You're tax dollars at work. Not valk related.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Unbelievable. Looks like our tax money was used to buy arms for the Mexican drug cartels. Some of these firearms have killed American citizens and LEO's. I think at least one was traced to the killing of a Mexican government official. Why did the administration's people do this? So they could claim we needed more gun control to prevent our firearms from going to Mexico. I guess they didn't expect a few honest cops in the BATF to tell the senate and the media the truth. Compared to this the Bill and Monica thing and even Nixon's dishonesty were a hill of beans.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/26/us-government-bought-and-sold-weapons-during-fast-and-furious-documents-show/

[Psychotic Bovine]

Funny, a dude at work and I were just discussing this yesterday.  Talk about total denial on his part, says that operation Fast and Furious (aka operation gunrunner) was started and approved under Bush's watch.  I read the congressional report on it, the timeline clearly shows Fall of 2009, but he said that isn't correct. 
My opinion is that allowing these guns to walk was bad enough, but paying $1.25 million to purchase them is about as bad as it gets.  And you know, some people are gonna say "well, Bush and Reagan did such and such".  This isn't about them, this is about the current administration and the chickens are certainly coming home to roost.

[Chrisj CMA]

This should be jail time for Holder and Impeachment for Obama but you know, noone knew anything so nothing will happen

[G-Man]

Unbelievable. Looks like our tax money was used to buy arms for the Mexican drug cartels. Some of these firearms have killed American citizens and LEO's. I think at least one was traced to the killing of a Mexican government official. Why did the administration's people do this? So they could claim we needed more gun control to prevent our firearms from going to Mexico. I guess they didn't expect a few honest cops in the BATF to tell the senate and the media the truth. Compared to this the Bill and Monica thing and even Nixon's dishonesty were a hill of beans.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/26/us-government-bought-and-sold-weapons-during-fast-and-furious-documents-show/

I've wondered why this didn't get more media attention. 

[Jess from VA]

I've wondered why this didn't get more media attention. 


Because it casts a(nother) serious doubt about the intelligence and integrity of the Zero/Holder administration...... mainstream media's poster children.

[DarkMeister]

In my case, that is correct! 
(But, the salary did buy me a Valk)

[Bob E.]

They definitely screwed up on this operation when they lost track of the guns.  No excuse for that.  I can't believe they didn't have some sort of tracking device on the weapons and outright failed to watch the guns or nab the bad guys.  I'd really like to know what was going on to lead Agent Voth to the decisions he made.

But the characterization by the OP and the article headline that the gov't bought the guns for the Mexican cartels is a little disingenous.  The agents oversaw the sale of 2000 guns, and directly bought/sold 6 guns (according to the article) for an undisclosed amount and sold them to the gangs for a total of $1.25M (including the 2000 guns not bought/sold by the gov't).  Presumably, the money used to purchase them in the first place was returned after the sale.  I don't really have too much problem with this part because police work costs money.  That's like saying the state is using tax-payer money to pay a guy to just sit in his car doing nothing alongside the highway.  Is this really that different from undercover cops who buy and sell illegal drugs to catch drug dealers?  I don't think so.  Unfortunately though, in this case, they failed to catch the dealers.

[Serk]

They definitely screwed up on this operation when they lost track of the guns.  No excuse for that.  I can't believe they didn't have some sort of tracking device on the weapons and outright failed to watch the guns or nab the bad guys.  I'd really like to know what was going on to lead Agent Voth to the decisions he made.

But the characterization by the OP and the article headline that the gov't bought the guns for the Mexican cartels is a little disingenous.  The agents oversaw the sale of 2000 guns, and directly bought/sold 6 guns (according to the article) for an undisclosed amount and sold them to the gangs for a total of $1.25M (including the 2000 guns not bought/sold by the gov't).  Presumably, the money used to purchase them in the first place was returned after the sale.  I don't really have too much problem with this part because police work costs money.  That's like saying the state is using tax-payer money to pay a guy to just sit in his car doing nothing alongside the highway.  Is this really that different from undercover cops who buy and sell illegal drugs to catch drug dealers?  I don't think so.  Unfortunately though, in this case, they failed to catch the dealers.

IMHO Occam's Razor applied to this situation would lead one to believe that this operation never had any intention of catching anyone. It's sole purpose was to try to get American sourced guns into the hands of Mexican criminals so that those who would use such things to their advantage could jump up and down and say "See! We need to ban scary guns in the US to stop them from being used by Mexican criminals!"

[Mongo]

20,000 missiles have disappeared in Libya from unguarded warehouses.  The missing weapons are an estimated 20,000 Russian-made portable heat-seeking missiles.

We have know the weapons were unguarded for 6 months  

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44685978/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

[Jess from VA]

That's OK..... the BATFE chief and two others were fired..... er, actually given a lateral GS/SES govt job move to another position.  So he wasn't fired..... or anything really (maybe demoted).

Rhetorical question:   Do you know how many years (or life sentences) John Q Citizen would get, if he was caught and convicted of running a fast and furious-style/size operation for the cartels directly, with hundreds (up to 2K) of firearms, and multiple provable related homicides (200)?  (See felony murder, see RICO Act)

I don't either, but I bet it would be a bit worse than a lateral job transfer.

With Eric Holder sworn on the stand, here is my question.

Excluding the theory that fast and furious was a conspiracy by certain high officials of the US Govt to violate multiple federal/State laws to rally support for tighter gun laws in the US, what possible, defensible, reasonable, intelligent reason could there be for actively working to ensure that hundreds/thousands of semi and full auto weapons were purchased in the US and allowed to be smuggled out of the US to Mexico, and directly to the cartels for the murder of any who oppose the cartels?

And remember, dirt head, you are under oath, if it means anything to you.

[The Anvil]

This should be jail time for Holder and Impeachment for Obama but you know, noone knew anything so nothing will happen

It's called "plausible deniability". You may have heard the term before.

[Bob E.]

IMHO Occam's Razor applied to this situation would lead one to believe that this operation never had any intention of catching anyone. It's sole purpose was to try to get American sourced guns into the hands of Mexican criminals so that those who would use such things to their advantage could jump up and down and say "See! We need to ban scary guns in the US to stop them from being used by Mexican criminals!"

Call me naive, but I guess I'm just not into those sorts of conspiracy theories.  Don't get me wrong...I'm not defending the operation.  They definitely f'ed up big.  But personally knowing some folks involved in law enforcement, I find it hard to believe that they would do anything like this without intending to catch bad guys. Which bad guys they were trying to catch, whether it was the gun runners or ultimately the drug cartels...I don't know.  But I'm sure they were trying to catch someone.  I don't know why Voth made the decision to not monitor the stash house and then not to send reinforcements when Dodson called about the transfer.  I'd like to know that information.  Like I said, he f'ed up big there.

As to Jess's point, I agree about John Q. Citizen.  But law enforcement is not John Q. Citizen.  Cops buy and sell drugs and stolen goods, proposition and pose as prostitutes, etc. all the time in the name of catching bad guys.  Are they supposed to throw cops in jail for prostitution when they are just working?

[Serk]

Bob - I'm generally not much into conspiracy theories either. And I don't doubt that the actual law enforcement would have wanted to catch some bad guys, but the orders from above are what started all this, and those are political positions, not law enforcement positions.

The very fact that no Mexican authorities were brought in, meaning once the guns crossed the border there was no way to track them at ALL leads me to believe the goals of this operation were political, and not law enforcement related...

[Jess from VA]

Cops buy and sell drugs and stolen goods, proposition and pose as prostitutes, etc. all the time in the name of catching bad guys.

What's the last sting operation you read about where 200 people were killed as a direct result of the sting operation?  Each of those stings referred to had a direct and defensible goal of apprehending criminals.  There was no attempt and no intent to apprehend criminals in fast and furious.  Absent a (any) legitimate purpose (asked in my Holder question), the entire operation was in violation of a myriad of State and Federal laws.

And I don't doubt that the actual law enforcement would have wanted to catch some bad guys, but the orders from above are what started all this, and those are political positions, not law enforcement positions.

Operators on the ground (LE) wanted to move to arrests multiple times, and were called off every time.  This is obviously why operators (LE) finally spilled the beans.  This certainly originated at the political level, but clearly had some active and voluntary LE supervisory support. 

[The Anvil]

Bob - I'm generally not much into conspiracy theories either. And I don't doubt that the actual law enforcement would have wanted to catch some bad guys, but the orders from above are what started all this, and those are political positions, not law enforcement positions.

The very fact that no Mexican authorities were brought in, meaning once the guns crossed the border there was no way to track them at ALL leads me to believe the goals of this operation were political, and not law enforcement related...

Your theory might be more sound if we were talking about Canada, but we're not. The "authorities" in Mexico are notoriously corrupt, even among other corrupt law enforcement groups. In many parts of Mexico they're wholly owned subsidiaries of the cartels. I wouldn't let them in on anything I was doing either.

[The Anvil]

Cops buy and sell drugs and stolen goods, proposition and pose as prostitutes, etc. all the time in the name of catching bad guys.

What's the last sting operation you read about where 200 people were killed as a direct result of the sting operation?  Each of those stings referred to had a direct and defensible goal of apprehending criminals.  There was no attempt and no intent to apprehend criminals in fast and furious.  Absent a (any) legitimate purpose (asked in my Holder question), the entire operation was in violation of a myriad of State and Federal laws.

And I don't doubt that the actual law enforcement would have wanted to catch some bad guys, but the orders from above are what started all this, and those are political positions, not law enforcement positions.

Operators on the ground (LE) wanted to move to arrests multiple times, and were called off every time.  This is obviously why operators (LE) finally spilled the beans.  This certainly originated at the political level, but clearly had some active and voluntary LE supervisory support. 

I'm not defending this operation, I think it was way out of the bounds of what any law enforcement agency should be doing, but I find these tears for a bunch of dead Mexicans to be somewhat crocodile flavored. Over the summer I heard a conservative radio host crying about what a horrible thing this administration did to Mexico by allowing all of the weapons to enter the country. This is the same guy who two years earlier was calling for the shooting of Mexicans trying to cross the border and referred to them as ""the world's lowest of primitives".

[Bob E.]

There was no attempt and no intent to apprehend criminals in fast and furious.  Absent a (any) legitimate purpose (asked in my Holder question), the entire operation was in violation of a myriad of State and Federal laws.

I guess this is where we disagree a bit.  I have a hard time believing there was no intent but I do believe that when the time came, they failed at their attempt.

Operators on the ground (LE) wanted to move to arrests multiple times, and were called off every time.  This is obviously why operators (LE) finally spilled the beans.  This certainly originated at the political level, but clearly had some active and voluntary LE supervisory support. 

According to the article posted, Agent Voth (a supervisor, and not necessarily a political figure) is the one who failed in directing his agents to monitor the stash house and ultimately move in for the arrests.  You might be right that it was called off at a higher level for political reasons  (conspiracy theory) and Voth was just following his orders.  Or it could be that Voth and others were completely inept and failed in their duties.  Who does Voth report to?

[Cruzen]

Here in Arizona we have known about this for a while as some of the guns were sold through dealers here in AZ.  Such stories have been covered by our news people for some time.

I am in no way a political person but I look at this as a business arrangement.  My personal feeling is that political officials should be held accountable for their dumb mistakes in the same manner that your company holds you accountable for bad decisions.  Make a serious mistake/bad decision, loose your job or maybe in this case I think Obama should take Jesse Jackson for an unescourted ( no security ) trip down there to ask the cartels for the guns back.  That would thin the herd a bit. 

[musclehead]

Cops buy and sell drugs and stolen goods, proposition and pose as prostitutes, etc. all the time in the name of catching bad guys.

What's the last sting operation you read about where 200 people were killed as a direct result of the sting operation?  Each of those stings referred to had a direct and defensible goal of apprehending criminals.  There was no attempt and no intent to apprehend criminals in fast and furious.  Absent a (any) legitimate purpose (asked in my Holder question), the entire operation was in violation of a myriad of State and Federal laws.

And I don't doubt that the actual law enforcement would have wanted to catch some bad guys, but the orders from above are what started all this, and those are political positions, not law enforcement positions.

Operators on the ground (LE) wanted to move to arrests multiple times, and were called off every time.  This is obviously why operators (LE) finally spilled the beans.  This certainly originated at the political level, but clearly had some active and voluntary LE supervisory support. 

I'm not defending this operation, I think it was way out of the bounds of what any law enforcement agency should be doing, but I find these tears for a bunch of dead Mexicans to be somewhat crocodile flavored. Over the summer I heard a conservative radio host crying about what a horrible thing this administration did to Mexico by allowing all of the weapons to enter the country. This is the same guy who two years earlier was calling for the shooting of Mexicans trying to cross the border and referred to them as ""the world's lowest of primitives".

and who was this unnamed radio host?

go ahead drop a name, not that I don't believe you but I never heard that.

[Psychotic Bovine]

The talk show host Jay Severin. I never heard of him, but a quick google search turned him up.
from wikipedia:
Jay Severin, (born James Thompson Severino III), is an American political talk radio personality. Severin has signed a multi-year contract with Boston's WXKS-AM Talk 1200 as an on-air personality. He had been heard on WTKK-FM (96.9) for a decade, and briefly in syndication beyond Boston.

I hadn't heard of him, either.

But that is just one person, I certainly don't subscribe to that philosophy.  My opinion is that the main problem with Mexico is the government, not the citizens.

[musclehead]

20,000 missiles have disappeared in Libya from unguarded warehouses.  The missing weapons are an estimated 20,000 Russian-made portable heat-seeking missiles.

We have know the weapons were unguarded for 6 months  

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44685978/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

what possible problem could they pose? you can't very well get them on an airpla.......

never mind 

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

IMHO Occam's Razor applied to this situation would lead one to believe that this operation never had any intention of catching anyone. It's sole purpose was to try to get American sourced guns into the hands of Mexican criminals so that those who would use such things to their advantage could jump up and down and say "See! We need to ban scary guns in the US to stop them from being used by Mexican criminals!"


I don't think there is any doubt this is exactly the reason they lost track of the guns.

They wanted to lose track of them.

I think at about the same time this was going on Obama had sent the female clinton to Mexico to apologize for our 2'nd amendment rights causing them so much trouble and promoting a new semi-auto ban. They needed guns traceable to America to be found at crime scenes during their bid for a new semi-auto ban. In essence, they helped kill an American LEO to promote their gun control scheme.

And, it might have been successful if not for the honesty of those being forced against their better judgement to take part in it. Those orchestrating this should go to prison forever. It they had been successful it would have done more harm to our freedom than anything terrorists have done.

[musclehead]

The talk show host Jay Severin. I never heard of him, but a quick google search turned him up.
from wikipedia:
Jay Severin, (born James Thompson Severino III), is an American political talk radio personality. Severin has signed a multi-year contract with Boston's WXKS-AM Talk 1200 as an on-air personality. He had been heard on WTKK-FM (96.9) for a decade, and briefly in syndication beyond Boston.

I hadn't heard of him, either.

But that is just one person, I certainly don't subscribe to that philosophy.  My opinion is that the main problem with Mexico is the government, not the citizens.

my vote was going to Alex Jones, who is a complete nutter and in my view about as conservative as Obama. thanks for the info, never heard of him either. hey Mr. Anvil, why dont  you listen to a real conservative like Limbaugh?

[G-Man]

Because he can't prove Limbaugh wrong!  The libs make fun of him and ridicule him for what he says, but can never prove him wrong.

[The Anvil]

Because he can't prove Limbaugh wrong!  The libs make fun of him and ridicule him for what he says, but can never prove him wrong.

Uh, yes you can. Like when he's telling people Michael J. Fox is exaggerating his symptoms. Which might be funny if you've never known someone with Parkinson's.

You can also prove him a doctor-shopping pill-popper who's on his way to a fourth failed marriage. He's an opiate junkie and considering his history of verbal diatribes against drug abusers THAT is funny. 

But I actually like Rush. I disagree with him about as much as I agree but he is a supremely talented broadcaster and as shown in his Family Guy appearances he actually has a sense of humor about himself, something other stuck-pig "conservatives" like Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity lack. But he's also a contributor to the rampant ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome) that's gripped the whackadoo right in this country.

[G-Man]

Just heard on the radio that the illustrious Eric Holder has been coaching agents in their response to questions regarding this fiasco and that deaths related to the lost guns is hundreds more (approaching 1,000) than previously reported.  This is insane!