Home owner 1 - Scum Bag 0...

[Black Dog]

As if she didn't have enough to deal with...

http://gma.yahoo.com/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder-911-operators-okay-091106413.html

Good on her 

Black Dog

[Daniel Meyer]

 

[Hedgehog]

Poor woman - it don't rain but it pours...

[DarkMeister]

Textbook-justified 100%! Poor girl will have to deal with her own issues (killing a person) but she really had NO choice. Good for her. 
Interesting, just how determined and persistent bad guys can be.

[R J]

Good on her, but if I'd of been doing the shooting, he'd of lost willie and his 2 brothers in the process, and left to die a slow death, from loss of blood.

I have no time for those stupid bastards who break into a women's home just because they think they can do it and maybe get something by force.

[Spirited-6]

Good on her, but if I'd of been doing the shooting, he'd of lost willie and his 2 brothers in the process, and left to die a slow death, from loss of blood.

I have no time for those stupid bastards who break into a women's home just because they think they can do it and maybe get something by force.

I agree RJ. But in the heat of the battle, go for the mass. 

[Daniel Meyer]

Interesting, just how determined and persistent bad guys can be.

These are particularly bad, bad guys...reading obits and selecting victims in advance etc...some read the obits and go for property crime as they know folks will be out of the house/etc, sounds like these guys were going for the girl.

Bet they've done this before.

This kind of thing is common enough that if I was a police detective with some time on my hands I'd be running fake obits with staked out addresses.

[musclehead]

yer darn tootin' it's justified!

I don't know if I'd be psychologically ok with taking someone's life, but through all the close calls on the road with complete idiots, I sleep just fine.

[MacDragon]

I know, it's just too bad.
See also on this forum from a couple hours ago... http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,36830.0.html

[musclehead]

Interesting, just how determined and persistent bad guys can be.

Bet they've done this before.

I bet the one won't do it again!

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Sad that she had to deal with that but it's good that the POS is dead. She probably saved more than just herself and her child. She saved his next victims too.

[doubletee]

As it should be. Anyone with bad intentions that determined to forcibly enter another person's home is of zero good to society.

Good for her and I hope she's able to somehow not let this trouble her mind for even 1 second of the rest of her life. (not likely, I know, but she has no reason to feel sorry or badly for her actions)

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Hopefully the police cleaned up the mess in the house for her. I knew a guy whose babysitters boyfriend committed suicide in his house by blowing his brains all over the wall and ceiling.

When it was all said and done he had a nasty clean up job to do.

[Jess from VA]

Interesting, just how determined and persistent bad guys can be.

These are particularly bad, bad guys...reading obits and selecting victims in advance etc...some read the obits and go for property crime as they know folks will be out of the house/etc, sounds like these guys were going for the girl.

Bet they've done this before.

This kind of thing is common enough that if I was a police detective with some time on my hands I'd be running fake obits with staked out addresses.

You think just like I do!    
Was involved in several stings in the USAF.

[Devl]

Good on her...you bet cha
I'd do the same and not think twice bout it!

[fudgie]

Hopefully the police cleaned up the mess in the house for her. I knew a guy whose babysitters boyfriend committed suicide in his house by blowing his brains all over the wall and ceiling.

When it was all said and done he had a nasty clean up job to do.

Police wont even touch it. Coroner will pick up what they can/need but no cleaning. Its up to the homeowner. There are places that clean up messes for the homeowner. I know I came home with bits still on my boots before. 

[alph]

i can't believe she was on the phone with 911 for 21 minutes!!  were's she live, the middle of nowhere?  you would think that the cops should have been there in at least 10 minutes!!

i'm glad someone taught her how to load, aim and shoot!!  that scum bag was destine to die!!

[fudgie]

i can't believe she was on the phone with 911 for 21 minutes!!  were's she live, the middle of nowhere?  you would think that the cops should have been there in at least 10 minutes!!

i'm glad someone taught her how to load, aim and shoot!!  that scum bag was destine to die!!

I believe it. Supreme court ruled police have no duty to protect citizens. Thats why you need to take it upon yourself for your own protection. You should not rely on someone else. Unless your buddy it carring. 

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Remember, never use reloads for home defense. It's just be too hard to explain to a jury why you had to cut up the corpse to see how your bullet preformed. 

[fudgie]

 

Remember, never use reloads for home defense. It's just be too hard to explain to a jury why you had to cut up the corpse to see how your bullet preformed. 

 

[Karen]

Any assault survivor will tell you she meant exactly what she said, and that it won't weigh that much on her that she took a life. She had no alternative, and used the option available to her. 

[Jess from VA]

i can't believe she was on the phone with 911 for 21 minutes!!  were's she live, the middle of nowhere?  you would think that the cops should have been there in at least 10 minutes!!

i'm glad someone taught her how to load, aim and shoot!!  that scum bag was destine to die!!

Some people actually live way out in nowhere.  However, someone may not come for a long time (or ever) wherever you live.

Remember 911 is trained to keep you on the phone......... for the lone homeowner, that's just bullsh!t in most cases if you are retrieving or holding a gun, and watching what is going on outside, finding your position, turning on or off lights, and preparing a plan of action as you should be.  Especially if you are holding a rifle or shotgun.  At that point, the dispatcher cannot help you at all and is simply interfering with your life... you don't need to be holding a telephone in your hand to your head.  

You could set it down, but I would say "Ok, the cops are on the way, tell them I'm armed and a bald white guy, 58yo,  5'9" ,in Jeans and an NRA Tshirt, tell them to hurry." click.  The tape of the call, thru shots fired, could as easily be used against you, as well as for you.  

On the other hand, if you think you could do it well, you could set the phone down, and be yelling, "stop, stop, don't break in, I have a gun, if you break in I will shoot you, I don't want to do it, but I will, he's broken the door down now, crash, stop, stop, bang bang bang  ..... all creating a taped record for the grand jury.   But I sure as heck won't be holding the phone to my head during this.

If you shoot someone and all is under control, you can call them back and tell them to send the coroner and an ambulance too.   (Try to act sad on the phone at this point)   (With all the adrenaline pumping and increased respiration and excitement, it would be easy to come across as elated, happy and/or pissed off at the perp for making you shoot him.... all on tape)

If he's seriously injured but not dead and no risk at all, appearing to have tried to render aid will also look very good.

(And consider very carefully what you will say when the cops arrive, if anything) (Don't drag them outside, even if they are ruining your carpet) (if it turns out they had no weapon after forcibly breaking in, make sure they have a weapon before the police arrive.... not one of your six matching steak knives, not traceable to you and not with your fingerprints on it) (and remember, a woman will get a walk on this kind of thing way more than a man)

If you have time, calling 911 can be good evidence that you fear for your life.  But if I see a break-in in progress, I doubt I'd ever call 911 until it was over.

[Cliff]

Noting like a little instant karma!!!  Kudos to her.

[DarkMeister]

(Try to act sad on the phone at this point)  

 

[Chrisj CMA]

i can't believe she was on the phone with 911 for 21 minutes!!  were's she live, the middle of nowhere?  you would think that the cops should have been there in at least 10 minutes!!

i'm glad someone taught her how to load, aim and shoot!!  that scum bag was destine to die!!

Some people actually live way out in nowhere.  However, someone may not come for a long time (or ever) wherever you live.

Remember 911 is trained to keep you on the phone......... for the lone homeowner, that's just bullsh!t in most cases if you are retrieving or holding a gun, and watching what is going on outside, finding your position, turning on or off lights, and preparing a plan of action as you should be.  Especially if you are holding a rifle or shotgun.  At that point, the dispatcher cannot help you at all and is simply interfering with your life... you don't need to be holding a telephone in your hand to your head.  

You could set it down, but I would say "Ok, the cops are on the way, tell them I'm armed and a bald white guy, 58yo,  5'9" ,in Jeans and an NRA Tshirt, tell them to hurry." click.  The tape of the call, thru shots fired, could as easily be used against you, as well as for you.  

On the other hand, if you think you could do it well, you could set the phone down, and be yelling, "stop, stop, don't break in, I have a gun, if you break in I will shoot you, I don't want to do it, but I will, he's broken the door down now, crash, stop, stop, bang bang bang  ..... all creating a taped record for the grand jury.   But I sure as heck won't be holding the phone to my head during this.

If you shoot someone and all is under control, you can call them back and tell them to send the coroner and an ambulance too.   (Try to act sad on the phone at this point)   (With all the adrenaline pumping and increased respiration and excitement, it would be easy to come across as elated, happy and/or pissed off at the perp for making you shoot him.... all on tape)

If he's seriously injured but not dead and no risk at all, appearing to have tried to render aid will also look very good.

(And consider very carefully what you will say when the cops arrive, if anything) (Don't drag them outside, even if they are ruining your carpet) (if it turns out they had no weapon after forcibly breaking in, make sure they have a weapon before the police arrive.... not one of your six matching steak knives, not traceable to you and not with your fingerprints on it) (and remember, a woman will get a walk on this kind of thing way more than a man)

If you have time, calling 911 can be good evidence that you fear for your life.  But if I see a break-in in progress, I doubt I'd ever call 911 until it was over.

This seems like all good advice.  Some of the things I have thought about and some was new (for me) Thanks.  All except the part about "planting" weapons.  As far as Im concerned THEY ARE THE WEAPON.  If they needed a tool to break in, then that is a weapon too.  If they were strong enough to knock the door in using only their body, then their body is a sufficient weapon to require me to make it more holey

[eric in md]

i love it we all need to start killing scum bags that do this.. i bet crime would slow down , also just think about all the tax money we will save if we kill them instead of keeping them in jail ..

[Jess from VA]

All except the part about "planting" weapons.  As far as I'm concerned THEY ARE THE WEAPON.  If they needed a tool to break in, then that is a weapon too.  If they were strong enough to knock the door in using only their body, then their body is a sufficient weapon to require me to make it more holey

I agree Jeff, plus it's obviously a big felony in itself, and if caught it would be used to help try and convict you of murder or manslaughter.  The goal is to never be charged at all... if you are and get acquitted anyway, you're still out 10 or 20 grand for the defense.  Jurisdictions like FL and TX are pretty self-defense-in-your-home oriented, but many places are self defense haters, and a liberal asswipe prosecutor (like Eric Holder) can be trying to make a name for himself.

A woman should never need to do it..... but if you are a big strong man and the meth head perp is a little scrawny 100lb guy with NO weapon other than his crazyness, then maybe you can deal with him without a firearm............ but I am unwilling to grapple with anybody, and if I shoot I shoot to kill.... and then he's going to have a big screwdriver, crowbar, knife, or 2 X 4 when the cops arrive. A calculated risk.... but only in a very specific circumstance.  (and remember the follow-on wrongful death lawsuit by his dysfunctional and poor family will also go better if he was armed with something).

And then after the fact, they discover you have a house full of firearms, are ex military with a 214 that shows expert in rifle and pisto l(maybe a PJ), an NRA life member, etc, and they decide you were predisposed to kill anyone coming thru your door regardless of actual risk.

Size and strength disparity is always an important issue in any assault case (from simple to homicide).

[Chrisj CMA]

And then after the fact, they discover you have a house full of firearms, are ex military with a 214 that shows expert in rifle and pisto l(maybe a PJ), an NRA life member, etc, and they decide you were predisposed to kill anyone coming thru your door regardless of actual risk.

Hey! I resemble that remark.........remarkably close........howd you knowd that?  All except the life member of the NRA........I guess Ill hold off on that until I find out how youse gets all my info..... 

[czuch]

May the Good Lord hold this poor woman in his hands.
I live rural. The Cops arent gonna get there in time at all.
Think of the "wild west". How many people were west-o-the Mississippi in the back half of the 1800's?
How many had, and regularly carried guns?
How many "gunslingers" can you name? On both sides of the law?
An armed society IS a polite society.

[Jess from VA]

And then after the fact, they discover you have a house full of firearms, are ex military with a 214 that shows expert in rifle and pisto l(maybe a PJ), an NRA life member, etc, and they decide you were predisposed to kill anyone coming thru your door regardless of actual risk.

Hey! I resemble that remark.........remarkably close........how'd you knowd that?  All except the life member of the NRA........I guess Ill hold off on that until I find out how youse gets all my info..... 

Well, that actually is me.... except I'm not a life member either, and I wasn't a PJ, I was a combat JAG (which is a joke, there are no 'combat JAGs').

[fudgie]

Another thing to add Jess if your on the phone, is tell 911 your in fear for your life. Might help you in court, if needed.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Another thing to add Jess if your on the phone, is tell 911 your in fear for your life. Might help you in court, if needed.

Yep.

[Jess from VA]

Another thing to add Jess if your on the phone, is tell 911 your in fear for your life. Might help you in court, if needed.

Well, that's what I said in the last sentence in my original post.

But it wouldn't be true.  Me sitting there with a .45ACP and an 870 waiting in ambush for a dirtbag or three, planning my moves.  My only fear would be the criminal justice system, and wrongful death lawsuit.

I will not be calling 911 at all, if possible.

[fudgie]

What? Fear the Gov? 

[RP#62]

They were saying on the news tonight that under Oklahoma's castle law, if someone breaks into your house, the presumption is that they intend to do you bodily harm and deadly force is justified even if they are unarmed.
-RP

[Jess from VA]

Legal presumptions can generally be overcome by 'clear and convincing evidence to the contrary.'  This can be impossible but can easy, IF the evidence is there.

I think I have related this true story before, but it is worth repeating.  There was a man who lived alone and kept his doors unlocked (criminal behavior to me), who awoke to noise of someone in the dark house.  He grabbed his pistola, went downstairs, saw movement, and shot and killed the intruder.  

The intruder was a 12-13yo deaf boy, very new to the neighborhood (week or two).  The neighborhood, like mine, had essentially four different home construction types, repeated randomly throughout.  It was the first time the boy came home after dark, and he thought he was entering his own residence.  The shooter was convicted of manslaughter and did hard time. Had he kept his doors locked, this would not have happened. Had he exercised some judgment, it probably would not have happened.  

You can have a castle doctrine, or not.  You have pretty wide latitude in your own home even without a castle doctrine.  But a shoot-on-sight mentality inside your home is a mistake.  And putting a weapon in the boys hands would have been laughable, and simply added a criminal charge, and time to the sentence.

[Chrisj CMA]

Legal presumptions can generally be overcome by 'clear and convincing evidence to the contrary.'  This can be impossible but can easy, IF the evidence is there.

I think I have related this true story before, but it is worth repeating.  There was a man who lived alone and kept his doors unlocked (criminal behavior to me), who awoke to noise of someone in the dark house.  He grabbed his pistola, went downstairs, saw movement, and shot and killed the intruder.  

The intruder was a 12-13yo deaf boy, very new to the neighborhood (week or two).  The neighborhood, like mine, had essentially four different home construction types, repeated randomly throughout.  It was the first time the boy came home after dark, and he thought he was entering his own residence.  The shooter was convicted of manslaughter and did hard time. Had he kept his doors locked, this would not have happened. Had he exercised some judgment, it probably would not have happened.  

You can have a castle doctrine, or not.  You have pretty wide latitude in your own home even without a castle doctrine.  But a shoot-on-sight mentality inside your home is a mistake.  And putting a weapon in the boys hands would have been laughable, and simply added a criminal charge, and time to the sentence.

Kinda why I keep a 180lumen surefire flashlight on the nightstand that my pistol is in.  We have way too many in the family now...Id hate to shoot first and find out it was one of us

[john]

 " She saved his next victims too."            
any one breaking into your house has no good intentions .           

[JimC]

The good part of this story is that 1 BAD guy is dead!

The sad part of this story is that she only lived 3 miles from the local city limits. On another board I frequent a couple of guys that live in that area posted some info that is quite disturbing. They stated that the local CITY cops were waiting at their city limits to be asked for their assistance. The local COUNTY who has jurisdiction in her area never asked for assistance so legally they could not respond.

I am retired LEO and I had the same situation play out dozens if not hundreds of times in my career. The municipalities rely on mutual aid in situations like that, but they have to be requested before they act. Personally I feel that the person who was in charge of the COUNTY Sheriffs department should be fired. It seems today municipalities care more about protecting their territory than helping the citizens.

Jim

[Gangman036]

I wonder with all this going on..........does she need to know thousands of people support what she HAD to do and does she need anything?
I think that a care package might help, or a monetary donation to show her that people support her and more importantly.....care about her.

Ride Safe.