn't even on the Valk... was working on it in the garage and it folded over on top me out of the wheel chock (I was messing with the front end improperly - my fault). Had to call my wife to help me get out from under it.

Second lay down... in the parking lot of Freedom Harley Davidson in Canton Ohio. Was there with my buddy picking up his new Road Glide. He had to help me pick her up. My face was burning for about 5 minutes after that one. Oh well... it ended up no one saw it anyway.

[Walküre]

Maybe splitting hairs, but a better tag for the thread would possibly be Front Tire Turned Away from Lean Warning.

Even without the flat bottomed tire a good wind would've (notice I didn't say "would of") had a better chance of success with the bars turned that way.

True, and I know better. It's just that my Valk leans over WAY more than any bike I've ever owned, even with the wheel kicked to the right. Of course, it's not so much the lean, but the weight being out there, opposite the CG, or "center of gravity" (you airplane guys know all about that!!), that gives it the leverage to tip opposite of where it is leaning.

I say it's a ghost... has to be a ghost...    Glad there was no damage.  Sure musta stunned you.  If you had already gone inside and came out to it being on the ground... you would have probably thought someone pushed it over on you.  Must have been a weird sight to see it happen.

EXACTLY what one of the guys at work said - and very true! I NEVER would have guessed it happened like it did. And, it WAS weird - as I said, I stood and watched it. I'm sure, if not as surprised as I was, I would have jumped to her rescue, but I was completely dumfounded.

Do you have your gremlin bell hanging low enough?

Yeah, hooked to the bottom of the exhaust, on the right side. Hmmm, maybe that added enough weight....

I'm trying to figure where
the stored energy was that could manage to take an 800# bike
from a left lean to a right tip-over.

Only thing seems possible is the sun was on the bike, heated up
the (now-wedged) tire, expanded it enough to provide the levering
effect. I understand about when you got off the bike, that it was
already 'primed', just having trouble seeing where the remaining
lift/push came from.

Read above - it wasn't so much "stored energy", anyway, not enough to "overcome" the lean that would have been there, had the wheel been pointed to the left - the weight past the CG on the right, is what "primed" it. The tire was at about an 80° angle to the curb, so one side was pushed into the curb, with the tire indented about an inch. THAT was enough, to overcome whatever safety I had in the slight lean, and allow it to go over. I really don't think it would have been enough with a motorcycle tire, because it wouldn't indent quite like the car tire, but STILL would have left itself open to tipping. I think the car tire was enough, to put it "over the top" (pun intended), at least right after I got off. I very well might have gone over anyway, I just don't think it would have gone as gracefully as it did. You would have to be there, to appreciate it - my supervisor is STILL shaking his head and commenting on it. A lot of different things contributed to it - hitting the curb more than normal, hitting the front brake at exactly the right time, to keep it hard on the curb, having it in first, clutch released, when I released the brake, and me being a fat boy, keeping it pushed back. Getting off, on the left side, perhaps also "rocked" it just enough to give it momentum. Not enough to push it over right then, because it was a good 5 seconds before it went over - enough for me to say a few words, and get my helmet off.

Wow. I'm not sure anyone would have anticipated that happening but I can see now how it could. Glad your bike is OK and wasn't at the head of a long row of bikes. Thanks for the "heads up", it may have kept the same thing from happening to me or another rider.

Yeah, another freaky co-ink-a-dink - the guy who gets off as I come on at work, always parks so that he blocks the handicap ramp - so I park where I force him to back up to leave, if at all possible, unless he DOES park correctly. That night, he just happened to, so I was parked about 4 feet in front of him, past the ramp. On almost ANY other day, it would have landed on his car!! THAT would have raised a ruckus, with him accusing me of unsafe practice, since it hit HIS car! Dodged a bullet, on that one!!

Oh well, ya live and learn. I'd MUCH rather drop it in the parking lot, than on the highway!!

R

[R J]

If the dingle of the dangle is the same with a bike tire, the same thing can happen.

I had it happen with me several years ago with a Police bike.

Now, that is embarrassing, especially when you are at a donut shop. 

We were taught to get off, well advised, on the right side.  Backed into the curb, hit it pretty hard and had the front brake on.   Handle bar, wheel, turned right.  We were also advised to park in neutral, that in my book now is a no-no.   Got about 3 steps from the bike and over it went.

[Walküre]

If the dingle of the dangle is the same with a bike tire, the same thing can happen.

I had it happen with me several years ago with a Police bike.

Now, that is embarrassing, especially when you are at a donut shop.  

We were taught to get off, well advised, on the right side.  Backed into the curb, hit it pretty hard and had the front brake on.   Handle bar, wheel, turned right.  We were also advised to park in neutral, that in my book now is a no-no.   Got about 3 steps from the bike and over it went.

wow, surrounded by 400 cops!!! That WOULD be embarrassing!  (snicker!!).

Curious, though - were you on TOP of the curb? Or even partially up it? If in neutral, and on top of the curb, rolling off it would be enough to cause the drop, I would think. I've had a LOT of motorcycles over the years, all but this one with motorcycle tires, and have never seen one compressed, like the car tire was, when I repeated it. I've seen them "pinched" in chocks, but not pushed in, merely on it's own from the bike's weight. And, I had to repeat what I thought I'd done 4 or 5 times, before I got it to do the same thing, and that's how I deduced what happened. I'm a curious type, and was pretty well determined to find out how it happened, after not believing it HAD happened!

I didn't mean to imply that the handlebars were hard-right - if it came off like that, sorry - basically, they were slightly right of straight ahead, just enough to kick me about 80° from the curb, so maybe 10° to the right. Don't have me slide rule with me. I didn't "force" them to the right, just left them where they ended up, after backing up 20 feet from across the street.

Two questions, if you would - why getting off opposite the lean, unless to keep you from getting off into traffic, and why did they recommend neutral? If getting off that way, is to avoid the possibility of facing, or even falling, directly into any traffic, that's why I park perpendicular - I don't worry about getting INTO traffic, as I can see it the whole time, and I'm not directed towards it, but it IS a heck of a lot easier for these old legs, to get off the bike from the left. Or, maybe it's in case it DOES go over, towards the lean, it won't fall on top of you?

 And neutral? I've been taught since day one, you NEVER EVER park ANY vehicle, and leave it in neutral. Unless there weren't neutral safety switches way back when, and they were worried about starting in gear (which was the case with most of my "early" cars and trucks). Just had to be careful, but then, Cops would be on the "public's dime", and a whole different set of rules, I would think. Anyway, curious...

I think it's pretty much unanimous, that the car tire wasn't the reason for the drop. But I can't help but feel it played some small role in it. Not going to change back to MT, to see, though.  

R

[3fan4life]

If the dingle of the dangle is the same with a bike tire, the same thing can happen.

I had it happen with me several years ago with a Police bike.

Now, that is embarrassing, especially when you are at a donut shop.  

We were taught to get off, well advised, on the right side.  Backed into the curb, hit it pretty hard and had the front brake on.   Handle bar, wheel, turned right.  We were also advised to park in neutral, that in my book now is a no-no.   Got about 3 steps from the bike and over it went.

What, A COP at a DOUGHNUT shop.............. That NEVER happens.     

[R J]

If the dingle of the dangle is the same with a bike tire, the same thing can happen.

I had it happen with me several years ago with a Police bike.

Now, that is embarrassing, especially when you are at a donut shop.  

We were taught to get off, well advised, on the right side.  Backed into the curb, hit it pretty hard and had the front brake on.   Handle bar, wheel, turned right.  We were also advised to park in neutral, that in my book now is a no-no.   Got about 3 steps from the bike and over it went.

wow, surrounded by 400 cops!!! That WOULD be embarrassing!  (snicker!!).

Curious, though - were you on TOP of the curb? Or even partially up it? If in neutral, and on top of the curb, rolling off it would be enough to cause the drop, I would think. I've had a LOT of motorcycles over the years, all but this one with motorcycle tires, and have never seen one compressed, like the car tire was, when I repeated it. I've seen them "pinched" in chocks, but not pushed in, merely on it's own from the bike's weight. And, I had to repeat what I thought I'd done 4 or 5 times, before I got it to do the same thing, and that's how I deduced what happened. I'm a curious type, and was pretty well determined to find out how it happened, after not believing it HAD happened!

Two questions, if you would - why getting off opposite the lean, unless to keep you from getting off into traffic, and why did they recommend neutral? If getting off that way, is to avoid the possibility of facing, or even falling, directly into any traffic, that's why I park perpendicular - I don't worry about getting INTO traffic, as I can see it the whole time, and I'm not directed towards it, but it IS a heck of a lot easier for these old legs, to get off the bike from the left. Or, maybe it's in case it DOES go over, towards the lean, it won't fall on top of you?

 And neutral? I've been taught since day one, you NEVER EVER park ANY vehicle, and leave it in neutral. Unless there weren't neutral safety switches way back when, and they were worried about starting in gear (which was the case with most of my "early" cars and trucks). Just had to be careful, but then, Cops would be on the "public's dime", and a whole different set of rules, I would think.

You asked why we debarked on the right.    One reason was to stay out of traffic, especially when it is running around 70 - 80 MPH.  We always stopped behind the vehicle we stopped and so we could see all the occupants.    The other reason was for our protection from the motorist we had stopped if they just happened to have a weapon.     I know, it was very little protection, but any protection will help some.

Leave it in neutral, was a limitation the Chief laid down.    Our bikes, in fact all of them in that era would start in gear.    Even the old kick starter ones.  If you pulled the kick starter up and slammed it through, look out if the bitch happened to fire.    She would be gone or down.      Our Moto Guzzi's would usually start on the 1st spark issued to a piston, if in gear, yup, you were on the ground, and that is exactly what happened to our Chief on graduation day at the Academy, so, park em in neutral was the rule.    I never liked it but i also didn't want to get rapped for dumping one that I'd left in gear.   

Was not on top of curb.    They had high curbs in California, trust me on that one.    Couple of my partners tried to go over a curb in a chase and ended up on their butt, the Black and White's had to catch the suspect.     They did a header on the curb.  Bike flipped over like we used to do our bicycles to work on them.  Chief also banned that tactic.

We had a lot of rules, that I'd bust someone's butt for doing, if I was training a new rider.

[Walküre]

You asked why we debarked on the right.    One reason was to stay out of traffic, especially when it is running around 70 - 80 MPH.  We always stopped behind the vehicle we stopped and so we could see all the occupants.    The other reason was for our protection from the motorist we had stopped if they just happened to have a weapon.     I know, it was very little protection, but any protection will help some.

Leave it in neutral, was a limitation the Chief laid down.    Our bikes, in fact all of them in that era would start in gear.    Even the old kick starter ones.  If you pulled the kick starter up and slammed it through, look out if the bitch happened to fire.    She would be gone or down.      Our Moto Guzzi's would usually start on the 1st spark issued to a piston, if in gear, yup, you were on the ground, and that is exactly what happened to our Chief on graduation day at the Academy, so, park em in neutral was the rule.    I never liked it but i also didn't want to get rapped for dumping one that I'd left in gear.  

Was not on top of curb.    They had high curbs in California, trust me on that one.    Couple of my partners tried to go over a curb in a chase and ended up on their butt, the Black and White's had to catch the suspect.     They did a header on the curb.  Bike flipped over like we used to do our bicycles to work on them.  Chief also banned that tactic.

We had a lot of rules, that I'd bust someone's butt for doing, if I was training a new rider.

RJ - thanks! All makes sense - I didn't even think about pulling someone over, just regular parking. Doh!! But once reminded you were talking LEO, it's a given. And having grown up for the most part in So. Cal., I understand completely!

Yeah, forgot about the high curbs, too! The curb I parked at, was maybe 3-4" tall, so low on the tire. I would guess the high curbs there, had the same affect, having the leverage to stand the scooter up.

As for neutral, I went a lot of years, before having a bike, that HAD an electric start, and neutral safety switch. Kicked over a lot of them, and had all but forgotten about the need to be in neutral, or clutch drawn in. Do remember jerking forward, a few times, though!!

I used to babysit for a motor cop in Jr. High, back in the mid-60's, in San Diego. I recall when the SDPD first stopped using Harleys, and went to the Kawasaki, he refused, left the force, and moved to Montana. I read that sometime around 2006, Kawasaki quit offering police bikes, so the SDPD switched to BMW's.

Never owned a Guzzi - in fact, I don't remember the CHP using them. But they're one of the bikes I've always admired, mostly because they were supposed to have such a smooth ride and motor, that and an Ariel Square Four. When were you riding them in California?

[R J]

 When were you riding them in California?

Started the Academy in January 1954, got to transfer to Motors when I got assigned to Orange County Area, 4 years and 7 months later.    Got transfered from Blythe, CA Area, my 1st assignment out of the Academy.     What a God forsaken hole that was.    Cruisers did not have A/C, power steering or brakes and NO shade to park under in the Blythe Area.   When I went to Orange County Area, I got my 1st A/C equipped cruiser.   Man, I was in heaven.

Went from Orange County to Sacremento to San Francisco, to lake Tahoe Area's.   Retired at lake Tahoe, South Shore Area.   Donner Pass was our main objective.

We got the Guzzi's while at the State Capital, mainly used for escorting.   Dull life......  I think they lasted 2 or 3 years and then we got the Kaw's.   Yes, I see where they are riding BMW's now.    They were testing the BMW back in early 70's.