Dog population control

[Willow]

Okay, so here's the scenario:

My friend and I are running a semi-rural two lane at about 65, perhaps occasional spikes above, and a full grown German Shepherd wanders onto the road from the right.  My friend is on a Valkyrie Interstate and I'm riding in his shadow, slightly, ever so slightly, behind and on his right.  I am, incidentally, riding my beautiful, and purportedly rare, blue and white 2001 Valkyrie Standard.  My friend is an excellent rider, one of the best with whom I've ridden.  I'm in the top twenty-five percent, but closer to the bottom than the top of that range.  The dog appears to be on the high side of eighty pounds, his back well above the top of the front fender of a Valkyrie.

I notice the animal on the side of the road and chop the throttle to give the lead bike more room.  The canine wanders into the middle of the road and then stops, turning his head to watch our approach.  My friend grabs all the brake he's got and it looks as if it may not be enough. Twice the bike shudders and lurches to the right and twice the rider releases enough front brake to regain control.  Just as the impact appears imminent and unavoidable, the Shepherd sort of half hops, half skips to the left and saunters off the asphalt.

I'm not second guessing anyone's choices.  The situation ended favorably for all particpants and I believe that my friend, given his options, skill level, and visual input, did all the right things.

What I want to know is what the rest of us, given our skill levels, experiences, and dispositions believe we would have chosen to do.  The list is in the poll.  Please vote for one.       

[Daniel Meyer]

"Scream like a cheerleader on helium" 

[POPS 57]

I had a small deer do this to me with my wife on the back last summer. He came out of the tall weeds right in front of us. We were going around 30mph. I braked hard till the backend started to slide out. Let off and did the same thing again.  After the second brake i was squared up with him and ready to hit him. Missed him by inches. My wife was taking the motorcycle corse at the time. It turned out to be a great first hand lesson for her. We talked about why i braked and then led off. Also about if your going to hit do it straight on. Also if the target is larger it's time to lay the bike down and let the bike take the worse of it.

[Willow]

... Also if the target is larger it's time to lay the bike down and let the bike take the worse of it.

I was right with you until the last "Also".  You're going to have to explain to me how and when that makes sense.

[Black Pearl's Captain]

What color is this "Interstate"? We got the more important following bike was some weird off blue. (Who cares waht color the second bike is) (Is this a trick question).

Raymond

[Blackduck KS]

I would throtle up and hit the horn he shoulda been on a leash anyway.  

Sorry couldn`t resist

I think I would hit the brakes as best possible and the horn to try to make the inpack as less
danaging as possible to both of us if it couldn`t be avoided at all.

[..]

Also if the target is larger it's time to lay the bike down and let the bike take the worse of it.

Cut and paste from
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/dangerous_motorcycle_safety_myths/index.html

Myth 8: If You Are Going to Crash, Lay It Down

This line was developed by riders to explain why they ended up flat-side-down while trying to avoid a crash. They over-braked or otherwise lost control, then tried to explain the crash away as intentional and tried to make it sound like it wasn't a crash at all. Maybe motorcycle brakes once were so bad that you could stop better off your bike while sliding or tumbling. If so, that hasn't been true for decades. You can scrub off much more speed before and then be going slower at impact with effective braking than you will sliding down the road on your butt. And if you are still on the bike, you might get thrown over the car you collide with, avoiding an impact with your body. If you slide into a car while you are on the ground, you either have a hard stop against it or end up wedged under it. Remember that the phrase "I laid 'er down to avoid a crash" is an oxymoron, often repeated by some other kind of moron.

The only events where being on the ground might leave you better off are: 1) on an elevated roadway where going over the guardrail will cause you to fall a long way, or 2) in that situation you see occasionally in movies, where the motorcyclist slides under a semi trailer without touching it. That's a good trick if the truck is moving.

[R J]

If I can see an escape route, I'll do that.  Like brake hard and etc etc.

IF NO escape route, I'll square up on the target and hit full throttle and hit em broadside.........  99.9% of the time you will run over them instead of getting high centered so to speak....

I have hit several dogs in my riding years.   Largest one was a big arsed St Bernard, and it was almost a toss up.  He never got killed, but he should have been as they had to destroy him later.....  That one I did several tank swappers before I got her under control again.....  Never went down, but damn close...  I was on a CHP KZ1000 Kawasaki.

When we rode the Harley's, we always stopped, they didn't have enough power to run over a squirrel, or fast enough to not be able to avoid a collision.......

PS:  You never want to lay a bike down to avoid something, you is going to get hurt anyway if ya do, and they get away with maybe a little ding in a fender..

[DaveC]

"laying a motorcycle down" is really a low side wreck, caused by locking the rear wheel & not letting off.
If you let off, the motorcycle will violenty right itself & usually throw you over the handelbars. This is called a highside wreck.
Todays linked braking systems & disc brakes, have all but eliminated these wrecks.
In answer to the poll, i'd do everything possible to avoid a collision, but continue in a straight line toward the animal.
Why? Because if the dog would move, it would in all probability move in to your path.
happy trails,
the hobo

[Willow]

What color is this "Interstate"?  ... (Is this a trick question).  Raymond

1)  It was a beautiful two tone, not one of the plain black models.

2)  It was a tricky situation.  The question should be tricky.

 

[art]

laying it down is stupid use your brakes or throttle that is what there for in a situation like this.My dad was a firefighter in mass. a had a biker lay it down once behind a car an the exhaust pipe took a slug of brain out of his head an left him under the car with his head hanging from the pipe.not fun

[Big IV]

The best way to protect the biker/bike/riding partner is to avoid the dog and avoid the wreck. A dog that size isn't like thumping over a squirrel. A dog that stands higher than the fender is not something you want to hit.


I braked hard and then avoided just a little bit ago. On the ride home (really just a stop over before I head back to work) I had about the same scenario. Only I was riding alone, so I had more options. The first dog was easy to swerve. As I was avoiding the big white dog, two smaller dogs jumped out of the ditch aiming at me. I managed to avoid them all.

Luckily, dogs tend to run in straight lines and not be able to adjust very well.

The second rider (willow) did the right thing by backing off and giving the first rider room to ride.

[RedValk]

as i always said when teaching Safety classes...... brake, brake, brake....to the BITTER END. once you "lay it down".....you've given up ALL CONTROL....and are now at the mercy of 'chance'. Many times, if you will brake, brake, brake....to what looks like the end (impact)....many times....the object will JUST BARELY move out of your way....and/or....you will JUST stop before impact because of your properly executed panic stop skills! But to lay it down, means you have given up all control......... (eh, and ....just about all hope!!)

I don't know how many times i've heard folks WHO DID BRAKE TO THE APPARENT END....say "thought i was gonna' hit em'....but i just did come to a stop". Or at the very least...they were going so slow upon impact, there was only very minor damage.

on the other hand, i've heard plenty of horror stories from those that gave up control...and did the old "gave up all hope and laid her' down...........". (and just about zero positive coming from laying one down.......)

while i suppose you can NEVER SAY NEVER, i'd say 99.99999% of the time you should NOT lay a bike down. If you find yourself in one of those other .00001% situations, i suppose RELUCTANTLY you might lay one down? Nah............I'd just have to say never..........

Of course, nothing wrong with taking some other evasive manuevers too......in addition to braking!

[Probie (Scooter57)]

Well since I got the name of DOG KILLER at Cheaha  I just held the handle bars tight and straight and was slowing down, I wasn't going to stop, that dog was trying to bite Thumper in front of me and Two Tone Valk was behind me somewhere with 3 other bikes. I had slowed down to around 25 when I hit it. No I still didn't stop, didn't want to have to shoot it if it came after me.

Willow you know I had to put a picture here right?

     

[Master Blaster]

I look at laying the bike down the same way I look at flying.  If you are gonna crash, fly it in all the way.  The moment you give up and relinquish controll, your asking to die.  I am not going to bail either when crash is imminent.  If  I get myself in that position, I am gonna ride it all the way through.  Ive heard these jokers brag I laid her down, couldnt do anything else in a boastful manner.  I call BS, they are just trying to absolve themselves of any blame.   You have that heavy machine that outweighs you 3 times, use it to absorb as much of the impact as possible, and just maybe you will come out the other side intact.

[~ Timbrwolf]

....Is there an Identical dog leaving from the opposite direction in a station in Chicago ?



....if so....what time did he leave the station and what were the *Specials*....at Tony,s All Night Cadillac Burrito and Car Wash Stand ?  

[T.P.]

Does German Shepard taste like Chicken ?

[Willow]

Willow you know I had to put a picture here right?

What picture, Scott?

 

[solo1]

Braking hard is the answer.  If you're trying to avoid him at the last millisecond, you'll turn your front wheel and that woudn't work very well if you hit him then.

Talking about "laying it down" is a funny sentence.  While you might have less distance to fall,  I can't see how chrome, paint, and metal will come to a quicker stop than rubber with good brakes.

[fudgie]

Braking hard is the answer.  If you're trying to avoid him at the last millisecond, you'll turn your front wheel and that woudn't work very well if you hit him then.

Talking about "laying it down" is a funny sentence.  While you might have less distance to fall,  I can't see how chrome, paint, and metal will come to a quicker stop than rubber with good brakes.

Exactly solo1. Your gonna stop alot faster using the brakes then if you slide. I had some numbers on this from work but that was years ago. Huge difference from stopping to 'sliding' to a stop. I would tryed to stop and brace for impact.

[F6Mark]

Well, if a semi going the opposite direction jackknifed and swerved in front of you, maybe you could lay it down to slide under the trailer.
(Greetings from Mark in Maryland!  2000 Red/Blk Tourer)

[Duffy]

I was a few bikes behind Scooter57 on the Cheaha ride.  

I blew the horn and hoped for the best.  

And, of course, we were all braking at that point.. 

[smokey2255]

In the scenario given above I would of done just as your buddy did.
In the scenario where I actually hit and killed a dog, here is a link to the story
http://mcdarksiders.forumotion.com/general-discussion-f6/150-miles-to-reserve-184-to-push-i-killed-a-dog-my-ride-yesterday-t2677.htm

I did not have time to touch any brakes, I barely had time to twist the wick. I rolled on the throttle as hard as I could. After the fact I shut it down and commenced to picking my seat out of my azz.
See you out there
Smokey

[POPS 57]

Moron,Stupid & Joker. Nice bunch of people here. Its easy to pick apart things posted on these boards. I don't post much because of just these internet comments. I got into a bad one when i was 18. Hit a 64 ford broadside at around 40 mph. I locked the brakes untill the last second. Put it down just before impact i'm talking a foot or two. The tires,shocks and the bike then my legs in that order compressed. I walked away until the next day. I had blood clots in my lower legs that had to be drained. I always try to post on the boards as if the person was standing in front of me. I will take the high road and let you internet experts have the last words. Have at it boys pick away. 

[Stitch_in_La]

POPS 57 I think that would be one of the situations that a lay down  is warranted.  I think what they are referring to are the ones where people just lay it down and let the bike slide and crunch on its own and then they slide into the morass of twisted steel in an uncontrolled fashion.

Charles

[chrise2469]

... Also if the target is larger it's time to lay the bike down and let the bike take the worse of it.

I was right with you until the last "Also".  You're going to have to explain to me how and when that makes sense.

I agree 99% of the time that laying it down is not a good option.  But one real situation up here is moose.

I would slow down as much as possible and if I was likely to hit ( no swerve available), I would rather take my chances with Mr Asphalt then Mr Moose.  Maybe I could slide under the moose.  Its pretty rare to survive a bike moose collison.

[..]

Moron,Stupid & Joker. Nice bunch of people here. Its easy to pick apart things posted on these boards. I don't post much because of just these internet comments. I got into a bad one when i was 18. Hit a 64 ford broadside at around 40 mph. I locked the brakes untill the last second. Put it down just before impact i'm talking a foot or two. The tires,shocks and the bike then my legs in that order compressed. I walked away until the next day. I had blood clots in my lower legs that had to be drained. I always try to post on the boards as if the person was standing in front of me. I will take the high road and let you internet experts have the last words. Have at it boys pick away. 

Sounds to me that you did the right thing by staying in control until the last moment.

[Chrisj CMA]

I killed a dog with my Valkyrie last year, it was half the size of the dog in this scenario.  What I did was stiff straightline braking until it seemed obvious I was going to strike the animal.  Was in 5th but as I was braking I made it down to third gear and 10-15mph.  With maybe 25 feet before impact I gave her the gas and impacted the dog at its neck accelerating through maybe 35mph.  The dog went down FAST and the rear tire thumped its neck a millisecond after the first.  The bike barely wiggled it was steady throughout. 

I think I could have done the same with a slightly larger dog but with Willows I probably would have stayed on the brakes and hoped if I had to hit it at the slowest speed possible that I would not sustain injury or much damage.

I did not use the horn.  Im not sure I would want to.....not sure what the professionals say here, but Im thinking horns make animals stop, not go.......I could be wrong, but I didnt use the horn simply because I was concentrating on :
-NOT SWERVING
-CONTROLLED BRAKING and DOWNSHIFTING
-WATCHING THE TARGET

In my case (40ish lb dog) there was no damage to my bike or me, just one very dead dog.  In Willows case no impact means everyone wins.  The bottom line for any situation is...there is going to be an outcome and you may get an opportunity to have an effect on that outcome.  Make your best decision and DO IT....if you walk away it was successful......but be informed as to what the correct move is, most times its not a thought process its a reaction.......quick reactions are good but not so good if you do the wrong thing quickly.  The effect you can have on the outcome is to make it worse too ya know.

Number one thing to concentrate on is keep it straight and level, DONT SWERVE to avoid, this is suicide.  Second its always good to be going slower when the possibility of hitting something big presents itself.  Lastly....If its a small enough animal (in my case 40-50 lb dog) to go over, well, be in the right gear, be on the gas and be serious about launching through it.  That my friends is a stressful moment when you decide to abandon braking and choose to accelerate into a living animal, best to be sure you  have all your ducks in a row.

Ride safe

[solo1]

Thinking about Pops 57 last post, I was disappointed that this thread evidently got under his skin.

Thinking about it, I thought back to 1947, I remember that I was riding my '35 Harley in town and I encountered a classic left turner into my path.  I was 19 at the time, dumb, and not aware of my surroundings.  Also, since I only had a rear crappy drum brake, I felt that I had no choice but to "lay her down"  I leaned over, turned the handlebars, hit the rear brake, and tried to put it down but the rear brake wouldn't slide.  I ended up missing the car, but, since I was leaned over, I couldn't reach the suicide clutch with my left foot, as the clutch partially reingaged ( that was why it was called a suicide clutch)  I ended up hopping along with my right foot on the ground as the bike continued leaned over.  The engine didn't stall because the clutch wasn't fully engaged.  I went down but no harm done. Looking back, that must've been a sight.

I bring this up only to prove a point that maybe there are places where laying it down is the better choice. I cetainly would've T boned this left turner if I had tried to stop with s... for brakes.

I always learn something from these threads, just as Willow intended.  There's lots of experience here.

Wayne

[Chrisj CMA]

AMEN Solo 1

There is no reason to get ticked off on this board......Its better to learn from the wealth of experience here (as you said) and try to spit out the bones.....try,try try........I fail sometimes 

Hey your signature says old age is just a number.......last time I was in ER they asked me about the pain from 1-10.......ya old age is just a number but unfortunately that number is sometimes on the pain scale....... 

[Willow]

Thinking about Pops 57 last post, I was disappointed that this thread evidently got under his skin.

I also, Wayne. 

I think the situation that Pops57 described was probably, as was yours, in a day when bikes were not equiped with the brakes that they have today.  I once was an advocate of putting the bike on the ground if need be.  I believe they used to even teach the correct method for doing that.

Most of the reasons for using that method have gone away with modern bike brakes and certainly with the dual disk front on the Valkyrie.  My uneducated guess would be that a Valkyrie on its side would likely high side and sling shot you into the obstacle anyway.  I don't think I would do it.

At any rate, I'm ready to accept the observations that broadsiding a moose or sliding under a freighter may be two of the diminishing applications for putting the bike on the ground.

I'm really not into name calling (usually) and Pops57's point is well taken.  My opinion is not necessarily any better than anyone else's, but if someone gives me reason to think about what I think then it's a good thing.

Here's my take on the poll.

Most folks are right where I am, that is braking in a straight line but normally not swerving to avoid animals.

I'm a bit disappointed that such a high percentage selected doing everything possible to avoid contact.  Perhaps they just didn't interpret the phrase in the same manner as did I.  That option, unfortunately, is likely the natural reaction and results in the highest risk of injury or death to the rider. (mho, only)

Jeff's point is good.  We have to think about what we're going to do and rehearse that plan of action so that it will be our choice when panic takes over.  If we do not, we will do what comes naturally, and, on two wheels, that's oftimes not the best course.

You all be safe.

Next week we may talk about what we'll do when rounding a curve and encountering the unexpected bovine.

 

[Jabba]

One of the things I note is that a common theme is to accelerate thru the actual impact, in the dog scenario.  I agree with that.  Stop if you can... but once you are certain that the collision is going to happen, I think you're a lot less likely to lose control if you're accellerating at the point of actual impact.

I learned as a dirt biker... "when in doubt... gas it!"

It applies less on a street bike than in the dirt, but it's still appropriate IMO in this case.

I also agree with the sentiment that you should keep riding till the bitter end.  It applies to driving too.   Too many people panic, stand on the brakes and quite driving.  Keep driving.  Even if you're flipping, you might have the opportunity to change SOMETHING evertually.

Jabba

[Scott in Ok]

Here's what I learned from the experience, since I was the mystery rider in Willow's scenario.

1.  You can never be alert enough while riding a motorcycle.  I was alert to my surroundings, but in my memory of the situation, not alert enough.  I remember thinking, I'm not ready for this, and my whole body was playing catchup to my brain.  I know for a fact that if I would have had my feet on the highway pegs at that moment it would have been a very bad crash.  I love the highway pegs, and use them often but they can leave you unprepared for a panic stop.  I cringe when I see riders all stretched out on the highway pegs on populated roads/streets where other vehicles or animals can dart out in front of you. (I also cringe when I see them doing that on tight twisty roads) 

2.  Practicing panic/emergency stops pays off, and its worth the time taken to do so.  I practice it, and you should too.  In this situation I was able to apply full brakes to the point that the front end started to shudder/wobble, let off, and then repeating the full brakes to the same point again.  Never did I break traction, or loose control.  I'm not bragging about this. I'm just saying that I've practiced this many, many times and it pays off when that emergency situation requires action immediately. 

I also have a few comments, all my opinion(and worth what you payed for it), based on other comments in this thread.  Unless you just bail off the bike, I don't think anyone can "lay it down" intentionally.  My interpretation of "I had to lay it down" reads like this:  I hit the rear brakes so hard that the rear end slid out from under me and I went down.  I just don't think that you have enough time to think, make a decision, hit the rear brake only, slide out the rear end, and lay it down.  Things happen to fast.  The result might be the same, but the reality is you either didn't have enough time to react(very real scenario), or you really need to practice your emergency stops/braking technique.  That rear brake compliments the front, not the other way around.

Oh, and if you think you can go into emergency stop mode with full brakes applied to the very extreme, keep the bike under control...and then at the same time, toot the horn...think again.   Ain't gonna happen.

Incidentally, I voted Brake hard, only in a straight line. And for what its worth, I had almost the exact same thing happen to me a few years ago on my V-Strom, only with a deer.  In that situation, I did the exact same thing only I did hit the deer.  But by the time I did, I had shed enough speed that the impact hurt the bike, and not me.  I also kept the bike upright the whole time.

-Scott

[RedValk]

yes....WITH NO INTENTION OF OFFENDING ANY FOLKS OF ANY RELIGIOUS DENOMINATION....every time i hear the Carrie Underwood song (i think it is her...) "Jesus Take the Wheel"...i think what terrible advice that would be.....to give up and just "let go of the wheel"....or....likewise...."lay your bike down".

me, I'm NEVER GIVING UP CONTROL. If i'm riding, driving....no matter...I'm going to ATTEMPT to remain in control...and do everything i can to avoid impact...to the BITTER END. I'm never going to "give up and let a Supreme Being take over". I'm going to fight it..............to the BITTER END.

a large percentage of the time, i'm going to surprise myself (ok, not really.....i actually EXPECT to get out of harm's way in the bitter end........)....and actually avoid impact at the LAST second.

But IF/WHEN that day comes i can't avoid impact...i'm going to be going just as SLOW as i possibly can. Or at the LAST second...with the time i "bought" braking hard...i may see a way to avoid said collision!

My goal being of course to avoid the collision. Secondary goal, to hit it so slowly, it's a "non-event".

That's my plan and i'm sticking to it...and have for 35+ years now. Along with the rest of the plan....be aware, drive defensively, ride situationaly (always analyzing your environment, chaning lane positions as needed  for maximum visibility)....etc.....etc.

i once thought i was going to hit a deer....at hiway speed....Sherry and some Valk friends were with me (i was on the Valk). It ran out in the road in front of me....then FROZE! i laid on both brakes to the point of just losing control. i was ALMOST at a stop.....the deer by now DESPERATELY trying to run....but its hoofs couldn't get traction (I could hear them hitting the pavement!!). As i was about to impact....at the LAST SECOND....she got enough traction (the deer....)....that she JUST got far enough away i JUST missed her. Bought enough time..............

the pucker factor was incredible    i asked my friends if they could hear those hoofs frantically pounding the pavement with no traction? they said NO...all we heard was YOUR .....eh........posterior end....puckering up............

[Bladedog]

This question was posed to us students at the recent California MSF course I attended.  Actually it was posed with the situation as the typical stupid dog who thinks a 750-lb bike is a potential chew toy and gets agressive.  Slow down, then speed up (to change/avoid the point of intercept with the animal) was the "official" answer.  However, the very experienced Air Force sergeant who was teaching the class added, half-seriously, "worse comes to worse, rise up off the seat, roll on throttle".

Me, I'd do my best to brake hard in a straight line while rapid-firing the horn (gotta get me a Rivco or Stebel setup!).

[NiteRiderF6]

I voted for brake hard and in a straight line.... hopefully!

I just took a course where this was discussed in detail.... well, last year....

While opinions vary on "what to do" when suddenly confronted with an animal or a sniper (automobile) darting into your path... often times this appearance is sudden and this is when instincts are needed and warranted. Scott is correct as is Willow that emergency (power) stops on a bike have to be practiced and often.

Hard braking on a two wheeled hinged vehicle (motorcycle) can only occur in a straight line... safely.... if you are confronted with the scenario above, if you have some time, the best action to take is the premeditated one..... brake as hard as possible with both front and rear brakes without losing traction... if you feel one brake locking the wheel, just as Scott described, quickly release and reapply the brake..... shave off as much speed as possible before impact... have it in your head before hand and practice it often.... If you feel that swerving will help your situation, then release BOTH brakes, do the swerve, then get back on both brakes again.... as hard as possible.... Always be watching your "six" because sometimes killing a dog or other small animal could be better than taking a 4,000 pound enema.

All of the above may need to occur in a few seconds.... if you are successful. I have dodged a few animals and I have hit everything from turtles to possums to a small dog.... When it's them or your losing control... it's just no contest.

You could lose control anyway, but do everything in your power to maintain control, because once that's gone you don't have a lot of options except kissing the pavement and sliding to a stop, which ain't the choice I want. Ride it in.... Stay in control.... that's my philosophy... if possible. If not, well; I paid my money and I'll take my chances with it. Practice, practice, practice your emergency stopping.... it will be more natural when and if you ever need it.... and you will. Ride Safely!