Fuel question

[9Ball]

Octane ratings in Colorado are 85, 87, and 89....with 85 being regular and 89 premium.

They're lower due to altitude issues.  Running up to the top of Mt Washington at a little over 6,000 feet and then back down isn't like riding from Denver through Vail and over to Leadville....many areas near or above 10,000 feet.

Your mind is made up and so is mine.  good luck...

[The Anvil]

Octane ratings in Colorado are 85, 87, and 89....with 85 being regular and 89 premium.

They're lower due to altitude issues.  Running up to the top of Mt Washington at a little over 6,000 feet and then back down isn't like riding from Denver through Vail and over to Leadville....many areas near or above 10,000 feet.

Your mind is made up and so is mine.  good luck...

They're lower because you have less dense air making for a lower combustion chamber temperature under compression largely doing away the need for anything higher (and more expensive) than 89. But that doesn't mean that anything higher of a higher octane will not burn properly.

I'll concede this; your original statement was that "Lower octane runs noticeably better in our bikes at extreme altitudes". Due to the different blends and additives used in different grades that may in fact hold true depending on where you buy your fuel. It's just not the higher octane rating itself that causes the poor performance.

[Hoser]

Octane rating around Kansas are regular 87, E10 midgrade 89, premium 91, E10 premium 93. The last one is pretty scarce.  After a week at or above the tree line, I found the regular 85 in colorado ran better in my bike than the E10 at 89 I arrived with from Kansas.  Yes, it was noticeable.   Yes, they have REAL mountains, with roads on them, in Colorado. Come on out, it's cool. Especially above the tree line. Like 85 in Denver at 5200 feet and 40 degrees fifty miles west at the top of Loveland Pass at more than twice that.     Hoser   

[Ricky-D]

I feel that non-ethanol gasoline will always run better than ethanol enriched gasoline regardless of where you are riding.

***

[Fudd]

I feel that non-ethanol gasoline will always run better than ethanol enriched gasoline regardless of where you are riding.

***

Amen brother

[Hoser]

I know you guys won't believe it, but I use both in Kansas, and there is no noticeable difference that I can detect, in performance or mileage.  As I said earlier, I put in the lowest price on the pump.  In Colorado that was usually  85 octane.  Do your thing, I'll do mine.  Hoser

[Kylenav]

Loveland pass is just outside Denver off I-70 right Hoser?  I took a side road instead of going through the tunnel and I didn't take a picture from up there so of course I can't remember now.

To everyone else... As i said earlier I don't really care what everyone else runs but to tell someone they're definitely wrong and they have no proof is ignorant at best.  I was just there 2 weeks ago, tried all 3 grades since I was skeptical of the Valk making 10K feet plus without and side effects and KNOW MINE liked the 85 the best.  Refer again to picture above to prove I have real life experience...    Then you can tell us how wrong and dumb we are for not running premium.

[Hoser]

That is correct, Kyle, it's the road that all the hazmat haulers take cause they won't allow them in the tunnel.  Hoser

[The Anvil]

Loveland pass is just outside Denver off I-70 right Hoser?  I took a side road instead of going through the tunnel and I didn't take a picture from up there so of course I can't remember now.

To everyone else... As i said earlier I don't really care what everyone else runs but to tell someone they're definitely wrong and they have no proof is ignorant at best.  I was just there 2 weeks ago, tried all 3 grades since I was skeptical of the Valk making 10K feet plus without and side effects and KNOW MINE liked the 85 the best.  Refer again to picture above to prove I have real life experience...    Then you can tell us how wrong and dumb we are for not running premium.

I never said anyone was dumb.

But many years of chasing nonexistent symptoms of problems that don't exist because pilots "insist" they're there has taught me that people get things in their heads that are phantoms. So I'm naturally skeptical.

Besides which, my point stands. Additives may be causing the premium fuel performance to suffer, but it's not the octane rating itself. It's just NOT. That's not how it works.

[Quicksilver]

Chatting with an operator at the Shell terminal where I was unloading denatured ethanol this week, he told me that the regular gas comes through the pipeline as 85 octane. They blend in 10% ethanol and that brings the octane to 87. Apparently premium is a different product through the pipeline and is not blended at the terminal.

[RP#62]

I never said anyone was dumb.

But many years of chasing nonexistent symptoms of problems that don't exist because pilots "insist" they're there has taught me that people get things in their heads that are phantoms. So I'm naturally skeptical.

Besides which, my point stands. Additives may be causing the premium fuel performance to suffer, but it's not the octane rating itself. It's just NOT. That's not how it works.

Not to hijack the thread (he said as he hijacked the thread), but back in the day I led a crew on a road trip to retrieve a broke DC-3.  It had landed with one engine shut down.  Total single engine time was about 15 minutes.  Anyway, we got to the airplane and went over to the feathered engine and started troubleshooting.  It usually didn't take long - typically a cylinder fails and broadcasts itself all over the motor.  In this case we couldn't find anything obviously wrong.  A thumb compression check showed all cylinders had compression.  There were no oil leaks (well, no more than normal).  I pulled the strainer and it was clean.  Finally, I un-feathered and ran the engine and it ran fine and made power.  So we went over and looked at the engine that they had flown in on, and it was lunched.  There were metal flakes all over the front of it.  There was so much metal in the strainer we couldn't get it out.  I called back to Ops and reported what I found.  The Ops VP contacted the captain that had flown it in and when he was told what we found, he accused us of swapping the left and right engines just to make him look bad!  I still get mad when I think about that one.

-RP

[The Anvil]

I never said anyone was dumb.

But many years of chasing nonexistent symptoms of problems that don't exist because pilots "insist" they're there has taught me that people get things in their heads that are phantoms. So I'm naturally skeptical.

Besides which, my point stands. Additives may be causing the premium fuel performance to suffer, but it's not the octane rating itself. It's just NOT. That's not how it works.

Not to hijack the thread (he said as he hijacked the thread), but back in the day I led a crew on a road trip to retrieve a broke DC-3.  It had landed with one engine shut down.  Total single engine time was about 15 minutes.  Anyway, we got to the airplane and went over to the feathered engine and started troubleshooting.  It usually didn't take long - typically a cylinder fails and broadcasts itself all over the motor.  In this case we couldn't find anything obviously wrong.  A thumb compression check showed all cylinders had compression.  There were no oil leaks (well, no more than normal).  I pulled the strainer and it was clean.  Finally, I un-feathered and ran the engine and it ran fine and made power.  So we went over and looked at the engine that they had flown in on, and it was lunched.  There were metal flakes all over the front of it.  There was so much metal in the strainer we couldn't get it out.  I called back to Ops and reported what I found.  The Ops VP contacted the captain that had flown it in and when he was told what we found, he accused us of swapping the left and right engines just to make him look bad!  I still get mad when I think about that one.

-RP

That's a good one!

We had a pilot that insisted there was a problem with the rudder trim on the G450 he was flying. We checked the rigging, AP, servos, software, all of it. No problem. Pilot flew again, cam  back a month later insisting that it was still doing it. Went through the same checks AND had a Gulfstream test pilot come out and fly it (at Gulfstream's expense since it was still under warranty) to see if it would duplicate in flight. Nothing.

The bird comes back a third time with the same issue. This time while checking the rudder pedals the tech noticed that the paint on the right pedal was curiously worn away on the lower right while the rest of the pedal looked fairly unscuffed. The pedestal also had scuffs all over it right next to the pedal. Through some investigation we found out that the pilot was applying an ever so slight amount of right rudder during flight. He was a tall fella, about 6'6" and he was unwittingly resting his right foot on the pedal. We never really got him to admit it, but he stopped complaining about it after we told him what was going on.

Then there was the guy who brought in a twisted Astra... hoo boy was the insurance company pissed about that one.

[Cruzen]

on average premium is $.10 more per gallon. When I fill up it takes 4 gallon. $.40 more. Its worth it.

I believe it's more like .30  more per gallon between regular and premium, at least here in Arizona.  I run the 89 and that is between .13 and .15 per gallon more than the regular unleaded.

[Ricky-D]

Just want to add that at fill up yesterday, the premium (93 octane) non-ethanol was $3.50 a gallon.

Very nice!

***

[YoungPUP]

Ok I saw this posted in a followup post to this one by arty so I'll ask it here. Why do some of our bikes seem to prefer premium and others don't seem to care. I know that mods have a bit to do with this, but it seems that there are some stockers that are picky as well. 

[Ricky-D]

Yep, that's a pretty knotty question actually since it seems personalities work their way into a lot of responses.

I agree, with you that what you post seems true.

When I run ethanol enriched gasoline I experience a lot more popping, though it is very light, I don't run regular cause I've a 6 degree trigger wheel in my motor, but I am sure on regular it would pop considerable more.

I gutted my stock exhaust cans severely and have a sound that I like very much. No drone whatsoever. I think the gut job is responsible for a lot of the popping.

A synchronization helped considerably with the popping, enough to a point where although it is still present, the popping is so slight that it fails to make me want to do any more about it.

Finally, I have many times run 110 octane in my v-twin and the most noticeable improvement was how it started. It really made a positive difference.  The 110 didn't make any noticeable difference in my Valkyrie however.  Go figure!

***

[YoungPUP]

I've noticed that with 87, i get a lot of popping and stumbling on decel and the feel of slow throttle response/(hesitation?). 89 less popping and stumbling throttle seems better. 93 all happy, also seems to warm her blood a bit making for easier cold starts. Got a tankful of 97 down in indy (smelled  ALOT like race fuel) and had backfiring problems on the highway ride back.  ( Insert smily scratching his head....)

[Cruzen]

I think it has something to do with the rider.  Some riders are always short shifting and seldom get above 4K rpm.  At those RPM ranges I am not sure that it matters what you burn.  Others use the entire RPM range where you can make the most of the faster burn characteristics of 91-93 octane.  Personally I burn the 89 octane in the Valk and most of my shifting is around 4-5K unless it is in town.  I have ridden with a couple of Wing riders who were in 4th gear while I was still in second.

I spend a lot of time in the 6-9K rpm range against a 10K rev limit on my Magna and it definitely makes a difference what fuel I burn in that bike.

[rayjay]

I'm new to Valkyrie's, having recently purchased a 2000 Interstate with 19.5K miles, but at 62 I am far from new to engines. I've raced and built cars and motorcycles, and even built some engines for boats. What I have learned to do is to run any engine on the lowest octane fuel it will run on without pinging, knocking, or showing signs of pre-ignition.  Given equal compression, cylinder pressure, f/a ration, ignition and cam timing, air pressure and temperature, fuel additives, and ignition, lower octane fuel will burn faster. If there is pinging, knocking, or pre-ignition then you have to relieve whatever is causing the pre-ignition or raise the octane of the fuel. This is not open to discussion, BUT what is open to discussion is what is the lowest octane fuel to safely run the engine on and/or how to relieve the problem of pre-ignition. What I have also learned over these years, gleaned from friends who are professional engine builders and from listening to experts in this area, is that raising the octane level of a fuel can be a simple fix to knocking and pinging, and can provide a cover up for pre-ignition problems.

For those who still do not believe that the lower the octane of a fuel the faster it burns, should learn from HONDA. When HONDA first brought the CB750 four cylinder to Daytona in the early 70's they were having problems balancing between grunt out of the turns on the infield and top speed on the oval. Remember in those days there was no chicane at the end of the back straight and you entered the oval portion of the track much earlier in NASCAR turns one and two. As you spent so much time going flat out top speed was of prime importance, and going down the back straight they were just not able to turn the revs necessary for a high top speed. So they lowered the compression ratio and adjusted cam timing so they could run a lower octane fuel which burned faster and allowed higher revs down the back straight. Hence HONDA's win with Dick Mann in 1970.

I have worked on engines that have run fuels from regular to high test gas, avgas, alcohol, and racing fuels, and what engine modifications and set-ups work best with that "fuel". By racing fuels I do not mean just running down to the specialty gas provider and buying CAM 2, but racing fuels used for GP bikes and formula cars.

For the record I am still experimenting with what grade fuel to run in my "stock" Interstate to find the lowest one for operating costs vs. the best one for performance. I have not played with the trigger wheel or an electronically adjusted timing map, but will probably be doing so in the future. I say "stock", but it has a COBRA 6 into 6 exhaust and carbs that have been re-jetted on a dyno to work with the exhaust.

To answer the thread on pilots who insist a plane. or helicopter, is not trimmed correctly I add something I saw while working at Sikorsky. Sikorsky's trim pedals are individually adjustable so that each bird can be perfectly adjusted for the feet and the feeling of the pilot. Every pilot seemed to have their own preference for what is neutral trim.

rayjay

[John U.]

I have an I/S and a Standard running an I/S Ignition Control Module. I've done the ECT mod including the potentiometer (so I can reduce the advance to about 5 degrees) on both. I've found that mid-grade is the lowest octane I can use to avoid pinging. The additonal advance gains me some addition zoom or 2 to 3 mpg; more than pays for the added 10 cents a gallon.
The advantage of the ETC mod compared to a trigger wheel is that the advance tapers off to 0 additional at 3500rpm IIRC so top end isn't reduced.

[dubsider]

I am far from an expert.  I have an '01 Standard with an I/S ICM and a 4 degree trigger wheel. I run E0 gas most of the time and my preferred station has 87, 89, and 91.  When I first got the mod I ran 87 and all seemed fine except when I would get on it from 3K in 5th there was a noticeable crackling sound.. so I went to 89 and the cracking sound rarely happens with a hard jump.. It completely goes away if I downshift to 4th .. my normal riding style is to shift between 2.5 and 3K RPM.  I have not tried 91 octane.  I don't notice a popping ever on decel .. but I make sure my exhaust pipes are properly tightened which could be an issue for some.  89 E0 seems to make her happy.  Starting is never a problem.. never use the choke.  The mod as most have reported gives me 2-4 more miles per gallon .. 34-35 MPG which I am pretty happy with for this bike.

[Davet261]

Is there a right and wrong answer here? I don't think so.  I run both 87 and 94, on 87 it runs fine, on 94 it runs fine, big difference for me is the gas mileage, on 87 I average 28 mph and on 94 I average 32.  Sunoco Ultra 94 in my motorcycle is a bit more responisve than 87.  I hear of people getting 40 mpg and I dont have a clue how they do it............

[rayjay]

I have an I/S and a Standard running an I/S Ignition Control Module. I've done the ECT mod including the potentiometer (so I can reduce the advance to about 5 degrees) on both. I've found that mid-grade is the lowest octane I can use to avoid pinging. The additional advance gains me some addition zoom or 2 to 3 mpg; more than pays for the added 10 cents a gallon.
The advantage of the ETC mod compared to a trigger wheel is that the advance tapers off to 0 additional at 3500rpm IIRC so top end isn't reduced.

I searched for information on the "ect mod" and couldn't find anything. Would you give us where information on this mod is or provide some more information on the mod. THANKS!

rayjay

[Willow]

I searched for information on the "ect mod" and couldn't find anything. Would you give us where information on this mod is or provide some more information on the mod. THANKS!

ECT Mod in ShopTalk

[fudgie]

I searched for information on the "ect mod" and couldn't find anything. Would you give us where information on this mod is or provide some more information on the mod. THANKS!

ECT Mod in ShopTalk

Ok, gotta know. How do you type that out -ECT Mod in ShopTalk- and provide the link 'under it'? I see folks do that but dont know how its done. 

[Willow]

Ok, gotta know. How do you type that out -ECT Mod in ShopTalk- and provide the link 'under it'? I see folks do that but dont know how its done. 

When you use the quote function you can actually see the code from the post you're quoting.

Basically with the bracketed url command you code url= followed by the url.  The you place a close bracket and the text you wish to describe the link.

Click on quote again or modify on your post and you'll see what I mean.

[rayjay]

Thank you for the URL for the ECT Mod!!

Now I remember seeing this done on new cars, a favorite of the 5.0 Mustang crowd. This will be part of my winter projects for my I/S!! Thank you for all the info! This Group is a GREAT source of knowledge!!

rayjay