ATF director out! over selling guns to criminals :)

[tank_post142]

http://news.yahoo.com/atf-chief-reassigned-botched-sting-161949768.html

i think both of them need to be charged as accessories to murder of a federal officer.

[Jess from VA]

Holder needs to go too.

[MP]

Holder is shown in a news conference about a year before the news broke bragging about the program.  Now, he says he knew nothing.  He sounds like "Sargeant Schultz" on Stalig 13!

He needs to go!

MP

[BigAl]

Holder accused of being a hypocrite, how surprising.

If he was a repub. he would have been castrated in the media.

But not the Dem Loving, liberal media.

He is now a hero in their eyes.

Not a villain.

[Fudd]

This will go down in history as one of the stupidest blunders ever.  Does anyone know the body count of the confirmed deaths due to these guns?

Stirring up the pot of violence down there will just mean the need for more of our failed CIA/DEA programs.  Job security through idiotic actions.

[The Anvil]

http://news.yahoo.com/atf-chief-reassigned-botched-sting-161949768.html

i think both of them need to be charged as accessories to murder of a federal officer.

I agree. But while you're at it, charge everyone involved in giving arms to the Mujaheddin with accessory the murder of US servicemen in Afghanistan. Reagan is dead but Oliver North is still alive and should hang.

 

[designer]

http://news.yahoo.com/atf-chief-reassigned-botched-sting-161949768.html

i think both of them need to be charged as accessories to murder of a federal officer.

I agree. But while you're at it, charge everyone involved in giving arms to the Mujaheddin with accessory the murder of US servicemen in Afghanistan. Reagan is dead but Oliver North is still alive and should hang.

 

How did you manager to link the drug wars, through afghan to make lame political statement in your effort to troll this thread. Really?!

[The Anvil]

http://news.yahoo.com/atf-chief-reassigned-botched-sting-161949768.html

i think both of them need to be charged as accessories to murder of a federal officer.

I agree. But while you're at it, charge everyone involved in giving arms to the Mujaheddin with accessory the murder of US servicemen in Afghanistan. Reagan is dead but Oliver North is still alive and should hang.

 

How did you manager to link the drug wars, through afghan to make lame political statement in your effort to troll this thread. Really?!

I'm pointing out that what's wrong is wrong. I actually agree that the person responsible for this needs to do jail time. It's not a political statement, it's a statement of fact and that fact is that we learn nothing from our past mistakes.

But there is no statute of limitations on murder and our own weapons are still being used against us by the enemy. Why has this been forgotten?

[Moonshot_1]

http://news.yahoo.com/atf-chief-reassigned-botched-sting-161949768.html

i think both of them need to be charged as accessories to murder of a federal officer.

I agree. But while you're at it, charge everyone involved in giving arms to the Mujaheddin with accessory the murder of US servicemen in Afghanistan. Reagan is dead but Oliver North is still alive and should hang.

 

How did you manager to link the drug wars, through afghan to make lame political statement in your effort to troll this thread. Really?!

I'm pointing out that what's wrong is wrong. I actually agree that the person responsible for this needs to do jail time. It's not a political statement, it's a statement of fact and that fact is that we learn nothing from our past mistakes.

But there is no statute of limitations on murder and our own weapons are still being used against us by the enemy. Why has this been forgotten?

So we are going to equate an Administration providing weapons and ammo to a group who at the time were in the thralls of repelling a Soviet invasion of their country in the midst of the Cold War to an Administration knowingly providing weapons and ammo to known thugs of the Drug Cartels who sell drugs to US citizens, and murder people to advance their drug selling agenda?

Brilliant.

I can’t wait till the Dept. of Justice gives everyone at Guantanamo an Airplane and a case of Serin. You know, just to see how they operate and how they will use it.

[Serk]

I can’t wait till the Dept. of Justice gives everyone at Guantanamo an Airplane and a case of Serin. You know, just to see how they operate and how they will use it.

Dude, don't give them any ideas!!!

The other big thing for me, call me a conspiracy theorist if you like, was that the true goal of Fast and Furious wasn't catching the drug cartel people (All tracking of the guns ended at the border, and the Mexican authorities were never brought in on it...) IMHO the true purpose was to give some credence to the anti 2nd amendment folks claims that most of the guns used by the drug cartels (Drug cartels which have access to REAL automatic weapons, grenades, RPG's, etc) are coming from US gun stores, and thus we need to ban those evil looking guns again...

[Chattanooga Mark]

Bullseye Serk. Absolutely, 100% correct IMHO.

Mark

[MP]

http://news.yahoo.com/atf-chief-reassigned-botched-sting-161949768.html

i think both of them need to be charged as accessories to murder of a federal officer.

I agree. But while you're at it, charge everyone involved in giving arms to the Mujaheddin with accessory the murder of US servicemen in Afghanistan. Reagan is dead but Oliver North is still alive and should hang.

 

How did you manager to link the drug wars, through afghan to make lame political statement in your effort to troll this thread. Really?!

I'm pointing out that what's wrong is wrong. I actually agree that the person responsible for this needs to do jail time. It's not a political statement, it's a statement of fact and that fact is that we learn nothing from our past mistakes.

But there is no statute of limitations on murder and our own weapons are still being used against us by the enemy. Why has this been forgotten?

By your standards then, Anvil, FDR should hang.  He gave LOTS of guns, bombs, airplanes, etc. to Stalin, before and during WWII, who later used them to murder millions of his own people, and then bring on the cold war against us.  FDR should hang, says Anvil!

MP

[tank_post142]

we fought against m-1 garands and colt .45s  in vietnam. these came out of russia in the 60s

[The Anvil]

http://news.yahoo.com/atf-chief-reassigned-botched-sting-161949768.html

i think both of them need to be charged as accessories to murder of a federal officer.

I agree. But while you're at it, charge everyone involved in giving arms to the Mujaheddin with accessory the murder of US servicemen in Afghanistan. Reagan is dead but Oliver North is still alive and should hang.

 

How did you manager to link the drug wars, through afghan to make lame political statement in your effort to troll this thread. Really?!

I'm pointing out that what's wrong is wrong. I actually agree that the person responsible for this needs to do jail time. It's not a political statement, it's a statement of fact and that fact is that we learn nothing from our past mistakes.

But there is no statute of limitations on murder and our own weapons are still being used against us by the enemy. Why has this been forgotten?

By your standards then, Anvil, FDR should hang.  He gave LOTS of guns, bombs, airplanes, etc. to Stalin, before and during WWII, who later used them to murder millions of his own people, and then bring on the cold war against us.  FDR should hang, says Anvil!

MP

You know FDR is dead, right?

Yeah cuz they were totally the same situation. 

[MP]

FDR sold guns to Stalin, who later used them against his own people and us.

We sold guns to the Afghan rebels, who at the time were fighting the Russians.  Later, they were used against their own people and us.

Yeah, TOTALLY different!   sarcasm font

One was a progressive, which makes it OK.  And, one was not, which makes it immoral, at least in your eyes.

I think BOTH were OK.  At the time they were done, they were right.  You cannot go back over several decades, and say it was wrong, because things changed.

Obama has overthrown the govt in Libya.  Without our military might, it would NOT have happened.  Should we hang Obama if in 10 years any of our guns are used against us by the "new" govt in Libya? Or any of Libyas stockpile of arms are used against us by terrorists?   You do know Obama is still alive, don't you?

MP

MP

[The Anvil]

FDR sold guns to Stalin, who later used them against his own people and us.

We sold guns to the Afghan rebels, who at the time were fighting the Russians.  Later, they were used against their own people and us.

Yeah, TOTALLY different!   sarcasm font

One was a progressive, which makes it OK.  And, one was not, which makes it immoral, at least in your eyes.

I think BOTH were OK.  At the time they were done, they were right.  You cannot go back over several decades, and say it was wrong, because things changed.

Obama has overthrown the govt in Libya.  Without our military might, it would NOT have happened.  Should we hang Obama if in 10 years any of our guns are used against us by the "new" govt in Libya? Or any of Libyas stockpile of arms are used against us by terrorists?   You do know Obama is still alive, don't you?

MP

MP

The situations were completely different. The entirety of Europe and Asia were at war back then. That's why it was called a "world war". Our involvement did not make it that.

This was just the USSR invading little Afghanistan and we really didn't care about the Afghans, we just wanted to be a thorn in the side of the USSR just as they did to us in Vietnam. Furthermore, as we've seen, fundamentalist Islamic theocracies are not our friends and aiding them will only serve to bite us in the ass. Not that we would have know that... (ahem IRAN). Not to mention the fact that we gave Stalin our outmoded junk. We gave the Mujaheddin state of the are anti-aircraft missiles dozens of which are still missing. Just wait until one of them is used to shoot down an American airliner. Hoo boy won't that be a shitstorm! And I won't even bring up the other part of that affair which was arming South American butcher clans and interfering clandestinely (not even the honorable way) with the course of history there.

If you can't see the difference then good luck to you. But that's all missing the point anyway. I remember right wingers hailing the traitor Oliver North as a "hero" and a great American for doing what he did. Different ideology, different doctrine, different  administration, same old story. Good Americans are dead as a result of actions carried out by people who should have known better, but different standards for different people means different status. Some are heroes, others are traitors. Many more Americans have died as a result of Reagan's brilliance so where's the cry to bring those people to justice?

[tank_post142]

American Lend-lease deliveries to Russia included also more than 400.000 trucks, over 12.000 tanks and other combat vehicles, 32.000 motorcycles, 13.000 locomotives and railway cars, 8.000 anti-aircraft cannons and machine-guns, 135.000 submachine guns, 300.000 tons of explosives, 40.000 field radios, some 400 radar systems, 400.000 metal cutting machi­ne tools, several million tons of foodstuff, steel, other metals, oil and gasoline, chemicals etc.
additionally we sent p-39s,p-40.p-47s and b-25 bombers. outdated stuff? 54 b-25s went to russia when the air corps only had 17 in their inventory!
 i think it was the right thing to do at the time  and the same thing in afganistan.

[Moonshot_1]

This is pretty simple. A little Sesame Street here...

FDR gave Stalin weapons. At the time Stalin wasn't the bad guy but he and his country were fighting against our enemy. Nazi Germany

Regan gave the Mujaheddin weapons. At the time, the Mujaheddin wasn't the bad guy and they were fighting our enemy. A nuclear superpower, the USSR.

Obama administration gave Mexican Drug Lords weapons. At the time, which is now, The Mexican Drug Lords are the bad guys. The Mexican Drug Lords are our enemy.

One of these things is not like the other

[The Anvil]

This is pretty simple. A little Sesame Street here...

FDR gave Stalin weapons. At the time Stalin wasn't the bad guy but he and his country were fighting against our enemy. Nazi Germany

Regan gave the Mujaheddin weapons. At the time, the Mujaheddin wasn't the bad guy and they were fighting our enemy. A nuclear superpower, the USSR.

Obama administration gave Mexican Drug Lords weapons. At the time, which is now, The Mexican Drug Lords are the bad guys. The Mexican Drug Lords are our enemy.

One of these things is not like the other

The Mujaheddin (late known as the Taliban) have always been our enemy, if not an imminent threat then still philosophically diametrically opposed to us, even more so than the communists. So no, these things are all alike.

[Moonshot_1]

This is pretty simple. A little Sesame Street here...

FDR gave Stalin weapons. At the time Stalin wasn't the bad guy but he and his country were fighting against our enemy. Nazi Germany

Regan gave the Mujaheddin weapons. At the time, the Mujaheddin wasn't the bad guy and they were fighting our enemy. A nuclear superpower, the USSR.

Obama administration gave Mexican Drug Lords weapons. At the time, which is now, The Mexican Drug Lords are the bad guys. The Mexican Drug Lords are our enemy.

One of these things is not like the other

The Mujaheddin (late known as the Taliban) have always been our enemy, if not an imminent threat then still philosophically diametrically opposed to us, even more so than the communists. So no, these things are all alike.

You are entitled to that opinion. But the fact is that at the time they were fighting against our Cold War enemy.

What enemy of ours are the Mexican Durg Cartels fighting against?

[tank_post142]

we had not been in combat against the afgans when we sold them weapons,we had been in combat ( IN RUSSIA) against the communists previously.

[Psychotic Bovine]

Operation Fast and Furious had one goal in mind:  to make an excuse for further restrictive gun laws in the US by manufacturing a crisis in a foreign country that could be blamed on the US.  When Hillary and her ilk were screaming about all of the guns that were finding their way across the border due to lax US gun laws, the NRA said "no, that's not true."  The NRA and more than a few people suspected the US was MAKING it happen.  It is clearly an entirely different situation than either FDR/Stalin or Reagan/Taliban.  FDR and Reagan, for whatever their individual reasons for doing what they did, were NOT trying to undermine the Constitution of the United States by making a crisis that would lead to a call for more gun control.  Operation Fast and Furious was designed for exactly that.  Why else would the lower echelon be screaming that they can't track the arms, while the upper echelon were telling them to do it anyway?
I can't say for sure if Obama knew about it.  If he did, he's very guilty of the death of quite a few people, if he didn't he's guilty of having his head somewhere else than in his job.  This is not about "oh, other presidents did similar things, so it's ok", it's about a group of politicians making a crisis to manipulate the citizens of the US into accepting more restrictions on their Rights.

[The Anvil]

What enemy of ours are the Mexican Durg Cartels fighting against?

The Mexican government.

[tank_post142]

enemy?

[Fudd]

This is pretty simple. A little Sesame Street here...

FDR gave Stalin weapons. At the time Stalin wasn't the bad guy but he and his country were fighting against our enemy. Nazi Germany

Regan gave the Mujaheddin weapons. At the time, the Mujaheddin wasn't the bad guy and they were fighting our enemy. A nuclear superpower, the USSR.

Obama administration gave Mexican Drug Lords weapons. At the time, which is now, The Mexican Drug Lords are the bad guys. The Mexican Drug Lords are our enemy.


One of these things is not like the other

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  It might make you short sided or just plain dumb to trust some of these charactors, but that's how it has always and will always be done.  We support the side that we see as the lesser of two evils.

I still can't see the any possible good from supplying drug lords guns.  Maybe Obama thought they would all snuff each other out.

[The Anvil]

Operation Fast and Furious had one goal in mind:  to make an excuse for further restrictive gun laws in the US by manufacturing a crisis in a foreign country that could be blamed on the US.  When Hillary and her ilk were screaming about all of the guns that were finding their way across the border due to lax US gun laws, the NRA said "no, that's not true."  The NRA and more than a few people suspected the US was MAKING it happen.  It is clearly an entirely different situation than either FDR/Stalin or Reagan/Taliban.  FDR and Reagan, for whatever their individual reasons for doing what they did, were NOT trying to undermine the Constitution of the United States by making a crisis that would lead to a call for more gun control.  Operation Fast and Furious was designed for exactly that.  Why else would the lower echelon be screaming that they can't track the arms, while the upper echelon were telling them to do it anyway?
I can't say for sure if Obama knew about it.  If he did, he's very guilty of the death of quite a few people, if he didn't he's guilty of having his head somewhere else than in his job.  This is not about "oh, other presidents did similar things, so it's ok", it's about a group of politicians making a crisis to manipulate the citizens of the US into accepting more restrictions on their Rights.

That's the tinfoil hat version.

And for the bold part, I never said that. In fact I said that if it's bad for one to do it (and it is) then it's bad for all of them to do it.

[designer]

This is pretty simple. A little Sesame Street here...

FDR gave Stalin weapons. At the time Stalin wasn't the bad guy but he and his country were fighting against our enemy. Nazi Germany

Regan gave the Mujaheddin weapons. At the time, the Mujaheddin wasn't the bad guy and they were fighting our enemy. A nuclear superpower, the USSR.

Obama administration gave Mexican Drug Lords weapons. At the time, which is now, The Mexican Drug Lords are the bad guys. The Mexican Drug Lords are our enemy.

One of these things is not like the other

The Mujaheddin (late known as the Taliban) have always been our enemy, if not an imminent threat then still philosophically diametrically opposed to us, even more so than the communists. So no, these things are all alike.

You are Wrong, the Freedom fighters (Mujaheddin) we're not the Taliban.. it originated in post civil war Afghanstan.  do your research...

As far as all the above operations... when you elect your public officials they have some rights to act without your knowledge in the name of national security.  Most americans don't want to know, they just want to be able to go to sleep at night knowing there government will keep the wolves away.  Its not until someone (politicans) think they can gain from its exposure that some of these operations come to light.

Before you become too critical of this administration or that administration I would say you need to pick up a gun and join the fight.  The Armed forces will even take a lefty like you....

ATF... well, that's another story.  Sorry to say my dealing with them have been short and a losing battle... They swing with the power of the government and the agenda of whoever is in charge at the time.  +1 Bovine

[tank_post142]

That's the tinfoil hat version. Anvil: thats funny!! i'm mean it! not sarcasm. thats just funny!  

[The Anvil]

enemy?

I was being somewhat flip, but do you think the Mexican government acts with our best interests at heart? Because they don't. In fact, the Mexican government uses the US as a safety valve. They have no incentive to change things from within and they treat attempts to reform immigration in this country with hostile words and threats against commerce because they know that meaningful immigration reform here means that they'll have to clean up their own trash from within. The Mexican government IS our enemy. Don't ever believe otherwise.

[The Anvil]

This is pretty simple. A little Sesame Street here...

FDR gave Stalin weapons. At the time Stalin wasn't the bad guy but he and his country were fighting against our enemy. Nazi Germany

Regan gave the Mujaheddin weapons. At the time, the Mujaheddin wasn't the bad guy and they were fighting our enemy. A nuclear superpower, the USSR.

Obama administration gave Mexican Drug Lords weapons. At the time, which is now, The Mexican Drug Lords are the bad guys. The Mexican Drug Lords are our enemy.

One of these things is not like the other

The Mujaheddin (late known as the Taliban) have always been our enemy, if not an imminent threat then still philosophically diametrically opposed to us, even more so than the communists. So no, these things are all alike.

You are Wrong, the Freedom fighters (Mujaheddin) we're not the Taliban.. it originated in post civil war Afghanstan.  do your research...

WERE NOT. Note that I said they "later became" the Taliban and that's accurate.

As far as all the above operations... when you elect your public officials they have some rights to act without your knowledge in the name of national security.  Most americans don't want to know, they just want to be able to go to sleep at night knowing there government will keep the wolves away.  Its not until someone (politicans) think they can gain from its exposure that some of these operations come to light.

True, but bad moves are still bad moves.

Before you become too critical of this administration or that administration I would say you need to pick up a gun and join the fight.  The Armed forces will even take a lefty like you....

Dude, don't play that card. Just because someone hasn't served in the military doesn't mean that they can't be critical of government.

[Psychotic Bovine]

Tinfoil hat version. 
That's pretty good, because we know no government in the world has ever perpetrated anything for political gain or to sway public opinion.  That just NEVER happens.

[MP]

Tinfoil hat version. 
That's pretty good, because we know no government in the world has ever perpetrated anything for political gain or to sway public opinion.  That just NEVER happens.

Yeah!  Like now Obama is having his "jobs" announcement on the EXACT same time as the Repubs have their debate.  Spokesman said it is the ONLY TIME it could be scheduled.  EVERYTHING ELSE was full!

What a crock!  Liar.

MP

[Trynt]

enemy?

I was being somewhat flip, but do you think the Mexican government acts with our best interests at heart? Because they don't. In fact, the Mexican government uses the US as a safety valve. They have no incentive to change things from within and they treat attempts to reform immigration in this country with hostile words and threats against commerce because they know that meaningful immigration reform here means that they'll have to clean up their own trash from within. The Mexican government IS our enemy. Don't ever believe otherwise.

I'm not a fan of the Mexican government, and certainly its own agenda often runs contrary to our nation's best interests. But to suggest it is somehow comparable to Nazi Germany is a laughable attempt on your part to evade the obvious fallacy of argument.

[The Anvil]

enemy?

I was being somewhat flip, but do you think the Mexican government acts with our best interests at heart? Because they don't. In fact, the Mexican government uses the US as a safety valve. They have no incentive to change things from within and they treat attempts to reform immigration in this country with hostile words and threats against commerce because they know that meaningful immigration reform here means that they'll have to clean up their own trash from within. The Mexican government IS our enemy. Don't ever believe otherwise.

I'm not a fan of the Mexican government, and certainly its own agenda which often runs contrary to our nation's best interests. But to suggest it is somehow comparable to Stalin's regime or Nazi Germany is a laughable attempt on your part to evade the obvious fallacy of argument.

Did I say they're comparable? Where did I say that?

[The Anvil]

Tinfoil hat version. 
That's pretty good, because we know no government in the world has ever perpetrated anything for political gain or to sway public opinion.  That just NEVER happens.

Right, like 9/11.

[Trynt]

enemy?

I was being somewhat flip, but do you think the Mexican government acts with our best interests at heart? Because they don't. In fact, the Mexican government uses the US as a safety valve. They have no incentive to change things from within and they treat attempts to reform immigration in this country with hostile words and threats against commerce because they know that meaningful immigration reform here means that they'll have to clean up their own trash from within. The Mexican government IS our enemy. Don't ever believe otherwise.

I'm not a fan of the Mexican government, and certainly its own agenda which often runs contrary to our nation's best interests. But to suggest it is somehow comparable to Stalin's regime or Nazi Germany is a laughable attempt on your part to evade the obvious fallacy of argument.

Did I say they're comparable? Where did I say that?

Moonshot_1 identified Nazi Germany and the USSR as enemies whose adversaries we supplied with arms. And then he asked you to identify the enemy targeted with the fast and furious arms. You supplied "the Mexican government" as your answer. I had assumed you were just being funny. But it seems you have since decided to back fill your original sarcastic answer with your little rant regarding how the Mexican government is our enemy. You made the comparison when you provided your answer.

[Psychotic Bovine]

Tinfoil hat version.  
That's pretty good, because we know no government in the world has ever perpetrated anything for political gain or to sway public opinion.  That just NEVER happens.

Right, like 9/11.

You are assuming I am one of those 9/11 "inside job" believers.  Uh, yeah, right.  The shear magnitude of the people involved to drop two buildings and damage a third make the whole idea of it being an inside job a serious joke.  And that's just that one aspect of it.
I was embarrassed to be on the same planet as Rosie O'donnel and Charlie Sheen when they talked about it being an inside job.  Operation Fast and Furious isn't even on the same level.  Kind of a lame stretch, in my opinion, to even suggest it.
But, I am pretty sure you just talk out of your a$$ to get people riled up, so that's your problem.  But, as a side note, I said "we know no government in the world has ever perpetrated anything for political gain or to sway public opinion" just to see if you would jump the shark and mention 9/11.  Very linear thinking.....  Linear, but wrong.

[FloridaValkRyder]

OK..just can't resist. We seem to be a pretty conservative crowd here! But you know what? I hope to meet Anvil one day and shake his hand. This guy has such a liberal slant on EVERYTHING but he is true to his cause. I disagree with nearly everything he says, as do most of us apparently. But you have to love the conviction and dedication to his own cause..wrong as it may be..LOL!

[Jess from VA]

But you have to love the conviction and dedication to his own cause..wrong as it may be..LOL!

No you don't. 

[The Anvil]

You are assuming I am one of those 9/11 "inside job" believers.  

Actually I had no idea what your feeling was on that. I was just pointing out that everything can (and usually will be) turned into a conspiracy theory by someone. But it doesn't make it a conspiracy. Sometimes the simple answer is the right one.

But the Mexican government IS our enemy. Not the traditional saber rattling enemies we're used to (they're smarter than that), but enemy nonetheless.