Titanic Struggle

[Moonshot_1]

MANCHESTER, N.H. (AP) — President Barack Obama's chief political adviser on Tuesday conceded that a dark cloud looms over the American economy and Obama's political future, describing the president's road to a second term in the White House as "a titanic struggle."

"We have the wind in our face because the American people have the wind in their faces," David Axelrod told an audience of New Hampshire politicians and business leaders. "So this is going to be a titanic struggle. But I firmly believe we're on the right side of the struggle."



If I recall, the Titantic didn't fare so well. While I understand the reference was to that of the Titans, the Titanic is the modern example of an epic fail.

If I was someone's chief political advisor, maybe I'd use the phrase "Herculean Struggle" or "Formidable Struggle"or "Epic Struggle" or an "Extraordinary difficult struggle"

But "Titanic"? I realize Obama is heading for the Epic Fail, but for that to come from his own political advisor? That's just funnier than all get out. Way to go Axelrod.

Just found this to be really amusing

[Fudd]

Look on the bright side.

The good captain can ignore iceburg warnings and stay full speed ahead--and--

The band will keep playing all the the way 'till the ship sinks.

[Fritz The Cat]

And sink it will if the American people don't wake up.

[old2soon]

And sink it will if the American people don't wake up.

   What leads you to beleive we havn't already sunk??? I checked-our boat ain't a submarine. This be a case of-cheer up things could be worse. I cheered up and sure enough-things got way worse. RIDE SAFE.

[The Anvil]

[Fudd]

[czuch]

I'm already wearin a dress and sittin in the lifeboat.

[The Anvil]

I'm already wearin a dress and sittin in the lifeboat.

Well I understand the "sitting in a lifeboat" is a recent development anyway. 

[BigAl]

Wearin a dress and sittin in a life boat.

That is funny.

Ombaminator still has a few good tricks left.

Oh wait, maybe not.

Leonardo Decaprio is heading to the White House Tomorrow.

Reckon that means something?

[musclehead]

titanic? what happened to the handbasket?

[x]

$50 bet to anyone in this thread... Obama will win... 1 to 1 odds.  Any interest?  If yes, will set up way to control betting pool.

[Chrisj CMA]

$50 bet to anyone in this thread... Obama will win... 1 to 1 odds.  Any interest?  If yes, will set up way to control betting pool.

We all lose with this guy.  For Americas sake, he better not be allowed to have the highest vote count again

[The Anvil]

$50 bet to anyone in this thread... Obama will win... 1 to 1 odds.  Any interest?  If yes, will set up way to control betting pool.

I wouldn't take that bet. I may not like Obama but this crop of clowns that's opposing him is laughable.

[Fudd]

$50 bet to anyone in this thread... Obama will win... 1 to 1 odds.  Any interest?  If yes, will set up way to control betting pool.

Whenever it reaches the point where 51% of the voters receive gov't handouts, it'll be a sure thing.

[The Anvil]

$50 bet to anyone in this thread... Obama will win... 1 to 1 odds.  Any interest?  If yes, will set up way to control betting pool.

Whenever it reaches the point where 51% of the voters receive gov't handouts, it'll be a sure thing.

Well fortunately corporations and Israelis can't vote, so...

[DarkMeister]

But...but... I thought corporations were deemed to be people? They should be able to vote...?

[Fudd]

But...but... I thought corporations were deemed to be people? They should be able to vote...?

Corporations don't have to vote, they can just buy their politicians.

[The Anvil]

But...but... I thought corporations were deemed to be people? They should be able to vote...?

Corporations don't have to vote, they can just buy their politicians.

AND they get welfare. Ironnic, innit?

[bigvalkriefan]

$50 bet to anyone in this thread... Obama will win... 1 to 1 odds.  Any interest?  If yes, will set up way to control betting pool.

167 million people only pay 17% of the taxes and of those 167 million, 70 million pay nothing and together they account for 84% of the voters.
Approx 32 million Americans pay 83% of all income taxes collected and they account for only 16% of the voters.
I'd say it's a safe bet he gets re elected.

[Pete]

$50 bet to anyone in this thread... Obama will win... 1 to 1 odds.  Any interest?  If yes, will set up way to control betting pool.

167 million people only pay 17% of the taxes and of those 167 million, 70 million pay nothing and together they account for 84% of the voters.
Approx 32 million Americans pay 83% of all income taxes collected and they account for only 16% of the voters.
I'd say it's a safe bet he gets re elected.

It is way to early to even GUESS at a winner(loser).

I firmly believe that the Repubs can nominate someone that can loose even to Oboob.
And conversely Oboob is fully capable of shooting his foot off - knee, hip, ass and all.

A new test for insanity --  betting either way on the 2012 election. I am outta here!

[The Anvil]

$50 bet to anyone in this thread... Obama will win... 1 to 1 odds.  Any interest?  If yes, will set up way to control betting pool.

167 million people only pay 17% of the taxes and of those 167 million, 70 million pay nothing and together they account for 84% of the voters.
Approx 32 million Americans pay 83% of all income taxes collected and they account for only 16% of the voters.
I'd say it's a safe bet he gets re elected.

It is way to early to even GUESS at a winner(loser).

I firmly believe that the Repubs can nominate someone that can loose even to Oboob.
And conversely Oboob is fully capable of shooting his foot off - knee, hip, ass and all.

A new test for insanity --  betting either way on the 2012 election. I am outta here!

What's really funny is that it wasn't very long ago that Bobby Jindal was the heir-apparent for the Republican party. Then he flushed it all away (at least for the next election cycle) in one cringe-inducing rebuttal speech.

[musclehead]

remember polls are crap, just look at where the prez has been campaigning lately. he's preaching to the masses of his base, telling them to take off the fuzzy bunny slippers and get on their marching shoes.

deeds not words, I'm still watching the feint and parry with renewed interest.

[Slyk Willy]

[/quote]
Whenever it reaches the point where 51% of the voters receive gov't handouts, it'll be a sure thing.
[/quote]

yup, When you take from Peter to pay Paul... Paul WILL vote for you.

[razor]

What are you calling corporate welfare?  Specific examples please.

If you're talking about tax breaks for buying equipment, insurance , employees' salaries and other operating costs, then don't bother, cause we got a different definition of welfare.

[The Anvil]

What are you calling corporate welfare?  Specific examples please.

If you're talking about tax breaks for buying equipment, insurance , employees' salaries and other operating costs, then don't bother, cause we got a different definition of welfare.

I'm talking about subsidies for big oil companies and companies like GE. America subsidizes corporations to the tune of many billions of dollars every year. NOT tax credits but SUBSIDIES.

[Serk]

What are you calling corporate welfare?  Specific examples please.

If you're talking about tax breaks for buying equipment, insurance , employees' salaries and other operating costs, then don't bother, cause we got a different definition of welfare.

I'm talking about subsidies for big oil companies and companies like GE. America subsidizes corporations to the tune of many billions of dollars every year. NOT tax credits but SUBSIDIES.

Please list a specific example of a subsidy to the oil companies. I've searched, and even the NYTimes says things like:

But an examination of the American tax code indicates that oil production is among the most heavily subsidized businesses, with tax breaks available at virtually every stage of the exploration and extraction process.

(Source - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html )

That kind of double speak is disingenuous. Tax breaks are NOT subsidies. Subsidies are money being directly given to a company, not the government stealing slightly less of the company's money.

Granted, these following links are from places that have skin in the game, but:

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/05/03/oil-company-subsidies-clarified/

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/opinion-zone/2011/05/about-those-oil-company-subsidies

When President Obama gave a speech on the high price of gas, one of the things he called for was for congress to "take immediate action to eliminate unwarranted tax breaks for the oil and gas industry and use the dollars to invest in clean energy.  "Usually these tax breaks are referred to as "subsidies" by the press and Democrats who point the finger of blame for high gas prices at oil companies.

The truth is, a tax break is not properly a pure subsidy.

Subsidies are funds that governments give to someone to encourage and assist them to take an action. By reducing taxes for an action, that can have the same sort of effect, but it is more properly a tax break.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/opinion-zone/2011/05/about-those-oil-company-subsidies#ixzz1ZRcflBzT

[The Anvil]

What are you calling corporate welfare?  Specific examples please.

If you're talking about tax breaks for buying equipment, insurance , employees' salaries and other operating costs, then don't bother, cause we got a different definition of welfare.

I'm talking about subsidies for big oil companies and companies like GE. America subsidizes corporations to the tune of many billions of dollars every year. NOT tax credits but SUBSIDIES.

Please list a specific example of a subsidy to the oil companies. I've searched, and even the NYTimes says things like:

But an examination of the American tax code indicates that oil production is among the most heavily subsidized businesses, with tax breaks available at virtually every stage of the exploration and extraction process.

(Source - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html )

That kind of double speak is disingenuous. Tax breaks are NOT subsidies. Subsidies are money being directly given to a company, not the government stealing slightly less of the company's money.

Granted, these following links are from places that have skin in the game, but:

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/05/03/oil-company-subsidies-clarified/

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/opinion-zone/2011/05/about-those-oil-company-subsidies

When President Obama gave a speech on the high price of gas, one of the things he called for was for congress to "take immediate action to eliminate unwarranted tax breaks for the oil and gas industry and use the dollars to invest in clean energy.  "Usually these tax breaks are referred to as "subsidies" by the press and Democrats who point the finger of blame for high gas prices at oil companies.

The truth is, a tax break is not properly a pure subsidy.

Subsidies are funds that governments give to someone to encourage and assist them to take an action. By reducing taxes for an action, that can have the same sort of effect, but it is more properly a tax break.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/opinion-zone/2011/05/about-those-oil-company-subsidies#ixzz1ZRcflBzT

Actually "subsidies" are not always in the form of cash. In the case of oil companies subsidies are sometimes in the form of low cost (effectively NO cost) leasing of land tracts for exploratory drilling.

But even at that, who cares? They're making billions and getting unwarranted tax breaks as well. That is effectively a subsidy, even if it's not by the strict definition. You can subsidize THROUGH tax breaks and credits.

Oil companies: "We don't want to pay the tax because we need the money to pay for other stuff."

Gubmint: "Okay, keep what should be ours as a cost of doing business in the USA and enjoying all of the same protections that other citizens do and do with it as you please."

If it would otherwise be in the national coffers and not in the pockets of the oil companies then it IS in effect the same thing. If they're making plenty of money and paying a lower percentage than you and I are it's a form of welfare.



GE got 3.2 billion in government money. Mostly from their wind turbine program. Everybody whines about the money wasted on that solar company but I don't hear a lot of whining about that...

[Serk]

But even at that, who cares?

I do, for one... Lying and calling a legitimiate tax break (Most of which all companies get) a subsidy really gets under my skin. It's dishonest, it's sleazy, and I make it a point to point out dishonesty whereever I see it. As much as you purport to be a champion of just telling the truth, I'd have thought you'd be with me on this one...

[The Anvil]

But even at that, who cares?

I do, for one... Lying and calling a legitimiate tax break (Most of which all companies get) a subsidy really gets under my skin. It's dishonest, it's sleazy, and I make it a point to point out dishonesty whereever I see it. As much as you purport to be a champion of just telling the truth, I'd have thought you'd be with me on this one...

If the tax break is legit then I'm with you. But what makes you think they are? Companies hide and move profits and dollars to take advantage of credits and breaks that they should not be able to claim all the time (to be fair, individuals do as well) but when a company doesn't need the public funds and takes them anyway what would YOU call that? Because I call it welfare.

[Serk]

But even at that, who cares?

I do, for one... Lying and calling a legitimiate tax break (Most of which all companies get) a subsidy really gets under my skin. It's dishonest, it's sleazy, and I make it a point to point out dishonesty whereever I see it. As much as you purport to be a champion of just telling the truth, I'd have thought you'd be with me on this one...

If the tax break is legit then I'm with you. But what makes you think they are? Companies hide and move profits and dollars to take advantage of credits and breaks that they should not be able to claim all the time (to be fair, individuals do as well) but when a company doesn't need the public funds and takes them anyway what would YOU call that? Because I call it welfare.

Welfare != Tax Break

Welfare, or subsidy, the the moving of money from one to the other.

Tax Break is a reduction of the amount the entity has to give the government.

VERY different things.

AND my other issue is why are the big scary oil companies being singled out for these attacks? EVERY corporation does everything they can to avoid paying as much as possible in taxes. It's actually their responsibility to do so (Responsibility to their shareholders to make as much profit as possible.)

So, my issues are, quit confusing welfare/subsidy with tax breaks, they are very different things, and quit singling out oil companies.

IMHO, we need a simpler solution, with NO loophopes. Fairtax would get my vote, or even Herman Cain's 9 9 9 plan, or even a flat tax, but whatever it is, it needs to be fair across the board with no loopholes.

(And yeah, full disclosure, my income comes indirectly from a medium sized oil company. And yeah, workign here has changed my view a LOT. Especially after I made a few trips to Africa and saw the tremendous expenses they have in finding the oil, and getting the oil.)

[The Anvil]

Welfare != Tax Break

Pretty much, yeah.

Welfare, or subsidy, the the moving of money from one to the other.

Tax Break is a reduction of the amount the entity has to give the government.

VERY different things.

The road by which we get to the destination may be different but both lead to the same point. So they're really not different at all.

AND my other issue is why are the big scary oil companies being singled out for these attacks? EVERY corporation does everything they can to avoid paying as much as possible in taxes. It's actually their responsibility to do so (Responsibility to their shareholders to make as much profit as possible.)

Did you miss the part where I mentioned GE? I'm not singling anyone out, but they're a prime offender.

So, my issues are, quit confusing welfare/subsidy with tax breaks, they are very different things, and quit singling out oil companies.

But you're forgetting about the low cost/no cost exploratory drilling leases. Other countries charge millions for these. R&D is considered part of doing business in most industries. Not here though. That's not a direct cash outlay, but it's compensation that's essentially as good as money.

IMHO, we need a simpler solution, with NO loophopes. Fairtax would get my vote, or even Herman Cain's 9 9 9 plan, or even a flat tax, but whatever it is, it needs to be fair across the board with no loopholes.

Agreed.

(And yeah, full disclosure, my income comes indirectly from a medium sized oil company. And yeah, workign here has changed my view a LOT. Especially after I made a few trips to Africa and saw the tremendous expenses they have in finding the oil, and getting the oil.)

Getting ANYTHING out of the ground is expensive. Don't like it? Start investing in alternative energy. The government (AKA; you and I) should not be subsidizing that effort, here or anywhere else.

[Serk]

The government (AKA; you and I) should not be subsidizing that effort, here or anywhere else

Something I can 100% agree with. Government should not be in the business of picking winners or losers.

And yeah, I'll toss GE under the (Renewable energy powered, of course) bus on that one too. I was avoiding that one since GE's been in bed with Obama so much, it'd just come across as more Obama bashing to bash GE at this point, but yeah...

[The Anvil]

The government (AKA; you and I) should not be subsidizing that effort, here or anywhere else

Something I can 100% agree with. Government should not be in the business of picking winners or losers.

And yeah, I'll toss GE under the (Renewable energy powered, of course) bus on that one too. I was avoiding that one since GE's been in bed with Obama so much, it'd just come across as more Obama bashing to bash GE at this point, but yeah...

GE is in bed with everyone though and Obama deserves to get slammed for it. I mean, wasn't that one of the "changes" Obama was supposed to give us? They're as fair game as anyone else.