Global Gun Registration…What?

[rmrc51]

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/05/07/global-gun-registrationwhat/

I'm fuming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bagger John - #3785]

Sorry...I lost all of mine in a tragic boating accident.

[Doc Moose]

Gave mine away, got too heavy to carry.

[FLAVALK]

The dog ate mine 

[Strong Eagle]

Hey!  Nothing like an extremist reaction to a proposed piece of legislation that is trying to solve a serious problem.

And nothing like a sensationalistic (and false) headline to cause the chicken hawks to start squawking and running wildly.

More than 12,000 pistols, rifles, and semi-automatic weapons were taken from the Mexican drug cartels last year.  90 percent of them came from Texas and Arizona.  Most of them were legally purchased at gun shows where there is virtually no requirement for any kind of check.  The drug gangs pay people to go from shop to shop, from show to show, buying weapons... and they never get caught because there is no way to track.

And it's not only Mexican drug cartels... loose US gun laws permit many groups, including terrorist groups, to buy large amounts of weapons and ammunition.  It permits street gangs in all of our major cities to have firepower equal to or greater than our police... just witness the armor piercing bullets that are freely available and make a cop's vest nearly worthless.

Don't get me wrong... I am a firm believer in the second amendment... and it means exactly what it says... the PEOPLE have the right to bear arms.

But, when are we going to get some common sense in this discussion?  The US is arming the drug cartels, all the way into South America because we check almost nothing.

So, I ask you... as a responsible citizen who wishes to keep your right to bear arms... what would you do to stop the fact that many tens of thousands of weapons leak out of this country into Mexico alone?  What would YOU do to stop the flow of arms to people, who unlike you, intend to use them to kill other people?

Cheers.

[Chrisj CMA]

Mr Eagle.......You seem to be ready to chastise folks when they get facts wrong, well you are just like Hillary Clinton when you say 90% of the guns they captured came from The United States.  It has been proved that is a false statistic.  Of the guns they confiscated in the time frame you are talking about...most of the guns couldnt be traced...of the ones they could trace (find registrations for) many did originate here, but no where near 90% yet you liberal, appologizers for anything someone accuses America for want to hold onto is this false notion that if we are allowed to have freedom of gun ownership, that this in some way feeds the drug war.  It is already illegal to sell (traffic) guns and illegal to sell ship them at all unless you are a gun dealer.  Its just like the immigration problem....all the government has to do is enforce the laws we already have, and abide by the CONSTITUTION......but see thats not what they want.  They want all the guns.

Oh, I had a really successful garage sale and all the guns were sold to strangers and I didnt keep any records

[3fan4life]

The following is the NRA's Official response to the proposed treaty:


Statement By NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre and NRA Chief Lobbyist Chris Cox Regarding the Organization of American States Treaty on Firearms Trafficking


Thursday, April 16, 2009


The NRA is well aware of the proposed Organization of American States treaty on firearms trafficking, known by its Spanish initials as CIFTA. The NRA monitored the development of this treaty from its earliest days, but contrary to news reports today, the NRA did not "participate" at the meeting where the treaty was approved.

The treaty does include language suggesting that it is not intended to restrict "lawful ownership and use" of firearms . Despite those words, the NRA knows that anti-gun advocates will still try to use this treaty to attack gun ownership in the U.S. Therefore, the NRA will continue to vigorously oppose any international effort to restrict the constitutional rights of law-abiding American gun owners.

The bottom line here is, if the NRA is against it, So Am I.


Maybe some of the comments made by by the people in the link are "knee jerk" reactions.

But, make no mistake about it the Second Amendment is under attack.

Mr. Obama may say that he doesn't want to take the Second Amendment away from the people.  But, the record of his party says differently.  

His own past actions speak differently.

And actions speak louder than words.


Instead of making treaties and passing new laws, why not enforce laws that we already have?

"Straw" purchases for guns are illegal.  The enforcement of these laws would prevent illegals from paying others to purchase guns for them.

It is illegal to conceal a cash of weapons and take them across the border.

Better and Stronger Border Security would do more to prevent this than a Treaty.


And if you believe that a treaty will "magically" fix all problems, Ask any Native American how well they work.  



 

[RedValk]

One of these days.....if he ever comes back to THIS country....I'd like to meet this "Strong Eagle". Then, i'll say what i have to say....face to face.....man to man.......

Until that day..................

[3fan4life]

One of these days.....if he ever comes back to THIS country....I'd like to meet this "Strong Eagle". Then, i'll say what i have to say....face to face.....man to man.......

Until that day..................

You May have to take a number and get in line

[MAD6Gun]

Typical liberal response Eagle. 90% huh. I have heard this number too many times. I have seen pictures of some of the weapons confiscated from these terrorist and  drug traffickers. In those picture I see grenades,grenade  launchers,RPGs and body armor.  Now Mr Eagle you tell me where in this country that a law abiding citizen can purchase such weapons. HMMMM. I have been to many gun shows and  stores and have never seen these types of weapons for sale. You know why? Because they are ILLEGAL.
  If the criminals in Mexico are getting these types of weapons they are not coming from law abiding citizens in the US. Oh and why is it our "friends" in Mexico wont show the records on the confiscated guns to the ATF so they can see if they came from the US. Probable because they didn't and that would prove it. Bottom line is the crime in Mexico is not the law abiding citizens of America's fault. It is the fault of the corrupt Mexican government and the illegal trade of the poisons they push, and no amount of "sensible" gun control is going to stop it.....

[Bagger John - #3785]

Seems to me that Senor Obama is attempting to apply a Band-Aid to the "problem" and won't address the root cause...which is the demand for the drugs.

No demand = no profit = no market = no gangs.

Simple.

A suggestion for tonight's White House Theater film might be "Clear and Present Danger".

/out

[fudgie]

Hey!  Nothing like an extremist reaction to a proposed piece of legislation that is trying to solve a serious problem.

And nothing like a sensationalistic (and false) headline to cause the chicken hawks to start squawking and running wildly.

More than 12,000 pistols, rifles, and semi-automatic weapons were taken from the Mexican drug cartels last year.  90 percent of them came from Texas and Arizona.  Most of them were legally purchased at gun shows where there is virtually no requirement for any kind of check.  The drug gangs pay people to go from shop to shop, from show to show, buying weapons... and they never get caught because there is no way to track.

And it's not only Mexican drug cartels... loose US gun laws permit many groups, including terrorist groups, to buy large amounts of weapons and ammunition.  It permits street gangs in all of our major cities to have firepower equal to or greater than our police... just witness the armor piercing bullets that are freely available and make a cop's vest nearly worthless.

Don't get me wrong... I am a firm believer in the second amendment... and it means exactly what it says... the PEOPLE have the right to bear arms.

But, when are we going to get some common sense in this discussion?  The US is arming the drug cartels, all the way into South America because we check almost nothing.

So, I ask you... as a responsible citizen who wishes to keep your right to bear arms... what would you do to stop the fact that many tens of thousands of weapons leak out of this country into Mexico alone?  What would YOU do to stop the flow of arms to people, who unlike you, intend to use them to kill other people?

Cheers.

Like you said 'they were purchased leagally'. Whats wrong with that? Its better then illeagal ain't it? If they kill in Mexico big whoop to me. At least i'll be able to protect myself when I want. What they do on there home ground is no concern of mine till it comes home. As far as a bullet proof vest its only protects 36% BSA, body surface area and they can still get shot in the head. I know some State troppers here that don't wear them.

[Trynt]

Hey!  Nothing like an extremist reaction to a proposed piece of legislation that is trying to solve a serious problem.

And nothing like a sensationalistic (and false) headline to cause the chicken hawks to start squawking and running wildly.

More than 12,000 pistols, rifles, and semi-automatic weapons were taken from the Mexican drug cartels last year.  90 percent of them came from Texas and Arizona.  Most of them were legally purchased at gun shows where there is virtually no requirement for any kind of check.  The drug gangs pay people to go from shop to shop, from show to show, buying weapons... and they never get caught because there is no way to track.

And it's not only Mexican drug cartels... loose US gun laws permit many groups, including terrorist groups, to buy large amounts of weapons and ammunition.  It permits street gangs in all of our major cities to have firepower equal to or greater than our police... just witness the armor piercing bullets that are freely available and make a cop's vest nearly worthless.

Don't get me wrong... I am a firm believer in the second amendment... and it means exactly what it says... the PEOPLE have the right to bear arms.

But, when are we going to get some common sense in this discussion?  The US is arming the drug cartels, all the way into South America because we check almost nothing.

So, I ask you... as a responsible citizen who wishes to keep your right to bear arms... what would you do to stop the fact that many tens of thousands of weapons leak out of this country into Mexico alone?  What would YOU do to stop the flow of arms to people, who unlike you, intend to use them to kill other people?

Cheers.

On June 26, 2008 the Supreme Court held that the phrase, “ the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed” . . . .  “is controlling and refers to a pre-existing right of individuals to possess and carry personal weapons for self-defense and intrinsically for defense against tyranny.” 

When the second amendment was written the flint lock was the state-of-the-art firearm, it was the best available weapon for “self-defense and defense against tyranny” and under the second amendment civilians were entitled to them.  Today the civilian assault rifle (semi automatic) is not quite state of the art, but it is close.


If one wants to insure that ammunition is incapable of penetrating a police vest, it would be necessary to eliminate almost all center fire rifles and those handguns larger than 9mm. “Armor piercing” and “cop killer” bullets are terms used by the uninformed or those wishing to spin the debate. Also, although  full metal jacked  ammo may more easily defeat a vest, it  is judged to be more humane than soft nose or hollow point.

Its seems you only  support the second amendment if it pertains to firearms and ammunition that are relatively  ineffective.

 The fact that “Assault Weapons” are illegal in Mexico illustrates the ineffectiveness of gun laws.  Criminals simply ignore them while ordinary citizens are disarmed. If our government had control of the southern border the whole drugs for weapons problem would be greatly reduced  (Just try to get a hand gun into Canada sometime and see how that goes). For political reason’s our government has ignored the border problem until it has become a crisis.
       
Having a firearm for protection is like having fire insurance. It is extremely likely you will never, have to use it, but its vital under certain circumstances.   If you want  to prostrate yourself on the alter of liberalism and place your  ultimate safety and liberty in the hands of the same government that oversees our financial institutions and protects our southern border, that is his choice.  It is  not mine.

[Strong Eagle]

Mr Eagle.......You seem to be ready to chastise folks when they get facts wrong, well you are just like Hillary Clinton when you say 90% of the guns they captured came from The United States.  It has been proved that is a false statistic.  Of the guns they confiscated in the time frame you are talking about...most of the guns couldnt be traced...of the ones they could trace (find registrations for) many did originate here, but no where near 90% yet you liberal, appologizers for anything someone accuses America for want to hold onto is this false notion that if we are allowed to have freedom of gun ownership, that this in some way feeds the drug war.  It is already illegal to sell (traffic) guns and illegal to sell ship them at all unless you are a gun dealer.  Its just like the immigration problem....all the government has to do is enforce the laws we already have, and abide by the CONSTITUTION......but see thats not what they want.  They want all the guns.

Oh, I had a really successful garage sale and all the guns were sold to strangers and I didnt keep any records

I didn't 'chastise' anyone.  I asked a few questions.  The statistic is not false and I challenge you for your information source.  And the fact that you sold guns with nor records proves the point.

[Chrisj CMA]

LOLOLOL.....that was a joke dude......sorry you thought Id really sell all my guns at a garage sale.......BUT, not really a joke, because all I have to tell the person(s) knocking on my door looking for guns is that I sold them at a garage sale with no records, and its totally legal! nothing anyone can do about it!

Im not going to argue the source of the information.......pay attention to whats happening......your girl Hillary was getting slammed over and over a while back for using the "facts" you espouse too.....because they are incorrect.........

What Mexico does with guns they get from their corrupt partners in south america, Russia and America is not our fault.

[Bagger John - #3785]

What Mexico does with guns they get from their corrupt partners in south america, Russia and America is not our fault.

Hugo Chavez recently inked a deal with the Kalashnikov factory which enables his country to produce their own licensed, localized versions of Uncle Anatoliy's designs. Wonder where some of them are going to end up?  ???

[Psychotic Bovine]

Poor Strong Eagle.  Only believes what CNN, NBC, and the rest tell him
Here is the source:
What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

"Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.


-------------

ok, ok, I can already hear Mr. Eagle saying, "but that's Fox News, not real news, they hate Obama, they'll say anything. They are part of the right-wing conspiracy, blah blah blah, and blah."

ok, with that in mind, this comes from Factcheck.org:
In a joint statement presented to the Senate Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Crimes and Drugs, ATF Assistant Director for Field Operations William Hoover and Anthony Placido, assistant administrator of intelligence with the Drug Enforcement Administration, clarified that the 90 percent figure is true of guns that were submitted and could be traced:

Hoover and Placido, March 17, 2009: Firearms are routinely being transported from the U.S. into Mexico in violation of both U.S. and Mexican law. In fact, according to ATF’s National Tracing Center, 90 percent of the weapons that could be traced were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S.

And Mexico recovers a lot more guns than it submits to the U.S. In December 2008, Mexican Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora put the number of recovered crime weapons in the country over the past two years at nearly 29,000, according to USA Today. And figures given by ATF make clear that the agency doesn't trace nearly all of those.

According to ATF, Mexico submitted 7,743 firearms for tracing in fiscal year 2008 (which ended Oct. 1) and 3,312 guns in fiscal 2007. That adds up to a fraction of the two-year total given by Mexico's attorney general. He may be referring to a slightly different 24-month period, but that can't account for more than a part of the discrepancy. The number is growing, and already this year, Mexico has submitted more than 7,500 guns for tracing, according to ATF. But even if all those guns are added in, the total submitted for tracing since the start of fiscal 2007 doesn't come close to the 29,000 figure that Mexico says it has recovered.

and their sources?
these:
Statement of William Newell before the U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Appropriations Subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science and Related Agencies, March 24, 2009.

Transcript: "Joint press conference with President Barack Obama
and President Felipe Calderón of Mexico"  The White House 16 Apr 2009.

Statement of William Hoover and Anthony Placido before the U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary Subcommittee on Crimes and Drugs concerning Law Enforcement Responses to Mexican Drug Cartels, 17 March 2009.

Statement of William Hoover before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere, 7 Feb. 2008.

Leinwand, Donna. "Authorities try to keep guns from drug cartels." USA Today, 11 Dec. 2008.

Transcript. "CBS 'Early Show' Interview with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton." Federal News Service, 26 March 2009.

Transcript. "NBC 'Today' Interview with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton." Federal News Service, 26 March 2009.

Panel I of a Joint Hearing of the Crimes and Drugs Subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Commitee and the Senate Caucus on International Narcotics Control on the subject of Law Enforcement Responses to Mexican Drug Cartels, 17 March 2009.

"U.S., Mexican Officials Meet On Border Security." National Public Radio, 3 April 2009.

Editorial. "Obama's bogus gun statistics." Washington Times, 14 April 2009.

Question and Answer Session with George Grayson. "Mexico: Dealing With Drug Violence," washingtonpost.com, 16 April 2009

--------------------


Keep choking those "facts" down, Strong Eagle, you are a credit to the main-stream media's programming machine.  Yeah, I was able to walk right into a gun store and got a full-auto ak, a russian RPG, several boxes of HE and frag grenades, and an under-barrel grenade launcher for the ak.  complete with WP and AP grenades.
See?  I made that up, just like the statistic of the 90 percent was made up.

Game, set, and match.
Psychotic Bovine for the win!!!!!

btw, this is my idea of a strong eagle:

[doubletee]

Mr Eagle.......You seem to be ready to chastise folks when they get facts wrong, well you are just like Hillary Clinton when you say 90% of the guns they captured came from The United States.  It has been proved that is a false statistic.  Of the guns they confiscated in the time frame you are talking about...most of the guns couldnt be traced...of the ones they could trace (find registrations for) many did originate here, but no where near 90% yet you liberal, appologizers for anything someone accuses America for want to hold onto is this false notion that if we are allowed to have freedom of gun ownership, that this in some way feeds the drug war.  It is already illegal to sell (traffic) guns and illegal to sell ship them at all unless you are a gun dealer.  Its just like the immigration problem....all the government has to do is enforce the laws we already have, and abide by the CONSTITUTION......but see thats not what they want.  They want all the guns.

Oh, I had a really successful garage sale and all the guns were sold to strangers and I didnt keep any records

I didn't 'chastise' anyone.  I asked a few questions.  The statistic is not false and I challenge you for your information source.  And the fact that you sold guns with nor records proves the point.

Here are a couple of sources:

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46080

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/04/02/myth-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/

[Serk]

The simple fact here that isn't being acknowledged is that the bad guys in all this are the Mexican drug cartels...

What do they do for a living? They SMUGGLE ILLEGAL goods. That's what they do. That's their bread and butter, getting things that are illegal to places they shouldn't be.

Even if Pelosi had her grandest dream and all of America was immediately disarmed (Except for her personal bodyguards, of course), does anyone think that would stop the PROFESSIONAL SMUGGLERS in Mexico from getting anything they want???

[Bagger John - #3785]

Even if Pelosi had her grandest dream and all of America was immediately disarmed (Except for her personal bodyguards, of course), does anyone think that would stop the PROFESSIONAL SMUGGLERS in Mexico from getting anything they want???

See my earlier post re: Hugo Chavez...

[doubletee]

The simple fact here that isn't being acknowledged is that the bad guys in all this are the Mexican drug cartels...

What do they do for a living? They SMUGGLE ILLEGAL goods. That's what they do. That's their bread and butter, getting things that are illegal to places they shouldn't be.

Even if Pelosi had her grandest dream and all of America was immediately disarmed (Except for her personal bodyguards, of course), does anyone think that would stop the PROFESSIONAL SMUGGLERS in Mexico from getting anything they want???

Exactly! It's a tired cliche, but when guns are illegal, only criminals will have guns. Heck, some drugs are illegal, but I'll bet dollars to donuts I can go to selected street corners and buy them easily, illegally.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Few things make me feel better about myself than being called an extremist by the "freedom haters". Thanks Mr. strong eagle, I was having a crappy day till now

As much as I hate to match wits with the ill informed I have to ask a few questions. If the problem is caused by the US why isn't the problem worse here than in Mexico? One reason is because your 90% figure is wrong. 90% of the traced firearms is correct if I remember right. However, only a small percentage of the firearms found there are traceable to us. They don't try to trace the full-autos, the RPGs, the grenade launchers nor the firearms which don't have serial numbers because it's obvious they didn't come from the USA. They only try to trace the firearms which they can see probably came from here, of those 90% actually did.

The main reason we don't have the same degree of problem here is because our citizens are allowed the means to self defense. The whole problem down there shows what we have always known.

If you outlaw firearms, only outlaws will have firearms.

If we would stop the illegals from getting into our country, it would stop them from carrying these firearms out of the US wouldn't it?

And finally, just as prohibition created the mafia, drug laws created the drug cartels. If we decriminalized marijuana the drug cartels would lose much of their money and power.

When trying to solve most any problem, in my world more freedom, not less in nearly always the way to go.

[Clark]

Seems to me that Senor Obama is attempting to apply a Band-Aid to the "problem" and won't address the root cause...which is the demand for the drugs.

No demand = no profit = no market = no gangs.

Simple.

A suggestion for tonight's White House Theater film might be "Clear and Present Danger".

/out
[/quoteYOU GUYS ARE ALL MISSIN THE POINT...ITS ALL GEORGE BUSHES FAULT

[sugerbear]

or,,,,,,,, how bout this.  when south and central america starts controlling their citizens from crossing country lines illegally, then, and only then we'll contol the guns that go there.
now go ahead and tear it apart.

[Duffy]

Now aren't y'all glad Strong Eagle is back on the board?  Otherwise, this would be a boring a$$-kissing session of all our gun lovers. 

Anyway, in answer to Strong Eagle's question:

"So, I ask you... as a responsible citizen who wishes to keep your right to bear arms... what would you do to stop the fact that many tens of thousands of weapons leak out of this country into Mexico alone?  What would YOU do to stop the flow of arms to people, who unlike you, intend to use them to kill other people?"

my response is: Close the freakin border!!   

As I have said before, the American people will not let Obama or anyone else take away the second amendment. I think you all have made that clear. 

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Now aren't y'all glad Strong Eagle is back on the board?  Otherwise, this would be a boring a$$-kissing session of all our gun lovers. 

Anyway, in answer to Strong Eagle's question:

"So, I ask you... as a responsible citizen who wishes to keep your right to bear arms... what would you do to stop the fact that many tens of thousands of weapons leak out of this country into Mexico alone?  What would YOU do to stop the flow of arms to people, who unlike you, intend to use them to kill other people?"

my response is: Close the freakin border!!   

As I have said before, the American people will not let Obama or anyone else take away the second amendment. I think you all have made that clear. 

I think your right on all counts Duffy. 

[Brad]

Anyway, in answer to Strong Eagle's question:

"So, I ask you... as a responsible citizen who wishes to keep your right to bear arms... what would you do to stop the fact that many tens of thousands of weapons leak out of this country into Mexico alone?  What would YOU do to stop the flow of arms to people, who unlike you, intend to use them to kill other people?"

my response is: Close the freakin border!!   

As I have said before, the American people will not let Obama or anyone else take away the second amendment. I think you all have made that clear. 

Amen to that.  Look at the effort and manpower that we use to secure the border between the two Koreas.  We need to do the same for our own country and people.

[PAVALKER]

This needs a bump to the top.......

I have some "bird shot" shells for my shotguns that I need to try out......   

[FLAVALK]

Please don't waste your time. All liberals hate facts and ignore them every chance they get.

BTW, good job on the research! 

Poor Strong Eagle.  Only believes what CNN, NBC, and the rest tell him
Here is the source:
What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S.".......