Rear Spline Lub

[Jruby38]

I have a notion to make my own heavy duty spline lub.  I am going to mix 2 parts green grease with 1 part Lyman super moly I have for tumbling jacked rife bullets.  I am installing a new rear end and wheel I scored off a low mile trike conversation, both are in mint shape. My 99k units a toast, all rusted and worn out.  I don't think the Honda dealer did the proper maintance on tire changes.  I know the four drive line bolts have never been loosened, because I had chrome nut covers stuck on with RTV I have to bust off.

[Chrisj CMA]

You would be better off NOT mixing them togther.  Clean the splines and put the moly directly onto the metal and then cover it with the green grease.  It WILL mix itself but the moly in higher concentration on the metal will perform better than in diluted form

[RonW]

Clean the splines and put the moly directly onto the metal and then cover it with the green grease.  It WILL mix itself but the moly in higher concentration on the metal will perform better than in diluted form

hmmmm .... never would have thought of dat.

[98valk]

thin coat of cooper antiseize first, just like it comes from honda.
then 60-70% moly paste (I use TS-moly). will be good for at least 40k miles or every other tire change. http://www.jbjcycles.com/ stated this in rider mag a few yrs ago.
My last tire change with 13k miles, antisieze and paste were still there.

regular grease, then every 10k miles they will need to be regreased.

[eric in md]

i have mixed(lucas) or good  green grease , and moly paste since new has 104,000 now still look great

[John U.]

I have been mixing Green Grease with moly paste as well . It's been working very well but no I don't go 40K miles between lubes. It's also important to clean the splines of old grease regularly so that particles generated by wear do not act as grinding media to accelerate more wear.

[Daniel Meyer]

I know the four drive line bolts have never been loosened, because I had chrome nut covers stuck on with RTV I have to bust off.

That's the issue. Assembly is as important as lube in this case. Any grease'll do ya as long as you put it together right (including the 4-nut thing).

[Ricky-D]

I have to agree with DM: The important factor is the act of cleaning and new grease, regardless of variety.

How long between the service should determine the quality (type) of grease.

***

[PharmBoy]

I've had great results from Guard Dog Paste & Bel-Ray Waterproof Grease mixed 50/50.  Of course, I check it every 10 to 12 thousand miles.  Since it runs great every time I push the button & turn the handle, I have to do something to make me feel needed...Jim  

[Grandpot]

I'm 100% with Pluggy.

[R J]

I have used Bel-Ray Waterproof wheel bearing grease since May 1997 on MGM.  From June 1996 till May 1997, I have no idea what was used if anything.  MOM bought warranty on it right out the door so I used their expertise at the start.  Found that to be a fluck, and $$$$ wasted.

PS:    Dealer replaced the complete rear end assembly due to their Techs screw up, at 23K.     I, my son or another buddy of mine are the only ones who have been in there since.   NO clink, NO clunk, just a smooth running rear end.

242k miles later, he is still pulling the rear end hard, when ya twist the wick OPEN.

When we mounted the last CT everything looked like factory new.

This is just my experience for what it is worth.

[art]

i'm with RICKY-D good clean grease an periododically checking the splines .After 130000 miles  my splines are like new .I use wheel bearing grease an check every 8-10000 miles.Its easy to do an only takes about 1 1/2 hours

[Robert]

Pluggy I am interested why is your loyalty to the grease and splines idea and the way it was made even when proven they dont work. I have found that as with the Valk their are always problems and in certain areas poor designs. These splines on our Valks are to me a poor design and the factory grease almost useless. The number of failures out of the factory have been consistently high. Yet you say that the original is the best way obviously being well qualified to not only design a better way but to find something that gives peace of mind. I know there have been a few that have not had problems but that is the exception not the rule. This is my frustration, I am out repairing bad engineered designs every day and even with high failure rates nothing changes. I thought it was the automotive industry not wanting to invest in a redesign yet when I see Loyalty like yours I really want to know WHY? This is not a attack only a question, why can you at least to me, blindly support a idea that has a high failure rate with your qualifications?

[98valk]

Pluggy I am interested why is your loyalty to the grease and splines idea and the way it was made even when proven they dont work. I have found that as with the Valk their are always problems and in certain areas poor designs. These splines on our Valks are to me a poor design and the factory grease almost useless. The number of failures out of the factory have been consistently high. Yet you say that the original is the best way obviously being well qualified to not only design a better way but to find something that gives peace of mind. I know there have been a few that have not had problems but that is the exception not the rule. This is my frustration, I am out repairing bad engineered designs every day and even with high failure rates nothing changes. I thought it was the automotive industry not wanting to invest in a redesign yet when I see Loyalty like yours I really want to know WHY? This is not a attack only a question, why can you at least to me, blindly support a idea that has a high failure rate with your qualifications?

R, this design u call poor is being used by all of the manufacturers and has been for decades.
proper installation and using moly paste are the keys. moly provides long term  protection that grease cannot. this is the reason they have to be re-greased every 10k miles whereas moly paste lubed splines can go much longer.
what is amazing to me is that honda has been using this design since the early goldwings and has never put a maintenance interval in the tech manuals, that my friend is bad engineering and not the design of the splines.

[Chrisj CMA]

I don't try to out-engineer Honda.  I met thier engineers at an indusrty conference, and they are very bright.  A few spoke some English.  If Honda says use lubricant Moly 60, and use it this way I, will do it.  Period.

I have experience working on bikes.  After 30 years as an Aerospace engineer, and two degrees, I applied for a position as a motorcycle engineer.  I am not remotely qualified.  Those experts know far more than I ever will.  I choose to use Moly 60, right from the tube, the same way as the manual.
 

What utter BS!  Go ahead and use that moly 60 grease from Honda......I have a final drive and drive shaft to sell you when it fries.  

I wrote  a letter to Mother Honda out in California and made a formal complaint.  I told them I bought a Valkyrie with very low miles and factory tires still on it.  So Im pretty sure I was the first to open the rear after the factory.  I explained to Honda how the lube that was in there was heavy duty, sticky and did not appear to wash off or clean off very easy.

Then I brought up their crappy moly 60 that is a grease even though it says "paste" on it.  Dont believe me, read the fine print on the tube.  It says to use where moly GREASE is indicated NOT paste.  Deffinetly NOT what they use at the factory, no where near as good!

Anyways, they called me on the phone (I guess they wouldnt put what they had to say in writing) But the nice lady told me that I was exactly right.  They had been knowing that the moly 60 crap was no good.  And yes they had been knowing that some expensive repairs were needed because of it.  And NO they were not willing to do anything about it because there were not enough complaints and as far as they could tell the parts were getting enough use so they were not considered premature wear.

She thanked me and I asked her if they were sending me a new final drive and flange.  She laughed and said no, but if it were up to her she WOULD because as stated earlier she said I was exactly right.

[Chrisj CMA]

Pluggy I am interested why is your loyalty to the grease and splines idea and the way it was made even when proven they dont work. I have found that as with the Valk their are always problems and in certain areas poor designs. These splines on our Valks are to me a poor design and the factory grease almost useless. The number of failures out of the factory have been consistently high. Yet you say that the original is the best way obviously being well qualified to not only design a better way but to find something that gives peace of mind. I know there have been a few that have not had problems but that is the exception not the rule. This is my frustration, I am out repairing bad engineered designs every day and even with high failure rates nothing changes. I thought it was the automotive industry not wanting to invest in a redesign yet when I see Loyalty like yours I really want to know WHY? This is not a attack only a question, why can you at least to me, blindly support a idea that has a high failure rate with your qualifications?

R, this design u call poor is being used by all of the manufacturers and has been for decades.
proper installation and using moly paste are the keys. moly provides long term  protection that grease cannot. this is the reason they have to be re-greased every 10k miles whereas moly paste lubed splines can go much longer.
what is amazing to me is that honda has been using this design since the early goldwings and has never put a maintenance interval in the tech manuals, that my friend is bad engineering and not the design of the splines.

I totally agree with you CA.  It really doesnt matter what grease you use if you check it often and clean and regrease, but a good waterproof grease with moly will last more than 10,000 miles.  A guy I do his rear wheel for him never openes it up between tires and his splines look new.   Any grease that stays in there is sufficient to keep them parts from wear IF THEY WERE ASSEMBLED PROPERLY

If you do these two (actually three) things you will probably never wear out a final drive.

1.  ALWAYS loosen or remove the 4 bolts that hold the final drive on (to inspect the pinion cup and drive shaft) and have the right hand shock removed so you can torque the axle with NOTHING to interfere with perfect alignment

2.  Put whatever grease/paste in the final drive (female) teeth rather than the flange (male) side so the majority of the grease doesnt get pushed off the flange during assembly

3.  Use any good waterproof grease (does NOT include the crappy moly 60 in the tube from Honda)

[98valk]

ChrisMJ,
good to know about the honda 60, them selling grease while calling it paste. I have never used it. I like to use industrial products where I can if IPs can't handle industrial use they will be out of business whereas manufactures selling to the consumer a lesser product keeps them in business and us out of money.
I use TS-70 paste. 70% moly and used underwater on off shore rigs.
A big reason for the moly to be used on the splines is the high heat and pressures that are generated, and most greases cannot stand up long to that kind of abuse hence the need to redo 8-10k miles. Splines are used in industry and moly paste/lubricate is used.
I briefly looked into 5th wheel grease which sees high sliding pressures as a possible canidate but found the TS-70 instead.

[hubcapsc]

Then I brought up their crappy moly 60 that is a grease even though it says "paste" on it.  Dont believe me, read the fine print on the tube.  It says to use where moly GREASE is indicated NOT paste.  

I think it sez it can be used where moly 45 grease is recommended...



It feels/looks like all the other moly pastes I've looked at...





Dang... one of the places on Amazon has that loctite 8oz can for $4.95!  Me and Stanley
Steamer (well, Stanley  ) paid over $30 for it at Grainger!

I have good luck with Honda moly 60...



-Mike

[gordonv]

If you read it, it says use where Moly 45 is required. We want 60.

I would think then that there Moly 60 is only 45.

[Chrisj CMA]

Hello Chris and guys.  

Older shaft drive bikes, like BMW, had splines on the rear wheel with no O-rings to seal lubricant in.  Bel Ray waterproof grease was the best for that.  I use that on my 1980 Honda.  A lot of guys have the habit of using it.  Recent Hondas, assembled correctly, hold lubricant, seal out water, and look like Mike’s.  Sealed up, molybdenum disulfide is a great lubricant.  Like graphite, it is a solid material, sometimes used in a dry powdered form.
 
Many products suspend molybdenum disulfide powder in a petroleum-based carrier to make it easy to work with.  Honda sells it, and some are Dow Corning under the Molykote brand.   If it dries and cakes in there, that’s OK, it is meant to.  If it requires a lot of work to remove the dried-out material, it is on the job.
  
A dry bearing or sump is bad news, but for our rear drive splines, molybdenum disulfide works dry.

Yes, we have seen a few engineering designs that are at rev. Z.  But, looking at this assembly, when problems occur, I’d bet on a cause other than Honda lubricant.   We must be careful that everything is clean and the O-rings are good.  Laying a fresh load of grease in there is by itself not enough.
 
Anyhow, I want mine to look like Mike’s and believe Honda selected the right lubricant for the job.  It “looks” right to me, and Honda has some pretty sharp guys, so I choose to follow the book.

Well, I too thought like that until that grease failed me.  I believe its a good lubricant if it stays put, but unfortunately I feel its no where near waterproof.  I rode through some heavy rain and what water could get up in there washed all the Honda 60 stuff out.  I switched to guard dog moly 70 with a high pressure waterproof heavy equipment grease (similar to belray) over the top, and have never had a problem since.  Even after more torrential rain, that stuff stays on there

So after the nice lady from Honda told me that their great moly 60 was not up to the task I was confirmed in my steadfastness to NOT use that stuff on the splines.....do what works, but dont be uninformed, that stuff will wash out and should never be left unchecked for more than half a tire or a heavy rain ride whatever comes first

[art]

I don't see the problem here.When you replace your tire at around 10000 miles how hard is it to clean an regrease the splines?If you don't do it yourself you better make sure whoever is doing the work dose the proper maintenance..Not to change the subject but I recently did my splines an pinion cup .To my amazement the little holes in the pinion cup do let in some oil from the rear housing.the cup was oily an there was still grease present

[98valk]

I don't see the problem here.When you replace your tire at around 10000 miles how hard is it to clean an regrease the splines?If you don't do it yourself you better make sure whoever is doing the work dose the proper maintenance..Not to change the subject but I recently did my splines an pinion cup .To my amazement the little holes in the pinion cup do let in some oil from the rear housing.the cup was oily an there was still grease present

the holes are not designed to do that. grease is nothing more than oil suspended in a carrier, so the oil's lubricating qualities stay put. the oil u saw was the oil coming out of the grease.

[Chrisj CMA]

I don't see the problem here.When you replace your tire at around 10000 miles how hard is it to clean an regrease the splines?If you don't do it yourself you better make sure whoever is doing the work dose the proper maintenance..Not to change the subject but I recently did my splines an pinion cup .To my amazement the little holes in the pinion cup do let in some oil from the rear housing.the cup was oily an there was still grease present

I wouldnt buy another tire of the same kind if I only got 10,000 miles on it.  Thats why I said half a tire or heavy rain whichever comes first.  If you only get 10K then yes at every tire would be good, hope those tires are cheap though

[98valk]

the redness is not rust but actually copper anti-sieze from the factory. This is my second tire change and just added the TS-70 moly to what was already there from the factory. so at 26k the copper anti-sieze is still there. and so was the moly. cleaned them this time and zero wear.
"copper anti-seize and thread lubricant that may be used to prevent seizing, corrosion and galling where high temperature conditions exist."

[RonW]

"copper anti-seize and thread lubricant that may be used to prevent seizing, corrosion and galling where high temperature conditions exist."

just visited Amazon and there's also a ceramic anti-seize for extreme temperatures ($15.47). Haven't used it myself.

"Non-melting, 100% synthetic based formula, loaded with ceramic solids - temperature range -65F to +2800F"

[Pluggy]

Thanks for the pictures, CA.  Your photo and Mike's have something in common.  A good-looking large o-ring along with good splines.  Somebody posted a picture of a rusty spline set with that o-ring crushed out-of-shape.  Bikes with good o-rings appear to be more "rainproof" than those without.

Honda charges super top dollar for o-rings.  But, the hardware store ones I've run across are not exactly the same.  Ebay has them in a set, but are they equal to Honda? 

[hubcapsc]

Thanks for the pictures, CA.  Your photo and Mike's have something in common.  A good-looking large o-ring along with good splines.  Somebody posted a picture of a rusty spline set with that o-ring crushed out-of-shape.  Bikes with good o-rings appear to be more "rainproof" than those without.

Honda charges super top dollar for o-rings.  But, the hardware store ones I've run across are not exactly the same.  Ebay has them in a set, but are they equal to Honda? 

I use these ones...

http://www.carolinabikeandtrike.com/ORings.htm

-Mike

[Ricky-D]

***

[98valk]

Thanks for the pictures, CA.  Your photo and Mike's have something in common.  A good-looking large o-ring along with good splines.  Somebody posted a picture of a rusty spline set with that o-ring crushed out-of-shape.  Bikes with good o-rings appear to be more "rainproof" than those without.

Honda charges super top dollar for o-rings.  But, the hardware store ones I've run across are not exactly the same.  Ebay has them in a set, but are they equal to Honda? 

still org o-rings. no flat spots or cracks. well preserved in moly paste. 

[Robert]

How about this as a idea, CV joints use moly grease the difference is they are encased. How about a rubber cover over the end and the drive shaft where they go together in order to keep the grease in and water/dirt out. Very similar to what they do on a cv joint. Then fill the thing with the moly just like the  cv joints do. The only other thing is the hole in the base of the splined receptor will have to be closed. The rubber cover wont be big and there is enough clearance to even put a clamp on it. Assembly can be while the rear and shaft are out and it will be impervious to all the elements. This mod should last almost the life of the bike because the moly grease used on the cv joints flows and will continue to lubricate. It only should require a rubber cover no major design modification and will last the life of the bike. I have looked for a cv cover small enough but haven't found one yet not to mention it has to be straight without the bulges on the side because there isn't enough clearance. There isnt to much flex in that coupler just enough to be a problem. I think I will look harder.

How to Replace a CV Joint : How to Install a Drive Shaft	powered by Aeva

[Ricky-D]

That's what the seal is for actually, and the main line of defense is the:

Swingarm boot

Insuring what is already there, is in good condition and properly installed negates the need for any additional protection measures.

***

[..]

Just to throw a spanner into the works

Here's a photo of my ST1300 splines at 87,000 miles.



Here's what I've used since 2003.



http://www.amazon.com/Lucas-10301-X-tra-Heavy-Grease/dp/B000IG20RW

Of course on the ST I have a new tire at about 7 to 8,000 miles and of course everythign is cleaned meticulously before new grease is applied.

I beleive car tire users may have problems due to not servicing splines for the length of the car tire use. 15,000 miles plus and in some instances not for a couple of years???

[Jruby38]

I started all this!  All I can say is my drive line was all rusty and I had at least 3/4 inch of play in the splines and hub, but the bike has 99k miles also.  I am going to try a mixture of  Lyman dry bullet moly mixed with waterproof green grease, and Honda paste.  One of them should work.  That green grease I buy at Advance Auto Parts  is good stuff.  Very sticky and waterproof so I think it will keep my new setup from getting all rusty.

[RP#62]

Pluggy I am interested why is your loyalty to the grease and splines idea and the way it was made even when proven they dont work. I have found that as with the Valk their are always problems and in certain areas poor designs. These splines on our Valks are to me a poor design and the factory grease almost useless. The number of failures out of the factory have been consistently high. Yet you say that the original is the best way obviously being well qualified to not only design a better way but to find something that gives peace of mind. I know there have been a few that have not had problems but that is the exception not the rule. This is my frustration, I am out repairing bad engineered designs every day and even with high failure rates nothing changes. I thought it was the automotive industry not wanting to invest in a redesign yet when I see Loyalty like yours I really want to know WHY? This is not a attack only a question, why can you at least to me, blindly support a idea that has a high failure rate with your qualifications?

R, this design u call poor is being used by all of the manufacturers and has been for decades.
proper installation and using moly paste are the keys. moly provides long term  protection that grease cannot. this is the reason they have to be re-greased every 10k miles whereas moly paste lubed splines can go much longer.
what is amazing to me is that honda has been using this design since the early goldwings and has never put a maintenance interval in the tech manuals, that my friend is bad engineering and not the design of the splines.

I don't agree, I think it is a poor design.  This is based on my experience with an 1100 Virago.  The Virago set up is very similar to the Valkyrie, but rear spline problems are not existent on Viragos.  The grease looks as good coming out as it did going in.  The primary difference in the two designs is that on the Valkyrie, the big O-ring on the drive flange doesn't make contact with the sealing surface in the hub until the splines are all the way seated.  If any wobble occurs (and it does because of the way the flange is rubber mounted in the wheel), you loose O-ring contact and start slinging grease.  There are things that can be done to mitigate this such as using a light bodied sticky grease that doesn't sling easy, observing proper assembly techniques to minimize wobble, etc.  On the Virago splines, the big O-ring makes initial contact with the sealing surface nearly 1/4-in before the splines are fully seated in the hub bore. The bore is slightly bell-mouthed so by the time the splines are fully seated, the big O-ring makes a positive seal and there are no issues with losing grease or premature spline wear.  In fact, any type of moly grease or CV lube works fine in this application.

-RP

[RonW]

Britman, what kind of solvent do you use since you clean it every 7-8000 miles?

[deadwood]

+1 on a poor design.
My 1100 Goldwing went 105K miles before I sold it. Never had a driveshaft problem. It did not require the MX my Valkyrie driveshaft does.

Pluggy I am interested why is your loyalty to the grease and splines idea and the way it was made even when proven they dont work. I have found that as with the Valk their are always problems and in certain areas poor designs. These splines on our Valks are to me a poor design and the factory grease almost useless. The number of failures out of the factory have been consistently high. Yet you say that the original is the best way obviously being well qualified to not only design a better way but to find something that gives peace of mind. I know there have been a few that have not had problems but that is the exception not the rule. This is my frustration, I am out repairing bad engineered designs every day and even with high failure rates nothing changes. I thought it was the automotive industry not wanting to invest in a redesign yet when I see Loyalty like yours I really want to know WHY? This is not a attack only a question, why can you at least to me, blindly support a idea that has a high failure rate with your qualifications?

R, this design u call poor is being used by all of the manufacturers and has been for decades.
proper installation and using moly paste are the keys. moly provides long term  protection that grease cannot. this is the reason they have to be re-greased every 10k miles whereas moly paste lubed splines can go much longer.
what is amazing to me is that honda has been using this design since the early goldwings and has never put a maintenance interval in the tech manuals, that my friend is bad engineering and not the design of the splines.

I don't agree, I think it is a poor design.  This is based on my experience with an 1100 Virago.  The Virago set up is very similar to the Valkyrie, but rear spline problems are not existent on Viragos.  The grease looks as good coming out as it did going in.  The primary difference in the two designs is that on the Valkyrie, the big O-ring on the drive flange doesn't make contact with the sealing surface in the hub until the splines are all the way seated.  If any wobble occurs (and it does because of the way the flange is rubber mounted in the wheel), you loose O-ring contact and start slinging grease.  There are things that can be done to mitigate this such as using a light bodied sticky grease that doesn't sling easy, observing proper assembly techniques to minimize wobble, etc.  On the Virago splines, the big O-ring makes initial contact with the sealing surface nearly 1/4-in before the splines are fully seated in the hub bore. The bore is slightly bell-mouthed so by the time the splines are fully seated, the big O-ring makes a positive seal and there are no issues with losing grease or premature spline wear.  In fact, any type of moly grease or CV lube works fine in this application.

-RP

[..]

Britman, what kind of solvent do you use since you clean it every 7-8000 miles?

No solvent. Just old toothbrushes and lint free shop towels. The photo is partially clean.

[RP#62]

Mineral spirits (paint thinner) works fine.
-RP

[indybobm]

Here's a photo of my ST1300 splines at 87,000 miles.




From indybobm:
I realize that this picture is from a ST1300, but on the Valkyrie there is an O-Ring Holder (Item #14 on the parts fische) in the center that makes it harder to clean the splines. Can this be removed from the center to aid cleaning. If so, how does it come out?

[art]

I don't see the problem here.When you replace your tire at around 10000 miles how hard is it to clean an regrease the splines?If you don't do it yourself you better make sure whoever is doing the work dose the proper maintenance..Not to change the subject but I recently did my splines an pinion cup .To my amazement the little holes in the pinion cup do let in some oil from the rear housing.the cup was oily an there was still grease present

I wouldnt buy another tire of the same kind if I only got 10,000 miles on it.  Thats why I said half a tire or heavy rain whichever comes first.  If you only get 10K then yes at every tire would be good, hope those tires are cheap though

I didn't say I only got 10000 miles on a tire.Some people do ,I usually get 25000 on a rear tire but I do check the rear splines every 10000 miles.The oil did come out of the holes an lub the pinion cup.I know this because I had to replace the cup an shaft when the holes were pluged up an the splines ran dry.I do know the difference between rear end oil an bearing grease