Titan
Member
Posts: 819
BikeLess
Lexington, SC
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« on: January 24, 2012, 08:31:21 AM » |
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 09:39:05 AM » |
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That'll be an interesting case (I'm sure it will continue appeals)
The SCOTUS long ago ruled that your writings, blogs, diaries, etc can be used against you despite the 5th...even if they were never made or intended to be public...but in this case, they are ordering her to produce the unencrypted data, which would mean ordering her to provide the key, which is her private knowledge.
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer  |
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Full_Throttle
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 10:19:59 AM » |
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I believe the judge is correct in this case. Think of the laptop as a filing cabinet, and her documents as, well, files or documents. If the prosecution had a search warrant to search your house and filing cabinet, and you held the key to the filing cabinet, you would be expected to hand over that key. In my mind's eye there is no difference here....she holds the "key" to unlocking her files....it doesn't matter where the files are in her possession whether that is a basement room, a locked filing cabinet or a laptop hard drive. If they wanted to search a locked car for a document, I don't think anyone would be claiming 5th amendment rights so they didn't have to unlock the car. My 2 cents. |
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ptgb
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 10:55:01 AM » |
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I believe the judge is correct in this case.
Think of the laptop as a filing cabinet, and her documents as, well, files or documents. If the prosecution had a search warrant to search your house and filing cabinet, and you held the key to the filing cabinet, you would be expected to hand over that key. In my mind's eye there is no difference here....she holds the "key" to unlocking her files....it doesn't matter where the files are in her possession whether that is a basement room, a locked filing cabinet or a laptop hard drive.
If they wanted to search a locked car for a document, I don't think anyone would be claiming 5th amendment rights so they didn't have to unlock the car.
My 2 cents.
There is one slight difference, but I agree with your general premise though. If the filing cabinet was locked, with a valid search warrant and no key, the police could simply break open the filing cabinet. So no key necessary and no violation of 5th (or 4th for that matter). In this case, they could get the data from the computer by breaking the encryption, but the WIRED article that this story was gleaned from says to break a complex encryption could literally take years. So under the filing cabinet example, the papers inside would have to be in a language that only she (the accused) could understand and to decipher them, someone would have to spend vast amounts of time figuring out this language. Does compelling her to translate it violate her right against self-incrimination? i can see the premise, but don't agree with it. These kinds of questions are going to become more and more prevalent in this digital age. She should be compelled to give the data without encryption under the auspices of the valid search warrant. |
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« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 11:18:37 AM by ptgb »
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 Lower Lakes 1000 - 07/07 & 09/10 * Bun Burner GOLD - 09/10 Lake Superior 1000 - 07/11 * Lake Michigan 1000 - 09/11 * Lake Huron 1000 - 09/11 Saddlesore 2000 - 09/11 * Ohio 1000 - 07/13 |
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Oss
Member
Posts: 12884
The lower Hudson Valley
Ossining NY Chapter Rep VRCCDS0141
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 11:59:56 AM » |
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I dont buy it
not for a minute Its one thing to seize items, to seize a mind crosses the line in the sand for me
IMHO she should just let the judge impose a contempt order put her in jail and then get
an Appeal of the Order.
If the govmt can crack the code so be it, if they want it enough they have the
ability to crack any encryption after all
To force a person to provide a key is a pile of horsepucky
sorry for the strong language
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If you don't know where your going any road will take you there
George Harrison
When you come to the fork in the road, take it
Yogi Berra (Don't send it to me C.O.D.)
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Fritz The Cat
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 12:40:30 PM » |
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I believe the judge is correct in this case. Think of the laptop as a filing cabinet, and her documents as, well, files or documents. If the prosecution had a search warrant to search your house and filing cabinet, and you held the key to the filing cabinet, you would be expected to hand over that key. In my mind's eye there is no difference here....she holds the "key" to unlocking her files....it doesn't matter where the files are in her possession whether that is a basement room, a locked filing cabinet or a laptop hard drive. If they wanted to search a locked car for a document, I don't think anyone would be claiming 5th amendment rights so they didn't have to unlock the car. My 2 cents. This is the sort of mentality that is robbing us of our freedom.Where does it stop?? Answer, total enslavement. |
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SANDMAN5
Member
Posts: 2176
Mileage 65875
East TN
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 12:54:22 PM » |
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pile of horsepucky I'm gonna have to find another forum. Too much profanity here!!  |
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"Evolution" is a dying religion being kept alive with tax dollars.  |
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Full_Throttle
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2012, 01:17:22 PM » |
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I believe the judge is correct in this case. Think of the laptop as a filing cabinet, and her documents as, well, files or documents. If the prosecution had a search warrant to search your house and filing cabinet, and you held the key to the filing cabinet, you would be expected to hand over that key. In my mind's eye there is no difference here....she holds the "key" to unlocking her files....it doesn't matter where the files are in her possession whether that is a basement room, a locked filing cabinet or a laptop hard drive. If they wanted to search a locked car for a document, I don't think anyone would be claiming 5th amendment rights so they didn't have to unlock the car. My 2 cents. This is the sort of mentality that is robbing us of our freedom.Where does it stop?? Answer, total enslavement. really....REALLY? a legal search warrant is NOT robbing anyone. If this was a PHYSICAL key to a PHYSICAL lock, there would be no issue. She is not being forced to testify, where is the problem? I guess I just don't see it. I am not opposed to the high courts making a ruling on this, I just don't see where 5th amendment rights apply. ??? |
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sugerbear
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2012, 01:23:40 PM » |
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I dont buy it
not for a minute Its one thing to seize items, to seize a mind crosses the line in the sand for me
IMHO she should just let the judge impose a contempt order put her in jail and then get
an Appeal of the Order.
If the govmt can crack the code so be it, if they want it enough they have the
ability to crack any encryption after all
To force a person to provide a key is a pile of horsepucky
sorry for the strong language
+1 if the court wants the data, bust the lock and get it themselves. |
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Oss
Member
Posts: 12884
The lower Hudson Valley
Ossining NY Chapter Rep VRCCDS0141
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2012, 01:36:01 PM » |
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the only exception to my post would be if she made a deal with the govmt and in order to get the deal she has to provide the key sorry bob. hate to see you go, enjoy talking with you  |
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If you don't know where your going any road will take you there
George Harrison
When you come to the fork in the road, take it
Yogi Berra (Don't send it to me C.O.D.)
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tank_post142
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 01:56:15 PM » |
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a group of us were pulled over in riviera beach just north of here last Oct. the officer said our exhaust was too loud. he pulled out his meter and order us each to rev our bikes to 3000 rpms to he could get a reading. i advised my fellow riders to decline, sighting the 5th amendment provisions covering self incrimination. we we're all ticketed. as a group we appeared the following Wednesday in court as directed by the officer, the judge laughed and tossed all the tickets. the officer was lectured soundly concerning citizen's rights under the US constitution.
i believe that the 5th amendment gives you the right NOT to provide evidence against yourself in any criminal or civil action.
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I got a rock  VRCCDS0246  |
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PAVALKER
Member
Posts: 4435
Retired Navy 22YOS, 2014 Valkyrie , VRCC# 27213
Pittsburgh, Pa
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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 02:12:13 PM » |
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If her file cabinet was locked, they would break the lock to get to the papers and that would be fine. However, if her papers were encrypted she should not have to give them the cypher code and incriminate herself. The government encrypts quite a bit of their data...... But how much of it can be released in the decrypted form based on a FOI request, or even a suspected crime? I think the judge is wrong.... They have what they want, they just don't know how to read it.
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John  |
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Willow
Administrator
Member
Posts: 16859
Excessive comfort breeds weakness. PttP
Olathe, KS
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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2012, 02:14:14 PM » |
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pile of horsepucky I'm gonna have to find another forum. Too much profanity here!! sorry bob. hate to see you go, enjoy talking with you
Please keep your future disgusting ejaculations to the realm of the bovine yield.  |
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Psychotic Bovine
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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2012, 02:29:18 PM » |
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pile of horsepucky I'm gonna have to find another forum. Too much profanity here!! sorry bob. hate to see you go, enjoy talking with you
Please keep your future disgusting ejaculations to the realm of the bovine yield. I take exception to that, Willow! |
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"I aim to misbehave."
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Willow
Administrator
Member
Posts: 16859
Excessive comfort breeds weakness. PttP
Olathe, KS
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« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2012, 02:33:15 PM » |
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pile of horsepucky I'm gonna have to find another forum. Too much profanity here!! sorry bob. hate to see you go, enjoy talking with you
Please keep your future disgusting ejaculations to the realm of the bovine yield. I take exception to that, Willow!  Sorry, Oss. It looks like we're down to rabbit pellets.  |
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2012, 02:51:39 PM » |
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer |
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MP
Member
Posts: 5532
1997 Std Valkyrie and 2001 red/blk I/S w/sidecar
North Dakota
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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2012, 02:57:17 PM » |
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pile of horsepucky I'm gonna have to find another forum. Too much profanity here!! sorry bob. hate to see you go, enjoy talking with you
Please keep your future disgusting ejaculations to the realm of the bovine yield. I take exception to that, Willow! Are you talking about the pellets that go in the front end, or the pellets that come out the back? LOL MP |
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 "Ridin' with Cycho" |
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scoot
Member
Posts: 909
Lifes too short Ride it hard
Grand Rapids Mi.
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2012, 03:28:47 PM » |
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pile of horsepucky I'm gonna have to find another forum. Too much profanity here!! sorry bob. hate to see you go, enjoy talking with you
Please keep your future disgusting ejaculations to the realm of the bovine yield. I thought that was some reference to some sort of water polo lingo.  |
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 Some like to ride Fat boys, I think I'll stay with the fat lady |
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Titan
Member
Posts: 819
BikeLess
Lexington, SC
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2012, 03:51:39 PM » |
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a group of us were pulled over in riviera beach just north of here last Oct. the officer said our exhaust was too loud. he pulled out his meter and order us each to rev our bikes to 3000 rpms to he could get a reading. i advised my fellow riders to decline, sighting the 5th amendment provisions covering self incrimination. we we're all ticketed. as a group we appeared the following Wednesday in court as directed by the officer, the judge laughed and tossed all the tickets. the officer was lectured soundly concerning citizen's rights under the US constitution.
i believe that the 5th amendment gives you the right NOT to provide evidence against yourself in any criminal or civil action.
Good for you! I could understand the law enforcement side of that if the sound level could be measured, and found to be in violation, without any input from you. But I think it's completely asinine and unenforceable to require you to rev the engine to anything above idle. |
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czuch
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2012, 04:07:17 PM » |
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Well, this thread didnt take long to got to s$%^!
I agree its not right.
I'd just go stupid"er" and forget the pass word.
If they could figure Wake island had a water problem, they can get anything the want off your computer. probably without even turning it on. Its gonna get worse kids.
This will set a precidence and be an example.
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Aot of guys with burn marks,gnarly scars and funny twitches ask why I spend so much on safety gear
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Willow
Administrator
Member
Posts: 16859
Excessive comfort breeds weakness. PttP
Olathe, KS
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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2012, 04:13:12 PM » |
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If they could figure Wake island had a water problem, they can get anything the want off your computer. probably without even turning it on. Interestingly, in today's digital world encryption methods are available even to individuals that can virtually not be decoded without the key. |
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texaninsouthfl
Member
Posts: 441
Serving those who served us...
East Lake County, Florida
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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2012, 06:45:13 PM » |
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a group of us were pulled over in riviera beach just north of here last Oct. the officer said our exhaust was too loud. he pulled out his meter and order us each to rev our bikes to 3000 rpms to he could get a reading. i advised my fellow riders to decline, sighting the 5th amendment provisions covering self incrimination. we we're all ticketed. as a group we appeared the following Wednesday in court as directed by the officer, the judge laughed and tossed all the tickets. the officer was lectured soundly concerning citizen's rights under the US constitution.
i believe that the 5th amendment gives you the right NOT to provide evidence against yourself in any criminal or civil action.
Hey, whatchoo doin' all the way up in Riviera Beach, I thought you were down in Broward? I go to Tiki Bar in Riviera now and then. Actually met a guy with a new-to-him Valkyrie a few weeks ago. |
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tank_post142
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2012, 06:54:39 PM » |
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is that the guy who owns the photoshop?
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I got a rock VRCCDS0246 |
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texaninsouthfl
Member
Posts: 441
Serving those who served us...
East Lake County, Florida
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2012, 07:02:47 PM » |
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is that the guy who owns the photoshop?
No, the guy I met is a machinist... and of course I have forgotten his name. |
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2012, 10:11:31 PM » |
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Just stare at the judge and say........ I'm very sorry, but I have forgotten my encryption.
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Oss
Member
Posts: 12884
The lower Hudson Valley
Ossining NY Chapter Rep VRCCDS0141
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« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2012, 01:42:55 AM » |
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 kind of like a politician would brilliant Jess
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If you don't know where your going any road will take you there
George Harrison
When you come to the fork in the road, take it
Yogi Berra (Don't send it to me C.O.D.)
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junior
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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2012, 02:00:28 AM » |
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the squirrels are watching and ready to revolt  |
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