Jets for Dummies. poor idle and popping fix, New Video!

[F6BANGER]

Are you getting a vacuum gauge to sync the carbs? The best kind is a 6 gauge vacuum gauge. when you adjust one they all move. I dont know why this happens, it just does. Try and find someone who will let you borrow it or make one your self. Seems there is plans somewhere in shoptalk or somewhere in here.   do a search.

Maybe someone will chime in.

[whitestroke]

That would be great if someone has one I could borrow in L.A./So. Cal. , otherwise I will be making one.   Seems like if the sync is the problem one gauge could be a nightmare if carbs are so far off. It seems it would be easier with a few gauges?

[whitestroke]

Figured I'd try syncing carbs by the heat coming out of exhaust 6 into 6, I can feel each cylinders exhaust separately.  Just to see if this sync thing is my problem.

I have 4 pipes blowing hot exhaust and 2 blowing cold exhaust, #3 nonadjustable is cold.


#1.....I turned the sync screws on the 4 pipes blowing hot exhaust in 1 turn, this lowered  the idle until it died.
#2.....I then adjusted the idle knob till I got back to 900rpm's, approximately 1 turn.

not much difference in the 2 cold cyclinders that I haven't touched the sync screws on., so I did this 2 more times.  So now screws are turned in 3 complete times on the 4 hot cylinders.

Seems like 1 of the cold cyclinders is a little warmer now, but #3 is still cold.

Bike seems to run about the same, but will go for a longer ride tomorrow.

Should I continue on with this tomorrow or is 3 turns of the sync screws getting crazy?

Is my logic flawed i.e. turning the hot cylinders sync down till the cold cylinders work hard enough to generate heat also?

[salty1]

Good morning whitestroke! I really don't think your seat of the pants approach is going to pay off.  You better get a manometer system or set of gauges. The differences your trying to detect are much finer than the heat sensing test your performing. Synchronization needs to take place at normal operating temperature and if you still have two cool exhaust emissions there maybe more than a synch problem.    What other cylinder seems to be running cooler than the others besides number 3?

[whitestroke]

Good morning whitestroke! I really don't think your seat of the pants approach is going to pay off.  You better get a manometer system or set of gauges. The differences your trying to detect are much finer than the heat sensing test your performing. Synchronization needs to take place at normal operating temperature and if you still have two cool exhaust emissions there maybe more than a synch problem.    What other cylinder seems to be running cooler than the others besides number 3?

Top of the morning to you Salty;

The other cold cylinder is #2(front left) and #3(middle right).... Any thing they share in common?

[F6BANGER]

searched over and over and finally came up with this. http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,3863.0.html

[Ricky-D]

I have to respectfully disagree with some of the stated assumptions posted in this thread and further post my agreement with whitestroke to a degree.

You can use the heat of the exhaust as an indicator when trying to adjust the synchronization of the carburetors.

It is not a very accurate method however, and results can be mixed. Especially if you are using a poor temperature measuring device such as your hand.

And you must realize that a cylinder that is loafing will not produce much heat when compared to a cylinder that is doing the work of keeping the motor idling.

Now you couldn't do this exercise with a stock exhaust system but with a 6 into 6 exhaust system where each cylinder has it's own exhaust pipe out to the end it is entirely conceivable.

***

[salty1]

Each to his own Ricky, I prefer more sensitive instrumentation than my hand. Your manometer system is impressive F6Banger. Whitestroke, I'm not aware of anything that # 2 & 3 cylinders share in common like a coil for example. Your problem sure sounds like it's fuel related. I don't remember, have you adjusted your pilots? Make the synchro job "number last" in your tasks.

[John U.]

If the cylinder is firing the exhaust pipe serving that cylinder will be warm. If it isn't firing the reason is almost certainly a clogged slow jet. The problem is very unlikely to be spark. This is nothing new around here, we seem to have several members with the same situation every couple of weeks, during the winter particularly.

You can't sync an engine if all the cylinders are not firing. The suggestion that one or more exhaust pipes are not getting warm because the cylinder is loafing is nonsense. A bit more or less warm maybe but a cold pipe means no fire.

[Mr Steve]

You didn't mention how log this bike sat. 

He's stumped on that, but later posts show the logger the trees are in the wind, the more debarked it gets.

[fordmano]

A set of brass fish tank air valves is what I used to create that dampening effect.






 I had some problems with my carbs also and then ran through continued issues but I was able to get it all figured out with the help of others here. So I will share with you incase you haven't looked before, here is the link to my LONG list of upgrades and maintenence items from a year ago.
Here is the link to my photobucket photo album, contains ALL of the pictures. 1001 to be exact, that should keep you busy for a minute.
http://s974.photobucket.com/albums/ae222/fordmano/Valkyrieupgradeprojects2010/

And here is the link to my post thread with LOTS of information and conversation about carbs and other general information.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,21439.0.html


Enjoy, others have. And I sure enjoy being able to show off and share what I have done.

[Patrick]

Is there more than one posting/thread or whatever its called about this?? It appears there is as some of my responses[lengthly] are not here..

Nevermind,, I found it.. It must be too early..  Maybe this stuff should be on one post/thread..  It makes things a bit easier..

[whitestroke]

Here's the other thread called:
Carb Sync Guys, is my logic flawed?

Not sure the easy way, but what you have below is a copy and paste of the quotes, so it's missing my questions.  Hope this helps.

In a word...yes.  To sync the carbs, you need a gauge or series of gauges if you want to hook all six up at the same time.  All the sync does is make certain all six carbs are generally operating at the same level. But to do it right, you need to FIRST adjust all six of the Pilot screws so they're set at the same point. The Pilots set the fuel/air mixture which affect the varying temps you're feeling. THEN....using a gauge, sync the carbs by matching all to #3 which is your base. That's the middle cylinder on the right side. What you're doing now is like spitting in the wind....useless.

Whitestroke......The way that you are thinking/doing it IS NOT going to work.  This carburetor system is geared this way....The #3 carb (The middle carb on the right side...when you are sitting on the bike.) is a set carb with no adjustment.  All 5 other carbs are set to the #3 carb.

Goose
I'm turning down the other carbs so that #3 carb starts to contribute.

Maybe a more appropryate question would be, does turning down other cylinders make  #3 cylinder produce more heat?  It is now blowing cold air.

Goose
I'm turning down the other carbs so that #3 carb starts to contribute.

Maybe a more appropryate question would be, does turning down other cylinders make  #3 cylinder produce more heat?  It is now blowing cold air.

Likely clogged slow jet causing it to be cold at idle.

What ??!!  What screws are you turning? No matter which screws you are turning, it ain't gonna work.. If the engine ran smoothly from 1200-1500 and beyond then the jets are probably clear.. If the engine idled poorly then it probably just needs a sync.. Set the pilots at 2.25 turns and sync the carburetors correctly.. A plain ole vacuum gauge works just fine.. Unless someone has really screwed things up, those screws don't need to turned much at all..

Just as a little note here about synchronizing the carburetors:

Those screws that turn to make adjustments do not all turn the same way to make similar adjustments.

You have to look closely at how they interact with each other.

***

Holy crap guys, it only cost me $60 to get a motorcycle shop to sync the carbs.  It only took then a half hour to do it.  It was going to cost me more than that to buy the stuff to do it myself.

You're way off base and now you have to be way out of sync,All synchronizing the carbs. does is make them open and close at the same time so they are working together.It has nothing to do with the heat of your exhaust. Your carbs. can and should be in sync even when the engine is not running.

You're way off base and now you have to be way out of sync,All synchronizing the carbs. does is make them open and close at the same time so they are working together.It has nothing to do with the heat of your exhaust. Your carbs. can and should be in sync even when the engine is not running.

What ??!!  What screws are you turning? No matter which screws you are turning, it ain't gonna work.. If the engine ran smoothly from 1200-1500 and beyond then the jets are probably clear.. If the engine idled poorly then it probably just needs a sync.. Set the pilots at 2.25 turns and sync the carburetors correctly.. A plain ole vacuum gauge works just fine.. Unless someone has really screwed things up, those screws don't need to turned much at all..

Turned the sync screws in 3 turns on the 4 cylinders that are hot. Simple to turn them back, as I did mark them.
Bike has a barely noticeable miss if you ease on gas from idle.  At 3K and above it's unnoticeable, wish there was someone in So. Cal. with a Valk to test ride it.  If you've driven twins all your life like myself you wouldn't even notice the miss, until you spend some time on the bike.

Whitestroke.....You cannot sync. carbs the way that you are doing it.  The carb sync. has nothing to do with the heat that you are talking about.  Put the bike in a wheel chock where it is sitting straight up and down, and start all over again...matching all the other carbs to #3.  All you are basically doing is making all the carbs open , and close at the same time.  The way you are going about doing it, will result in the bike NOT running the way that it was designed.

I'd suggest that you check in with the Cal. Valkyrie group.  Surely there is someone around close that can get you on the right path.  There is a correct sequence to tuning the Valkyrie.  That is what all these guys have been trying to convey to you...Jim

I have to respectfully disagree with some of the stated assumptions posted in this thread and further post my agreement with whitestroke to a degree.

You can use the heat of the exhaust as an indicator when trying to adjust the synchronization of the carburetors.

It is not a very accurate method however, and results can be mixed. Especially if you are using a poor temperature measuring device such as your hand.

And you must realize that a cylinder that is loafing will not produce much heat when compared to a cylinder that is doing the work of keeping the motor idling.

Now you couldn't do this exercise with a stock exhaust system but with a 6 into 6 exhaust system where each cylinder has it's own exhaust pipe out to the end it is entirely conceivable.

***

hmmm...."entirely conceivable"? Ok what if the pilot jets are not all set the same,which can happen if you use a tech. and set them independently.   I can see where that would make a difference in the heat of the exhaust but not in sync.if something (anything) is in sync it moves the same way and the same time. I know Harley riders with one carb that have different tempature exhaust readings.I'm not trying to be argumentative just trying to see where your line of reasoning is   

If the engine runs fine from 3K and beyond, but, runs poorly below that engine speed, then, its pretty much a sure sign of varnished low jets or related passageways.. It could possibly also be a sign of someone really screwing up a pilot adjustment or a sync.. So, the low jets need to be clean, the pilots set at 2.25 turns[#35s] or 1.5 turns for #38s.. Then the vacuum should be set on all cylinders/carburetors to that shown on #3.. The carb idle stop screws should never need to be turned 3 turns.. Honda got this set-up right, carburetor assembly is simple, easy to adjust and bullet-proof, or at least it usually is..

Take the carbs off clean and rejet them then resync ,    just get it over with already.  Or at least run some Techroline through them.

Take the carbs off clean and rejet them then resync ,    just get it over with already.   Or at least run some Techroline through them.

[whitestroke]

If you take a just synced bike and put a infrared thermometer a few inches behind the 6 headers, I'd be willing to bet they would be pretty dam close to the same temperature.

Is the sync adjusting screw just moving the butterfly?

Is the 1st picture (not the diagram) in the below link of the 3/16 line from the top of the bowl on the #3 carb just on Ca. models?
The line doesn't hold vacuum very well it leaks slowly.  It goes to the Vent Control Valve.  Could this be the reason #3 cylinder is not firing/cold at idle.  Other cylinders are now all firing/hot at idle.
http://valkyrie-owners.com/SMFORUM/index.php/topic,10309.0.html

[salty1]

I don't know anything about that line that doesn't hold vacuum well. But, to answer the other question, yes the butterfly is moved by the synchro screw to achieve equal air intake across the cylinders. As you know, the baseline carb is #3. Sounds like your making good progress.

[Ricky-D]

Probably a good thing would be to have the manual.  A good place to start!

***

[whitestroke]

Check this picture out!   #3 cylinder motor running  
If you look where the needle enters the jet you can see fuel getting sucked down the throat, ( it looks white right on top of the brass jet)






Here is cylinder #5 motor running. NO WHITE.






Here is cylinder #1 motor running. NO WHITE



My thoughts are this on the problem...
Does the needle move up and down with the butterfly????
If so opening the other butterflys via the sync screws ought to get #3 to fire and heat up the exhaust (remember it was cold).
EXHAUST IS COLD because it was flooded????

Time for more detective work.
Just turned all sync screws out 1 turn, #1 and #5 now have visable gas flowing by there needles, none at #3. 
Turned syncs back in a 1/2 turn and they are all flowing a barely visable flow. 
STILL NO HEAT OUT OF #3   

[whitestroke]

Plug #3 is in the middle





Plug#1





Top of picture is front of bike.



Kind of hard to see, but #3 is much blacker all the way down the insulater.

[Ricky-D]

Looking at the plugs I think you are running on the rich side on all cylinders.

I suggest going back to stock size idle jets for a start!

***

[whitestroke]

Ricky-D
Is the idle jet and the slow jet the same thing?...... Not to be confused with the pilot jet.

Plugs, To me they all look like #1 pretty darn good!  Except #3(black) and # 2(Black & Tan).



I've ordered parts for jet/bowl cleaning, JIS Phillips, Pilot tool, pilot, intake, bowl gasket o-rings,

[Ricky-D]

Each carburetor has only two jets.  An idle (slow) jet and a main jet. Two!

There are more metering devices but only two jets in each carburetor.

And those plugs indicate a rich condition which I consider to be an idle jet problem.

You probably have other things going on but too large idle jets would be a place to start making changes!

***

[whitestroke]

Replaced all 6 slow jets with new 35's, cleaned the mains.  Also sprayed carb cleaner up into jet holes with jets removed.
Removed the pilot needles, they were all siliconed in. Had to dig the silicone out with an exacto blade, before D tool would fit up in the pilot tube. Sprayed carb cleaner up pilot tube with the needles removed, it sprays out the hole in carb you see right before the intake risers.  The pilot needles must meter air?

The #3 slow jet was clogged you could not see-thru the hole.  Stuck a strand of wire through hole expecting to find a speck of rust, which there were many when I cleaned out tank.  What came out on the end of the wire was a clay like consistency speck on the end of the wire strand.  I could roll it long or squish it flat and then roll it back into a ball. Kinda just disintegrated after that.  Maybe a piece of lint with a growth on it???

Anyway started it up and the sound was better . then felt all pipes and they were all warm  .
Hope to get tank and airbox on tomorrow for my first ride on a properly running Valk. 

If things are good will try to sync it with 1 Vacuum gauge and aquarium valves.

[salty1]

You can bench synch the carbs if there off the bike. Use a piece of wire or something for metering the butterfly opening when you turn the synch screws. If you do this precisely, you may find the bike runs the best it can before you synch it using better instrumentation.

[Dave G]

My 97 popped a little on decel since I bought it.  After 30,000 miles I removed the airbox to replace all vacuum and fuel lines.  I found the PAIR hose had a kink in it from the factory (I bought the bike new).  I straightened the kinked hose and never got another pop.  An intake manifold/air box hose edge was also folded under the clamp (allowing unfiltered air into the #6 carb intake.

[Brian]

I am glad to hear you got the girl running. Follow the shop talk instructions for making your own synch set up using one vacuum gauge and you will need to use a needle valve to snub the gauge needle so it will read steady.Instead of clothes pins I used the binder clips from an office supply store. I was lucky in that I had everything to make mine with exception of the pliable hose. Setting your carbs is not hard as long as you follow the directions. Good luck.

[whitestroke]

Took her for a ride!    I'm a happy camper.  
Just getting some popping at decell on cylinder #2 (guessing #2 because it's exhaust is not as hot as others).  For sure its on the left side.
Hoping to sync it Thursday, and lose the popping on #2.  Am I barking up the right tree?

[salty1]

I think you are doing great! Keep barking! 

[Brian]

Whitestroke,
If you are still having issues you may want to consider conducting a compression test on all the cylinders. When I bought my 97 it only had 900 miles on it and had sat for over two years. The compression test showed three cylinders low. I took the heads off to find the valves had a considerable amount of carbon build up. This maybe off base and start more conversation. It just a thought that no one else mentioned here.

[whitestroke]

Valk is running great just some popping on decell.  I synced it today and the popping on decell seems to come from both sides now.
I have 2 Bros. 6 into 6 and a k&N with no prefilter.  Not a fan of K&N.
Also I set pilots at 2 and 1/4.  Slows are 35 and mains 100.

Whats more likly to help with popping.
#1 Replace K&N with stock filter?
#2 Set pilots to 2 and 1/2?
#3 Buy a stock exhaust, don't want to go there.$$$$$$

In other words which should I try first?

[Thunderbolt]

Sorry, you need to take it apart and clean the slow jets.  My opinion only.  I have done several sets and all had some slows clogged.  Make sure that you put a new tank screen in and that the tank is clean before you put it back on.  Had one that clogged again from debris in the tank and lines.  Open the drains when you put the tank and line on and let it flush the bottom of the bowls before you let them fill.  That slow jet is only 32 thousandths of an inch. Like one strand of wire in your standard wire brush.
If #3 is cold and you have spark, then you don't have gasoline.  Make sure that all the floats are allowing gas to flow, I had one that the float was stuck off.  Test this before you put the carb bank back on with your temporary tank, make sure they all will fill and shut off.

[whitestroke]

Thunderbolt
Slows were all replaced with new.  See my 3rd post back.  She's running great!!!  Just have popping on decell.

[Bigwolf]

Decell popping is caused by a lean fuel mixture in decell.  There are 2 systems on the Valkyrie that are meant to stop that.  One is the PAIR control valve that shuts the smog system down when intake vacuum reaches 15.7 inches of mercury (when you quikly let off the throttle).  From the photo earlier in this thread, your PAIR control valve was removed.  Did you complete the desmog?  If not, the plastic caps on the PAIR valve boxes might be leaking which would increase popping.  The other system that is there to stop decell popping is the air cut valve on the side of each carb.  Have you checked that short piece of rubber tubing to the cut valve on the side of each carb?  Have you checked the air cut valves for proper operation?  All 6 of those short rubber tubes and 5 of the 6 cut valves on my Valk were bad before 25k miles.

Wolf

[salty1]

Also, make sure the exhaust header bolts are tight. How many turns on the pilots do you have? You might try 2 and 1/2. Have you synched those carbs yet? Too many questions, sorry. 

[Thunderbolt]

O.K. sorry, didn't read all of the thread.  Popping is most likely air leaning out the mixture then.  Could still be some trash in the new jet from contaminated lines, pulling it into the new jet on your cold cylinder problem.  Keep on working on it, sounds like you have learned a lot.

[whitestroke]

Also, make sure the exhaust header bolts are tight. How many turns on the pilots do you have? You might try 2 and 1/2. Have you synched those carbs yet? Too many questions, sorry.  

I did snug the header bolts down, but have no way of knowing if the PO installed new crush gaskets when he installed 6 into 6.  Any way to hear or feel if exhaust is leaking?
Pilots set at 2and 1/4 will try opening them up a 1/4.

That would be yes on the syncing!!!!

[Ricky-D]

Yep, you got it!

Those exhaust pipes will be the final answer to quieting the popping.

Just live with it.

***

[whitestroke]

Ricky D
As in new crush gaskets or getting rid of the 6 into 6?

[salty1]

Whitestroke you need a crush gasket between the head and the block. Sorry I don't remember the year of your bike, but it's item #3 in the schematic below.

http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=148820&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1998&fveh=3477

[Ricky-D]

Getting rid of the 6 into 6!

Stock pipes will be the only way to stop all the popping completely.

All the aftermarket pipes exhibit popping to some extent.

Even stock pipes that are modified will pop a little.

***

[salty1]

I agree Ricky! I think a little popping is inherent in that lovely beast.