Wheel bearing question?

[fordmano]

Looks like it's time to swap some wheel bearings, got me a funny feeling when leaning into turns(mostly left turns).

So I decided to just go ahead and swap all the wheel bearings front and rear.
So now my question is for the rear I am planning on changing over to the wider 5204 bearings on both sides, I have the replacement bearings in hand and they are not rubber sealed on both sides they are actuall STEEL sealed on both sides???? I looked and looked for what seemed to be hours prior to ordering them and some how I missed the designation of the steel side seals I know they had a higher RPM rating for grease or oil lube than most any others I saw online.

Can I safely use these or should I toss them out and re-order others with plastic or rubber side seals?
These are 5204CFF steel/C3/ABEC-1 packaged and sold under the company name MRC from what I found they are U.S. made.

Thanks in advance,
Matt

[MP]

I would not hesitate to use them.  ALL the bearings I use here on the farm are steel sealed, and they hold up to tons more dirt than the Valk will EVER see.

MP

[fordmano]

Are you sure? Cus you folks on farms tend to be a bit slower than us nut cases in the big city, and were sure you folks ride that way too,,,, Right?

Thanks that's exactly what I figured.

[designer]

hey fordmano, does it make a whinning sound when going into the curve?  I was thinking the same thing this morning.  Sounds good when I'm going straight, but into right sweeping curves at high speeds it makes that whinning nose of a bad bearing....  I think I'm going to start with the front bearings and see if that fixes it until the winter when I can do the rears. 

[Hoser]

The left rear bearing is the most likely to fail.  If you do the double row conversion and that fixes it, I see no reason to replace the other three.  I have never replaced any of the others at 91k miles, I will when they make noise. I have a set in my parts bin. Hoser

[Craig N. AZ]

I don’t think you can use the double bearing on both sides because the bearing pocket on the left side is not deep enough for the wider bearing. I haven’t measured it but you should check it out before ordering the new bearings.

[Craig N. AZ]

I don’t think you can use the double bearing on both sides because the bearing pocket on the left side is not deep enough for the wider bearing. I haven’t measured it but you should check it out before ordering the new bearings.

I found this on shoptalk  http://www.valkyrieriders.com/shoptalk/5204_bearing_mod.pdf
It seems the pocket will fit the wider bearing but not with the seal.

[Patrick]

There have been many more failures of the left rear bearing over the years than any of the other three, including the smaller front bearings of the '97s..

[Westsider]

as soon as your tire/tires, get slightly worn, in the middle of the tread, you know youll get the same feels / noise/ right?

[designer]

as soon as your tire/tires, get slightly worn, in the middle of the tread, you know youll get the same feels / noise/ right?

Are you saying the noise I hear in the curve might be tire related?  I"ll have to see if I hear it on my way home in both left and right turns.

[Ricky-D]

as soon as your tire/tires, get slightly worn, in the middle of the tread, you know youll get the same feels / noise/ right?

Are you saying the noise I hear in the curve might be tire related?  I"ll have to see if I hear it on my way home in both left and right turns.

The front tire will not wear evenly.  The left side will wear much more than the right side.

Seems like the sound (from either side) would not be the same, leading you to a wrong conclusion.

***

[Cruzen]

Are you saying the noise I hear in the curve might be tire related?  I"ll have to see if I hear it on my way home in both left and right turns.

When my front tire starts to get worn down it makes what sounds/feels like a slight bearing wear noise when leaned over to either side a bit.  New tires make the noise go away. I run AVON Cobra's.

[lucky_1_chris]

as soon as your tire/tires, get slightly worn, in the middle of the tread, you know youll get the same feels / noise/ right?

Are you saying the noise I hear in the curve might be tire related?  I"ll have to see if I hear it on my way home in both left and right turns.

That's what it was with mine. After my Avons started breaking in I started getting a little vibe in turns, and I always attributed it to the tire. Short while later I could actually hear it and the vibe was worse. Short while after that it was loud enough that I thought my bearings were going...

Everyone here said it was prolly the tires, but I swapped all the bearings out anyway just in case...

Noise and vibe are still there. My noise has to be the tires. The Cobras have wide cut tread, and mine are pretty noisy in curves. Wish I had my time and money back for the bearing swap, but I guess I had to know for sure.

Yours could very well be a bearing. If you're like me it'll be a splinter in your brain everytime you ride til you know one way or the other. If you do swap bearings and it turns out to be the tires, at least you won't be the first to go through all the trouble for nothin.

[fordmano]

Mine does not seem to make any change in noise during left or right turns or straight at any speed, but I get what I am not sure I hear it more than feel it is like a light clicking primarily during left turns and speed only seems to make a little faster.

I had a strange wallow or wobble feeling when riding straight up at Highway speeds and the bike tracked road imperfections at low speed really bad. This is what started my big old Multipoint upgrade project list. Wanted to address what I thought was tires or suspension problem. Well looks like I managed to get a bad set of progressive 416's air shocks working with progressive currently to fix that although it could cause handling issues it won't make clicking noise or feelings. So the only thing I did not change out was wheel bearings so that's what I am doing now.

[Chrisj CMA]

The left rear bearing is the most likely to fail.

Hoser, that is outrageous prophesy, designed to promote an agenda, unsubstantiated by the facts, of modification in an unproven area.

Scare talk in it's most blatant form.

***

OK, heres a fact.  I only had one wheel bearing fail.....it was the left rear.  Two other riders I help with their bikes only had one bearing fail....you guessed it left rear.  no agenda, no BS just cold hard facts

[Westsider]

Ya Matt..i can almost tell how bad/good my tires are / more so the rear / by how much noise / vibes / it makes in the turns..another reason im giving the darkside more thought..again.. but check it out.. i would think a bad bearing would be REALLY  obvious,,but iv'e never had one go out..feel the rear tire ,,if your getting a little wear in the middle ,you will be getting that feedback in turns,,as soon as you lean any ,over the wear pattern.. Paul.

edit..............lets hear what you find out on her....

[04strider]

Bearings that have metal shields instead of rubber seals, are not completely sealed.  There is a slight gap between the shield and race to allow liquified grease to reach the inside of the bearing.  As such they should only be used in an application where they are sealed from the elements.  Use a bearing with a 2RS or EE designation instead.

[fordmano]

The feeling started within 1,000 miles on the new Avons they were balanced and they had the clicking feeling not a whine or whir hum or growl like a tire tread issue so I am praying I am correct and if I am I have the new bearings in hand already when inpull the wheels off next week.

I now have around 4,000 miles on the new set of tires and I even added Ride-On tire sealant balancer seemed to help with the normal tire to road noise and definately made the bike ride smoother at road speeds but still have the clicking and it is getting progressively worse and fast.

Thanks guys I will report back when I get it figured out. Gotta get my truck back on the road prior to working on the Valkyrie that's my wife's rules...

[fordmano]

Bearings that have metal shields instead of rubber seals, are not completely sealed.  There is a slight gap between the shield and race to allow liquified grease to reach the inside of the bearing.  As such they should only be used in an application where they are sealed from the elements.  Use a bearing with a 2RS or EE designation instead.

Damn it, I was really hoping nobody would say that. Just curious if the plastic ones were bonded to both the inner and outer ring(race) of the bearing wouldn't it just tear loose and the. Also have a small gap? Or if the plastic is only attached to one race won't it then spin and heat and then wear out leaving a small gap also?

[JetDriver]

The left rear bearing is the most likely to fail.

Hoser, that is outrageous prophesy, designed to promote an agenda, unsubstantiated by the facts, of modification in an unproven area.

Scare talk in it's most blatant form.

***

No agenda here.  I replaced my left rear bearing early this summer.

[Cruzen]

The feeling started within 1,000 miles on the new Avons they were balanced and they had the clicking feeling not a whine or whir hum or growl like a tire tread issue so I am praying I am correct and if I am I have the new bearings in hand already when inpull the wheels off next week.

I now have around 4,000 miles on the new set of tires and I even added Ride-On tire sealant balancer seemed to help with the normal tire to road noise and definately made the bike ride smoother at road speeds but still have the clicking and it is getting progressively worse and fast.

Thanks guys I will report back when I get it figured out. Gotta get my truck back on the road prior to working on the Valkyrie that's my wife's rules...

I do not see where you indicate how many miles you have on your bike.  I recently had a similar problem with that clicking sound which kept getting louder.  Mine also started right after I had a rear tire replaced.  It turned out to be my universal joint.  It was actually pretty destroyed by the time I took it out.  I had 52K on my bike when it went out.

[fordmano]

Mileage is about 26,000.

Cruzen was your U-joint ever serviced at all? I have not done anything to mine yet. The clicking feeling/sound only happens when in a left lean.

[04strider]

The rubber seals in a sealed bearing are not bonded to both races, but seal much like a lip seal does on a shaft. Seals but still allows rotation.  Sealed bearings also come lubed for life, and when the grease in the bearing eventually wears out, thats it, the bearing will eventually fail.  This life is directly related to load and speed.

[Valkpilot]

The left rear bearing is the most likely to fail.

Hoser, that is outrageous prophesy, designed to promote an agenda, unsubstantiated by the facts, of modification in an unproven area.

Scare talk in it's most blatant form.

***

OK, heres a fact.  I only had one wheel bearing fail.....it was the left rear.  Two other riders I help with their bikes only had one bearing fail....you guessed it left rear.  no agenda, no BS just cold hard facts

Mine too, along with some other riders I can bring to mind immediately.

The data, however anecdotal at this point, indicates that Hoser made an accurate statement.

[MP]

Bearings that have metal shields instead of rubber seals, are not completely sealed.  There is a slight gap between the shield and race to allow liquified grease to reach the inside of the bearing.  As such they should only be used in an application where they are sealed from the elements.  Use a bearing with a 2RS or EE designation instead.

Then why are ALL of the bearings the OEM spec for my farm machinery equipped with metal shields?  They are used inside of combines, outside in the dirt on farm equipment, etc.

Far WORSE conditions than on any Valk, and they last for YEARS?  Thousands of hours of use.

NONE of them are "sealed from the elements", or have any "liquified grease" coming into them.

Maybe the bearings you are used to with metal shields do this, but mine most certainly do NOT.

MP

[Hoser]

The left rear bearing is the most likely to fail.

Hoser, that is outrageous prophesy, designed to promote an agenda, unsubstantiated by the facts, of modification in an unproven area.

Scare talk in it's most blatant form.

***

OK, heres a fact.  I only had one wheel bearing fail.....it was the left rear.  Two other riders I help with their bikes only had one bearing fail....you guessed it left rear.  no agenda, no BS just cold hard facts

Mine too, along with some other riders I can bring to mind immediately.

The data, however anecdotal at this point, indicates that Hoser made an accurate statement.

Jeez, Ricky, no need to get so upset, the left rear is the only one I have had fail,  I don't get this agenda thing, I don't have any stock in a bearing company,  and there is a well defined procedure to install a double row bearing on this site,  and I will follow it the next time the left rear fails, if it does. Hoser 

[R J]

I haven't heard a thing about tire pressure.

When I was younger and stupid I ran what the sidewall said, after 3 sets of tires in one season I said BS, we is a umpin the pressure, in the front and lowering the air in the CT.   I think I'm on like my 7th or 8th CT.      Current one has about 1,500 miles on it.    Son has been riding it instead of his chopper, and lovers the CT.    He cussed me when I put my 1st CT on, he said I was trying to kill him.   Told him to slow the F*** down till he got used to it.   

I run 45 to 50 in the front, (Metzler 880) and 36 in the Goodyear Triple Tread car tire on the rear.

If I was a bettin man, which I am by the way, I'll put my $$$$ on the nag in the 5th race.      Her name be tires.

[Dragon-6]

Tires/tire pressure.  Had the same noise with the E3s and it stopped when I changed the tires...which were due.

[fordmano]

I have tried moving air up and down but just a little bit.
Oh M/C specific tires front and rear currently Avon Cobras spin balanced when installed also added Ride-On about 2,500-3,000 ago with the extra recommended for balancing.

I have adjusted air as low as 39 and up 43.5 PSI on both tires has not made any difference in feeling or noise. Yes I expect some noise when turning/leaning and that would be normal road type noises scuffing growling maybe even whining, but not clicking like your running over a long line of very tiny lane markers (the little reflectors between the lanes but tiny like pencil size at high speed.)

Does that shed any better light on what I am going through?
I will be up to my eyeballs for the next few days under the hood of my 02-F350 Diesel 4X4 Dually doing some long needed engine work sonbike is on back burner till atleast next week I will pull the rear wheel first then try to determine if the bearings on either side actually feel bad then decide if I am swapping them out. And then I will pull the front and investigate that set also. Then I wil report back what I have found and if and repairs I do help or hurt my current condition!


Now you all stop getting your feathers in a bunch at each other over my problems. 

[fordmano]

I guess that should have been "Panties in a Bunch" or "Ruffling your Feathers".

[Valkpilot]

... next week I will pull the rear wheel first then try to determine if the bearings on either side actually feel bad then decide if I am swapping them out.

When you test them with your fingers to feel for roughness, apply some side load (push in or pull out) as you rotate the bearing.

I had the same symptoms you do, but the bearing felt smooth until I side-loaded it along with rotation.  Then I could feel that it was going bad.

Rainmaker experienced the same thing.

[04strider]

Not trying to get in an argument, just stating the difference between shielded and sealed bearings.  The following is directly from SKF Bearings literature


Sealing arrangements - Selection of seal types - Integral bearing seals

SKF supplies several bearing types fitted with shields or contact seals on one or both sides. These provide an economic and space-saving solution to many sealing problems. Bearings with shields or seals on both sides are supplied already greased and are generally maintenance-free. Actual seal designs are described in detail in the introductory text to the relevant bearing table sections.

Bearings with shields
Bearings fitted with shields (fig 49), are used for arrangements where contamination is not heavy and where there is no danger of water, steam etc. coming into contact with the bearing. Shields are also used in applications where reduced friction is important due to speed or operating temperature considerations.

Shields are made from sheet steel and form
–    a long sealing gap with the land of the inner ring shoulder (a) or
–    an efficient labyrinth seal with a recess in the inner ring shoulder (b).

Bearings with contact seals
Bearings with contact seals, referred to simply as seals are preferred for arrangements were contamination is moderate and where the presence of moisture or water spray etc. cannot be ruled out, or where a long service life without maintenance is required.

[Craig N. AZ]

... next week I will pull the rear wheel first then try to determine if the bearings on either side actually feel bad then decide if I am swapping them out.

When you test them with your fingers to feel for roughness, apply some side load (push in or pull out) as you rotate the bearing.

I had the same symptoms you do, but the bearing felt smooth until I side-loaded it along with rotation.  Then I could feel that it was going bad.

Rainmaker experienced the same thing.

+1 ... I just got done replacing both rear wheel bearing but only the left one seemed bad.

[lucky_1_chris]

Ya Matt..i can almost tell how bad/good my tires are / more so the rear / by how much noise / vibes / it makes in the turns..another reason im giving the darkside more thought..again.. but check it out.. i would think a bad bearing would be REALLY  obvious,,but iv'e never had one go out..feel the rear tire ,,if your getting a little wear in the middle ,you will be getting that feedback in turns,,as soon as you lean any ,over the wear pattern.. Paul.

edit..............lets hear what you find out on her....

Mine are pretty damn loud in curves. My rear tire is cupped kinda...not real bad, but bad enough to feel with my hand. I chewed through 2 sets of of shock bushings in under 9k miles (one polyurethane, one stock). I'm pretty heavy (closer to 300 than 2) but damn that seems excessive. I couldn't adjust the stock shocks. Not on the ground, not on the jack, and not on the jack with another jack under the rear wheel. I actually dented the stockers trying to adjust them. They wouldn't budge either way. I just installed a set of 440's, and I hope the rear tire wear won't be as bad with the new shocks. If my next set wear like these, I'm with you and going DS.


To the OP, if it's clicking and grinding it's prolly the bearings. If it doesn't improve after a bearing swap look elsewhere. I'm trying to imagine how a tire would "click", but I can't. If they're cupped pretty bad I can understand the "riding over pencils" thing, but not "clicking". I also can't see how the u-joint would cause problems only in curves/turns.

[X Ring]

+1 ... I just got done replacing both rear wheel bearing but only the left one seemed bad.

Every time I've done the Double Row Bearing Mod I have always replace the right bearing also.  That way I start with two bearings of equal age and miles.

Marty

[Madmike]

here is a link to a paper that has some illustrations that shows the difference between shields and seals in bearings.... refers to motor bearings but the principles are well described

http://www.reliance.com/prodserv/motgen/b5021.htm#Shielded%20Bearing

[X Ring]

here is a link to a paper that has some illustrations that shows the difference between shields and seals in bearings.... refers to motor bearings but the principles are well described

http://www.reliance.com/prodserv/motgen/b5021.htm#Shielded%20Bearing

That's pretty good Madmike considering our wheel bearings are actually electrical motor bearings.  Btw, for those of you who haven't read my Shoptalk article, the bearings I use are SKF 3204-2RS.  3204 is the European designation for 5204 bearings.

Marty

[Cruzen]

Mileage is about 26,000.

Cruzen was your U-joint ever serviced at all? I have not done anything to mine yet. The clicking feeling/sound only happens when in a left lean.

Sorry to be somewhat late with this as I was on a road trip. 

There is no servicing to be done to the universal unless you consider greasing the splines but that is not what broke on mine.  Mine started out with left hand turns.  As I leave my garage I turn left onto the street and I would feel and hear a few clicks.  Then the same at the first left hand corner.  Then it kept getting worse and finally it was all the time.  I also started to get vibrations when running at 60-80 which made the bike feel more like a Harley.  You can see how bad mine was if you check this out:

http://www.facebook.com/media/albums/?id=100001784281123

I don't know if you have to be a member of Facebook to see this as I am just learning about Facebook.

As far as the bearings.  Honda used ball bearings.  From an engineering stand point, ball bearings are junk.  Cars manufactured after 1960 use roller bearings.  I converted the ball bearing hubs in my 55 and 57 Chevys to roller bearings.  The originall ball bearings required repacking every 10K miles and complete replacement every 30K. The roller bearings require repacking every 25-30 K miles.  The ball bearing sounded like sand when going around a corner, the rolller bearings have no sound.  I am currently looking for sealed roller bearings to put into my Valk.

[Bone]

Facebook wants us to sign-in I hope you don't mind I posted your pictures.

[X Ring]

Facebook wants us to sign-in I hope you don't mind I posted your pictures.

 

Marty