Waterboarding - Live Demo

[TomT]

THIS IS AMAZING! HOW AND WHY WATERBOARDING WORKS: ALSO SHOWS THE PROFESSIONALISM OF OUR MILITARY.


     

    YOU TELL ME IF YOU THINK THIS IS TORTURE OR JUST SCARING THE CRAP OUT OF YOU!

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1579920046?bctid=20047560001

[HayHauler]

Good video, everyone should watch it. 

Not torture.  IMHO

The towel over your face doesn't let you prepare for the water....and therefore, your nose fills up and you cannot breathe.   No physical harm, unless like he said, you have a heart attack while this is going on due to the severe increased heart rate.

Hay 

[Bigdog]

Great video i had no idea... thanks for posting it...............

[Strong Eagle]

If it's not torture, then:

a)  Why is it listed as torture in the Geneva Convention?
b)  Why did the US execute Japanese after WW II for using it on American troops?
c)  Why did the US roundly condemn its use by other countries such as Cambodia?
d)  Why was waterboarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in the Vietnam War?
d)  Why is nearly every senior American military commander opposed to its use and why did later Republican Bush administration officials overturn the memos authorizing waterboarding?
 

[MP]

When the next attack comes, because we cannot get info thru the CIA, I hope the families of those who oppose getting info from terrorists are the first to visit their maker.

[TomT]

I'm sorry.....No I don't consider this as torture when I think back to 9-11, or to the videos of the terrorist beheading a newsman with a knife. These people are animals.....no they don't even count as animals.
I'm not very good at expressing myself, so I'll quit there. 

[Strong Eagle]

I'm sorry.....No I don't consider this as torture when I think back to 9-11, or to the videos of the terrorist beheading a newsman with a knife. These people are animals.....no they don't even count as animals.
I'm not very good at expressing myself, so I'll quit there. 

So, Tom... I suppose you would not have a problem then if US service men and women are waterboarded?  How about only once?  How about more than 100 times in a month as the CIA did to one person?  Did waterboarding work if you had to do it more than 100 times in a month?

Or, to what degree shall we waterboard... just kind of let them think they are drowning... or pour the water on until they are actually drowning... reaching the point of asphyxiation before you stop... is that torture?

Sorry... it would be torture if it happened to a US service man or woman... and there aint no double standards.
 

[3fan4life]

When I first read Tom's post, I immediately knew that if anyone here rushed to the defense of the terrorists that it would be you.

I mean you have such a great sense of patriotism and duty to the United States of America that you just can't help yourself.

The double standard that you say can't exist most certainly does.

Only it exists as the opposite of what you imply.

When they capture an American soldier do you really think that they just serve them coffee and doughnuts and then give them a ride home?

Waterboarding is "child’s play" compared to the things that American soldiers are put through when they are captured by the enemy.

You quote the rules of the Geneva Convention.  That would be well and good if our enemy played by these rules also.

There has to be some way of getting information from our enemy.  Many American lives depend on it.  The lives of civilians, innocent men women and children as well as the lives of American troops.

So, if this means that someone must "scare" them into talking. SO WHAT!

Do you think that if serving them milk and cookies, tucking them into a cozy bed and singing them lullaby's every night worked that we'd water board them instead?

You say that waterboarding doesn't work, because it has to be done multiple times and even then sometimes the person doesn't talk.

I say that is the "proof" that it doesn't qualify as torture.

What do Jack Hensley, Nicholas Berg, Paul Johnson, and Eugene Armstrong all have in common?

In case you don't know they were beheaded by their terrorist captures.

I'm sure that their families would be elated if they had only been "tortured" by waterboarding.

[PAVALKER]

War is hell, people get hurt and die and the enemy terrorists do not play by a set of ethic rules either.  Beheading is a cruel form of torture for a little while til the person dies. Don't you think they are threatened and fearful of being beheaded?  Unfortunately it is part of the job, and  a U.S. Serviceman has to understand that their lives are being put on the line for the service of our country, and it may result in death, or maybe torture if captured.  When fighting a war, I think killing the enemy before you get killed is one of the unfortunate objectives.  It isn't a Chess game with immaterial pawns, real people are involved.

IF everyone could agree to a set of rules before a game starts, then it might be agreeable to play by those rules.  Did the enemy terrorists agree to abide by the Geneva Convention?  And if one person on either side breaks the rules should the rules be thrown out all together and then, as the saying goes.....all is fair in love and war ??

I'm not an expert on torture, no one here is, but it is interesting to hear others opinions on tortue.  Threating or mistreating a prisoner in any way, shape or form could be considered tortue,  depending on how liberal you might want to be.    There have been jokes regarding connecting a car battery via jumper cables to a terrorists testicles...... and as the jokes says, if it saves just one american soldiers life by gaining important information.... I say Red is Positive and Black is Negative and don't forget to wiggle the clamp to make sure you have a good connection.

[Strong Eagle]

When I first read Tom's post, I immediately knew that if anyone here rushed to the defense of the terrorists that it would be you.

I mean you have such a great sense of patriotism and duty to the United States of America that you just can't help yourself.

The double standard that you say can't exist most certainly does.

Only it exists as the opposite of what you imply.

When they capture an American soldier do you really think that they just serve them coffee and doughnuts and then give them a ride home?

Waterboarding is "child’s play" compared to the things that American soldiers are put through when they are captured by the enemy.

You quote the rules of the Geneva Convention.  That would be well and good if our enemy played by these rules also.

There has to be some way of getting information from our enemy.  Many American lives depend on it.  The lives of civilians, innocent men women and children as well as the lives of American troops.

So, if this means that someone must "scare" them into talking. SO WHAT!

Do you think that if serving them milk and cookies, tucking them into a cozy bed and singing them lullaby's every night worked that we'd water board them instead?

You say that waterboarding doesn't work, because it has to be done multiple times and even then sometimes the person doesn't talk.

I say that is the "proof" that it doesn't qualify as torture.

What do Jack Hensley, Nicholas Berg, Paul Johnson, and Eugene Armstrong all have in common?

In case you don't know they were beheaded by their terrorist captures.

I'm sure that their families would be elated if they had only been "tortured" by waterboarding.

Defense of terrorists?  My, my, you certainly know how to make 'facts' up out of whole cloth.

Nice personal attack on me... I don't actually 'defend' terrorists... possibly you have a reading comprehension problem?

But you totally ignored the question:  Is it torture if American service men and women are waterboarded?

You also miss a major point... are we above those that torture and behead?  Or are we the same as them?  You apparently think it should be tit for tat... they torture, we torture... should be behead as well?

You've got no evidence that torture gives us better information and those in the FBI and the army says it doesn't... so who should we believe... you... or the commanding officers that have troops at risk?

Frankly, I'll take the opinions and estimations of senior military leaders who say we should not do this any day over someone who seems mostly hellbent on revenge.

Cheers.

[Strong Eagle]

PAVALKER, I am sorry to see that you have lost sight of and no longer believe in the American ideal.  We have been above torture for decades... I am not saying it didn't happen... it just wasn't official policy.
 
Americans are better than this... and can still win without resorting to torture.  FACT.

[Chrisj CMA]

Hey Tom (sorry I incorrectly thought SE posted this......not quite used to the new format enough I guess)... I do agree with your point of view 100%

There are two comments I want to make. 

First, Where is the incentive for groups of "combatants" to fight by the Rules of war, if we have to treat them like US citizens with the all the rights I fought for to preserve for my countrymen and others that deserve freedom and justice even while they (terrorists) have no regard for human life themselves?

Second, Terrorists dont care about the Geneva Convention, and they dont deserve to be treated accordingly.  I understand this techique is banned from use under the Convention, but I think once you have a terrorist that would sooner cut off your head with a rusty butter knife and send the video home to your family, well this person should be water boarded if there is any chance to get information that will prevent further terrorism.  I applaud the courage of President GW Bush for getting this done knowing full well the die hard bleeding heart liberals would be after his nuts for it. 

BTW, while on active duty I went through two POW camp simulations.  One was authorized professional training, and one was not, no rules and quite "real"  Im not at liberty to say what happened at either, but I will say this.  The authorized version came close to the level of discomfort portrayed here.  The second (harder one) was many times worse than this video, and this was "training"   So, I will say again, as someone already  said....a little water up the nose, while yes it envokes a panic attack and fear, well its like panzy stuff to what they would do to us.

[PAVALKER]

PAVALKER, I am sorry to see that you have lost sight of and no longer believe in the American ideal.  We have been above torture for decades... I am not saying it didn't happen... it just wasn't official policy.
 
Americans are better than this... and can still win without resorting to torture.  FACT.

Strong Eagle -

 First, you have no idea what the American ideal is as it is all subjective depending on the individuals position.  You have no idea what I believe in or don't believe in, and even what I put in writing here may not actually be what I believe in. 

 Second, And beings you appear to be in Sunny Singapore, not even living in this lovely country, how can you be so vocal on what the "American Ideal" is??  Unless of course you might be serving in an official military capacity under orders overseas????

 Third,  we may have been above torture "officially" but backed it "unofficially".   Yes it has happened .... and probably will continue to happen.

 Finally,  you stated "Americans are better than this... and can still win without resorting to torture.  FACT."   I agree with you on that point, but noticed you did not use the term "I" or "WE" to affiliate yourself as being american.   What's with that?

[ricoman]

If it's not torture, then:

a)  Why is it listed as torture in the Geneva Convention?
b)  Why did the US execute Japanese after WW II for using it on American troops?
c)  Why did the US roundly condemn its use by other countries such as Cambodia?
d)  Why was waterboarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in the Vietnam War?
d)  Why is nearly every senior American military commander opposed to its use and why did later Republican Bush administration officials overturn the memos authorizing waterboarding?
 
I strongly question the veracity of your statements.
Too bad you are not closer to DC- Obama could use you and your misguided opinions-you'd fit right in.

[Duct Tape]

The primary historical argument for banning torture was to prevent our soldiers from being tortured.  That effort failed.  They were tortured time and again (even by members of the Geneva Convention).  We believe in defending our freedom and our national interests.  We believe in aiding others in their efforts for freedom and democracy.  We send our young men (and women) to die in that defense.  So, the idea of torturing someone to get information that could prevent the deaths of our young military (and our citizenry) is purely justifiable in my mind.  So, back to the original question:  is waterboarding torture.  Probably.  Use it...and more severe means.