The future of American manufacturing

[Chillerman]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/13/business/with-chevrolet-sonic-gm-and-uaw-reinvent-automaking.html

I watched a story about this GM plant this morning.  The truth hurts!  Marginally skilled U.S. workers are going to have to take pay cuts if they want employment and to stay employed. The cost to employ a full-wage union auto worker is close to $60/hr.  In contrast the cost of an auto worker in Mexico is under $10/hr.  U.S. manufacturers don't have much choice.  If they want to be competetive they have to ship jobs outside the country. 

It will definitely will be interesting to see if this GM plant stays afloat and what affect it will have on the future of american manufacturing.

[Devl]

Then we all must also be prepared to live like they live in Mexico....
Is that the America we all want to have??
"World trade" was created to bring 3rd world countries out of poverty....
all its done is lower America's standard of living.

[The Anvil]

Then we all must also be prepared to live like they live in Mexico....
Is that the America we all want to have??
"World trade" was created to bring 3rd world countries out of poverty....
all its done is lower America's standard of living.

Pretty much 

[Chillerman]

Then we all must also be prepared to live like they live in Mexico....
Is that the America we all want to have??
"World trade" was created to bring 3rd world countries out of poverty....
all its done is lower America's standard of living.

It's interesting that liberals want to take money from the wealthy in America and give it to the less fortunate, but aren't prepared for the consequences. They support overpaid, underskilled union workers and bash corporations for sending jobs overseas. Many think that installing door panels or dashboards or windshields or steering columns etc. is a highly skilled trade that ought to be compensated accordingly. The truth is, anyone with half a brain can accomplish these tasks. And at $30/hr + they are grossly overpaid. The same can be said for many of the union workers in the US.

It would appear that the liberal agenda is to bring everyone in the US to a common standard of living. Why would it be different for our brothers in Mexico? Let's bring our standard of living down and theirs up. What the hell, why not?   

[Jeff K]

Back when there were fewer imports coming in to this country we lived with less. Better quality products, but less of them. The cost was higher, and the quality was better. Things would last 20 years or more. TVs, appliances, cars all better quality but pricey. We lived with less. As a young married family we didn't have anything that was new, used car, used TV, used appliances. We could never have afforded a new car, or a new fridge. Now that the cheaper imports come into the country we have a bunch of "stuff" that we can now afford because it is made cheaper out of this country. We have houses full of "stuff". So we could go back. We could close the borders to imports. But the consequence would be that we would have to get used to living with less again. Because the cost of products would go up and the "average" household wouldn't be able to afford the "stuff" that we make. There wouldn't be an Xbox in every home, and 3 d plasmas in every room of the house.

How much do you think an ipad would cost if it were made with union labor in the US? how many would you have?

 

[PharmBoy]

Does anyone remember a presidential canditate named H. Ross Perot and what he said about hearing the deafening swishing sound of jobs leaving this country if "Free Trade Laws" were passed?  There is just no way to compete with the labor markets of under developed countries, especially if your own industries provide them with the technology, materials, and the manufacturing equipment...Jim   

[The Anvil]

It's funny, on the one hand I hear people bitching about government interference in business and on the other I hear some of those same people bitching that government isn't doing enough to protect domestic trade.

Ain't deregulation frigging GREAT??? 

[bigvalkriefan]

Then we all must also be prepared to live like they live in Mexico....
Is that the America we all want to have??
"World trade" was created to bring 3rd world countries out of poverty....
all its done is lower America's standard of living.

Yup now your getting it. Its impossible to bring the rest of the world up to our standard of living so the plan is to lower ours. It's being done through over regulation, the Obama health care plan entitlements etc.

[Chillerman]

Then we all must also be prepared to live like they live in Mexico....
Is that the America we all want to have??
"World trade" was created to bring 3rd world countries out of poverty....
all its done is lower America's standard of living.

Pretty much 

So, the proponents of spreading the wealth are all well and good as long as it's within the borders. Just don't try to spread the wealth to foreign countries  . And if it affects your standard of living then hell no!!!!! 

[BigAl]

Even Playing Field.

We must become more competitive.

New World Order.

This was Gearge H W Bush.

That said these things.

The middleclass is a thing of the past.

They want us riding a bicycle to work and carrying a little mp3 in our pocket spouting the phrase.

Be happy in your work, be happy in your work, be happy in your work.

All the while the ones that won't work are voting the democrat back in again.

The owners of the big outfits will still be fine and the doctors and lawyers and politicians will still be fat and happy.

If this is what you want keep buying that crap from Walmart made in China.

Wake up before it is too late.

[Chillerman]

All the while the ones that won't work are voting the democrat back in again.

There is no greater truth than that!! 

[The Anvil]

Then we all must also be prepared to live like they live in Mexico....
Is that the America we all want to have??
"World trade" was created to bring 3rd world countries out of poverty....
all its done is lower America's standard of living.

Pretty much 

So, the proponents of spreading the wealth are all well and good as long as it's within the borders. Just don't try to spread the wealth to foreign countries  . And if it affects your standard of living then hell no!!!!! 

Pretty much, yeah. Am I supposed to feel guilty for wanting to see America as number 1 and leading the world?

[Robert]

I have read all the posts and all have merit but the auto industry is not really a good example. The pay and the benefits paid to auto workers because of the union and government regs was way to high. How is it a guy that has no knowledge of how to do anything but say put in a windshield should get 3 times the pay and benefits of the guy in the field that has to repair the cars? On the line you do one job doesn't change much and you have no capital investment yet can buy cars at below wholesale have excellent health care retirement and sick days. The training isn't that much either. Now to repair the cars there is a investment of tools, scanners, training, location, government regs, and if you are a tech the hourly wage is 25 to 30 an hour. Usually no benefits and maybe health care that you pay half. Most trades are this way.  Most manufacturing jobs dont pay what the auto industry did. How about a middle ground like the rest of the US has to do except bankers, politicians and head of corporations. Not a total devaluation of the US auto worker but a level that is reasonable. Also lets not forget OSHA and EPA, unemployment insurance workers comp and other government industries that drive up the price of doing buisness. Its not just the American worker that drives the prices up in fact in most cases the American worker is already taken huge pay cuts in the prices of good increase, inflation and the fact that the dollar is just a piece of paper now thanks to the very people that are supposed to protect us. I say the American worker is still the best so dont blame all this mess on us all . Roll back govt control dont eliminate it. I think the American worker is getting a bum rap even the auto workers.

[The Anvil]

How about a middle ground like the rest of the US has to do except bankers, politicians and head of corporations. Not a total devaluation of the US auto worker but a level that is reasonable.

Because government handouts aren't enough for corporations. They want REPARATIONS as well.

[Chillerman]

Because government handouts aren't enough for the people that don't want to work. They want REPARATIONS as well.

 

[The Anvil]

Because government handouts aren't enough for the people that don't want to work. They want REPARATIONS as well.

 

How is what I said wrong?

[Stude]

 After reading all this I just shake my head I don't want to piss anyone one off for what s(he) believes in. But think back 20 or 30 years when ever the BIG 3 had a contract everyone waited to see what we got. Then your phone bill , gas bill , electric bill , property taxes and lets not forget the Arab party stores would all put in a price increase, everyone would get more money. Now out of all the fish in the sea who is the only one that made out like a bandit. "Our gov." made out, because more money was changing hands which means more taxes collected. Now take a hard honest look at what we have. The imports from China for example pays about 4% tariff. Now on the flip side G.M. pays China 28% tariff. China doesn't have union labor, health insurance E.P.A. rules or O.S.H.A. fines added to the cost. So why would the C.E.O.s want to invest money here when they stand to make more money making products overseas and ship it back here. And why does our gov. allow this because our gov. is making money off the under handed deals they are cutting to allow it. And all the while they need a smoke screen so brain wash the simple minded in thinking the root of our problem is union labor. So in the future if you want to make a living for your family or have money to buy anything how will you pay for it? No jobs and what jobs are here won't pay enough to live on. And the flip side of that is if we are not paying customers why would they want ship the stuff here.

GOG BLESS AND HELP AMERICA

[Gator John]

I posted this on the Michigan board last week, but it seems to have relevance to the current discussion:

Got tired of having to slam the passenger's door to get the blower motor to run on our car (wiring short in motor/ common problem on older Devilles). After reading how to do it and where to buy the assembly on an owner's forum on line, I had to decide whether to get one made in Taiwan for $37 or a genuine GM Part (AC Delco) for $171 (can't imagine what a dealer would have charged), I opted for the former with just a tinge of guilt for not buying American. My guilt went away when I pulled out the original blower assembly that had a label on it that read "made in Korea."

[Stude]

that is the point I was making

I posted this on the Michigan board last week, but it seems to have relevance to the current discussion:

Got tired of having to slam the passenger's door to get the blower motor to run on our car (wiring short in motor/ common problem on older Devilles). After reading how to do it and where to buy the assembly on an owner's forum on line, I had to decide whether to get one made in Taiwan for $37 or a genuine GM Part (AC Delco) for $171 (can't imagine what a dealer would have charged), I opted for the former with just a tinge of guilt for not buying American. My guilt went away when I pulled out the original blower assembly that had a label on it that read "made in Korea."

[Willow]

  ... I don't want to piss anyone one off for what s(he) believes in.
... so brain wash the simple minded in thinking the root of our problem is union labor.

Dave, allow me to point out (in a kind way, of course) there is something inconsistent in the above communication.    

[Stude]

  Well it's a good thing I did not say how I really feel. No one said anything about where this country would be in terms of higher learning had it not been for union labor. The union workers helped set the pace for non-union workers pay rate which opened the door for people to send their kids to college.
 I will stop here so I dont offend anyone.
 

 

ing ing

  ... I don't want to piss anyone one off for what s(he) believes in.
... so brain wash the simple minded in thinking the root of our problem is union labor.

Dave, allow me to point out (in a kind way, of course) there is something inconsistent in the above communication.    

[Momz]

As we celebrate Labor Day today, lets thank the labor unions for helping create the American middle class.

It is to bad that our middle class is shrinking at an alarming rate.
As a matter of fact MIs Republican senator Joe Hune has tied a rider on to an auto insurance bill that would cap the pay rate of nurses to maximum of $11.00 per hour for LPNs and $17.00 per hour for certified RNs.

The conservatives are trying to eliminate the middle class. It is easier to control the masses when they have nothing to strive for.

[RoadKill]

When no one can afford a 40 thousand dollar car, (or have credit to buy one ) I wonder if GM will still pay the unions the contracted wages to build cars no one is buying ?  When the local plant pays 50 bucks an hour, the local standard of living increases,out of the same greed, and no one bitches because they can afford it..and then pretty soon they are the only ones that can afford the products they produce. What happens when they move the plant to another state that will work cheaper? The union steps in and "helps" that new states labor force and then Jobs go out of country. PERIOD!

[Stude]

 Kind of like what they did 15 years ago... used the money from profits they made off the American workers to build plants in Asia instead of handing out profit sharing checks or reinvesting to update American plants. And guess what they said about the American work force when Asia showed a profit.
" North America Is Not Included " and our answer to that was "Oh THANK-YOU"

[RoadKill]

Kind of like what they did 15 years ago... used the money from profits they made off the American workers to build plants in Asia instead of handing out profit sharing checks or reinvesting to update American plants. And guess what they said about the American work force when Asia showed a profit.
" North America Is Not Included " and our answer to that was "Oh THANK-YOU"

Why is it so much more profitable to ship thing back and fourth and pay all the import/export taxes than it would be to have it produced in the 'States ?

[bludragon]

While on this subject can anyone confirm if the GMC Terrain is manufactured in Detroit or in the USA.
I would also like to know if all GMC products are made in the USA.
How about the Chrysler 300.
I will be purchasing a new vehicle and it must be made in USA

[RoadKill]

While on this subject can anyone confirm if the GMC Terrain is manufactured in Detroit or in the USA.
I would also like to know if all GMC products are made in the USA.
How about the Chrysler 300.
I will be purchasing a new vehicle and it must be made in USA

Now we need to know what your definition of 'made in USA' is....the people putting the little stickers on that say 'made in USA' may have a different definition entirely.

[The Anvil]

My Nissan Pathfinder is built here in the US of A, my "buy American!" neighbor's F150 is not. You should have seen his face when I pointed that out. 

I will support a foreign company bringing jobs INTO the US before I support an "American" company that's taking them out.

[3fan4life]

As a matter of fact MIs Republican senator Joe Hune has tied a rider on to an auto insurance bill that would cap the pay rate of nurses to maximum of $11.00 per hour for LPNs and $17.00 per hour for certified RNs.

The conservatives are trying to eliminate the middle class. It is easier to control the masses when they have nothing to strive for.

Are you sure about those numbers ?

Nurses make more than that here in VA and wages in this state are typically much lower than Michigan. 

[Serk]

While on this subject can anyone confirm if the GMC Terrain is manufactured in Detroit or in the USA.
I would also like to know if all GMC products are made in the USA.
How about the Chrysler 300.
I will be purchasing a new vehicle and it must be made in USA

Look up any vehicle you're interested in on Wikipedia, it usually says...

GMC Terrain - Assembly    Ingersoll, Ontario, Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMC_Terrain

Chrysler 300 - Assembly    Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Graz, Austria
Beijing, China

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_300


So, looks like the answer is no for both of those two...

[Gator John]

While on this subject can anyone confirm if the GMC Terrain is manufactured in Detroit or in the USA.
I would also like to know if all GMC products are made in the USA.
How about the Chrysler 300.
I will be purchasing a new vehicle and it must be made in USA

There is no such thing as pure "Made in USA" when it comes to major US automobile manufacturers. It may be assembled in the USA, but I guarantee you it has components made in foreign countries.  Of the big 3, historically GM has had the highest domestic content, Ford is 2nd, and Chrysler has had the least. And each one is getting lower every year. Part of my job before I retired a couple years ago was to stay abreast of that information, so I've seen the data.  I can only imagine what they are down to now.

[Momz]

3fan4life,

Most nurses in the state of MI make twice the proposed cap limits by Senator Joe Hune.
Senator Hune wants to break unions in order to lower auto insurance rates, but is in favor of increaseing M/C rates by requireing 100K Personal Insurance Protection in addtion to the required minimum 20K that is already required to insure and ride a Motorcycle in MI.

[3fan4life]

3fan4life,

Most nurses in the state of MI make twice the proposed cap limits by Senator Joe Hune.
Senator Hune wants to break unions in order to lower auto insurance rates, but is in favor of increaseing M/C rates by requireing 100K Personal Insurance Protection in addtion to the required minimum 20K that is already required to insure and ride a Motorcycle in MI.

I don't think that this particular bill is an attempt to break unions, I think that it is an attempt to save the insurance companies money.

I looked up his proposed bill online, what little information that I could find leads me to believe that he isn't trying to cap their actual pay.

Rather he is trying to cap the amount that can be claimed as reimbursment on an auto claim.

The way that I interpret it, If his part of the bill passes anyone that is in an accident and requires care from a nurse will be left on the hook for the difference between the cap and the actual pay.

Which if that is the case, EVERYONE in MI should be up in arms about this.


If you ask me, you guys up there in MI need to vote this idiot out of office, and please do so before he becomes a national candidate of any kind.


Right now he is YOUR problem.............. If he makes it to the US Congress or Senate he becomes EVERYONES problem.
 

[MCRIDER]

My Nissan Pathfinder is built here in the US of A, my "buy American!" neighbor's F150 is not. You should have seen his face when I pointed that out. 

Ha, ha.  Your nissan was made in japan and assembled here.  The Ford was made mostly in the U.S. and assembled elsewhere.  Prove it to yourself.  Go to your nissan dealer and ask for a variety of OEM parts that fit your model and see where the packaging says "made in japan".  Keep asking for parts until you find any that say Made in U.S.A.  Be sure to send us a picture of your face.  2funny.

[The Anvil]

My Nissan Pathfinder is built here in the US of A, my "buy American!" neighbor's F150 is not. You should have seen his face when I pointed that out. 

Ha, ha.  Your nissan was made in japan and assembled here.  The Ford was made mostly in the U.S. and assembled elsewhere.  Prove it to yourself.  Go to your nissan dealer and ask for a variety of OEM parts that fit your model and see where the packaging says "made in japan".  Keep asking for parts until you find any that say Made in U.S.A.  Be sure to send us a picture of your face.  2funny.

I'm aware of the foreign parts content but that's the same with a lot of manufacturers, including Ford. Ford's foreign parts content is about the same as most other manufacturers.

But if you want to keep buying Mexican go right ahead and tell yourself it's okay. 

[bscrive]

I don't know if you guys have seen this joke before but I got it today and it is relevant to this discussion.

"The government today announced that it was changing its symbol from and Eagle to a Condom, because it more accurately reflects the government's stance...A condom allows for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of dicks, and gives you a sense of security while you're actually being screwed!"

 

[Stude]

 I am guessing that you are refering to my post... I did not say Auto Workers Union sets the wages,
"  The union workers helped set the pace for non-union workers pay rate " and it is not a dollar for dollar match it was more of a guide line for corporations to lure the productive works to stay on the payroll. I worked in non union Tool & Die shops for 10 years and 2 of them years in Aircraft machining for $5.00 below union scale.

The auto industry is not typical of manufacturing wages and never has been.  Manufacturing wages have remained stagnant for the past 15 years.  Even for major corporations, it is still $12-13 an hour.

American manufacturing depends upon having first-class products to build.  US airplanes, computer chips, power generating equipment, medicine, and medical equipment are all world leaders in high technology.  Cars and PC's really aren't high tech anymore.  World-class high technology in our products, combined with efficient manufacturing is the only effective path forward.

[musclehead]

My Nissan Pathfinder is built here in the US of A, my "buy American!" neighbor's F150 is not. You should have seen his face when I pointed that out. 

Ha, ha.  Your nissan was made in japan and assembled here.  The Ford was made mostly in the U.S. and assembled elsewhere.  Prove it to yourself.  Go to your nissan dealer and ask for a variety of OEM parts that fit your model and see where the packaging says "made in japan".  Keep asking for parts until you find any that say Made in U.S.A.  Be sure to send us a picture of your face.  2funny.

I'm aware of the foreign parts content but that's the same with a lot of manufacturers, including Ford. Ford's foreign parts content is about the same as most other manufacturers.

But if you want to keep buying Mexican go right ahead and tell yourself it's okay. 

si senor mi freightliner was made over the rio grande     I got 8.9 MPG today sooooo..... i'm ok with that for now.......