Trayvon Martin Matter . . . Opinions

[MP]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

[The Anvil]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

[fudgie]

I bet Z was open carring and Trayvon tried to steal his weapon like when it happens all the time.  Just kidding, I dont think you can oc in FL. 

[fudgie]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

If you instigate a fight you cannot, well legally, use a weapon to defend yourself. Your correct.

[Cliff]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

[The Anvil]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

[BIG--T]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Evidently the kid was a lot faster and the element of surprise took him down. Yes, cracking a skull open like a coconut is just as deadly as a .45 HP!!

[Cliff]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

 If Martin struck first ,,, HELL YES.  In the right circumstances one punch to the head can be deadly.

[The Anvil]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

 If Martin struck first ,,, HELL YES.  In the right circumstances one punch to the head can be deadly.

I didn't ask if he was the aggressor (we don't know one way or another) I asked if he had the element of surprise and he did not, or at least he should not. If someone whom you already believe to potentially be a dangerous criminal approaches you and asks you if you have a problem and they somehow still retain the element of surprise then you might be dead from the neck up already.

There's a lot to this story that doesn't add up for a number of reasons. That's why it should have been explored further at the time. Now we find ourselves in another crap-show.

[BIG--T]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

 If Martin struck first ,,, HELL YES.  In the right circumstances one punch to the head can be deadly.

Yes one punch to the head can be deady while all along the kid was on top pile driving his head into the concrete. I would've shot him too!

[Cliff]

Now we find ourselves in another crap-show.

When things happen and move fast one can still be surprised.   And I couldn't agree more with the type of show this has created.  I have wondered if perhaps the slow release of info was to fuel the "show" and help generate support for the repeal of the stand your ground laws, at the expense of Mr Z.

[BIG--T]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

Absolutley he had the element of surprise!

[The Anvil]

BTW, seeing as my mind tends to explore possibilities (and admittedly some very weird ones) I began thinking about possible conspiracy angles.

I happen to be friendly with a lot of LEO's at the local, State and Federal levels. I would say that the majority of them are not big fans of the average citizen walking around armed to the teeth. Now, this doesn't make them bad people. They're in a different position than we are and are far more likely to encounter guns pointed AT them (ask me how I know). So to some degree I understand their being less fond of it than I am.

So what if they KNEW that not charging Zimmerman was going to start a firestorm and a review of SYG and in fact was exactly what they were looking to accomplish.

I'm not saying I believe that's what happened, just one of those things that you think about.

[Cliff]

BTW, seeing as my mind tends to explore possibilities (and admittedly some very weird ones) I began thinking about possible conspiracy angles.

I happen to be friendly with a lot of LEO's at the local, State and Federal levels. I would say that the majority of them are not big fans of the average citizen walking around armed to the teeth. Now, this doesn't make them bad people. They're in a different position than we are and are far more likely to encounter guns pointed AT them (ask me how I know). So to some degree I understand their being less fond of it than I am.

So what if they KNEW that not charging Zimmerman was going to start a firestorm and a review of SYG and in fact was exactly what they were looking to accomplish.

I'm not saying I believe that's what happened, just one of those things that you think about.

FAR stranger things have been found to be true!


Anvil,, given our proximity we should share the wind sometime.

[The Anvil]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

Absolutley he had the element of surprise!

If you really believe that then Zimmerman had no business with a gun. You're following an individual that you believe to be a criminal and potentially dangerous. Short of a flat-out ambush from concealment (and that's NOT Zimmerman's story) you should not be surprised. Really, think about this. Discount all of the media crap you've been hearing and put yourself in Zimmerman's position. Can he really claim to have been "surprised" with any level of credibility? If he was then he was acting irresponsibly.

[Cliff]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

Absolutley he had the element of surprise!

If you really believe that then Zimmerman had no business with a gun. You're following an individual that you believe to be a criminal and potentially dangerous. Short of a flat-out ambush from concealment (and that's NOT Zimmerman's story) you should not be surprised. Really, think about this. Discount all of the media crap you've been hearing and put yourself in Zimmerman's position. Can he really claim to have been "surprised" with any level of credibility? If he was then he was acting irresponsibly.

 It is quite possible Zimmerman had zero physical fighting skills,  and some forms of concealed carry make it a relatively slow process to access the weapon, ass opposed to speed of thrown punch.  Keeping in mind you can't legally draw the weapon until the attack begins.

[BIG--T]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

Absolutley he had the element of surprise!

If you really believe that then Zimmerman had no business with a gun. You're following an individual that you believe to be a criminal and potentially dangerous. Short of a flat-out ambush from concealment (and that's NOT Zimmerman's story) you should not be surprised. Really, think about this. Discount all of the media crap you've been hearing and put yourself in Zimmerman's position. Can he really claim to have been "surprised" with any level of credibility? If he was then he was acting irresponsibly.

He was walking back to his truck when Martin questioned him..then it was on!

[The Anvil]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

Absolutley he had the element of surprise!

If you really believe that then Zimmerman had no business with a gun. You're following an individual that you believe to be a criminal and potentially dangerous. Short of a flat-out ambush from concealment (and that's NOT Zimmerman's story) you should not be surprised. Really, think about this. Discount all of the media crap you've been hearing and put yourself in Zimmerman's position. Can he really claim to have been "surprised" with any level of credibility? If he was then he was acting irresponsibly.

  It is quite possible Zimmerman had zero physical fighting skills,  and some forms of concealed carry make it a relatively slow process to access the weapon, ass opposed to speed of thrown punch.

Frankly that's a very possible scenario. He bit off more than he got more than he could handle and panicked. I'll buy that.

But slow reaction time/sloth does not "the element of surprise" make. Maybe Zimmerman should have actually spent some time training for the role he pretended to. Then he may not have had to shoot anyone. That is why I'm such a strong endorser of proper training. Not only with your weapon but without it.

[Cliff]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

Absolutley he had the element of surprise!

If you really believe that then Zimmerman had no business with a gun. You're following an individual that you believe to be a criminal and potentially dangerous. Short of a flat-out ambush from concealment (and that's NOT Zimmerman's story) you should not be surprised. Really, think about this. Discount all of the media crap you've been hearing and put yourself in Zimmerman's position. Can he really claim to have been "surprised" with any level of credibility? If he was then he was acting irresponsibly.

 It is quite possible Zimmerman had zero physical fighting skills,  and some forms of concealed carry make it a relatively slow process to access the weapon, ass opposed to speed of thrown punch.

Frankly that's a very possible scenario. He bit off more than he got more than he could handle and panicked. I'll buy that.

But slow reaction time/sloth does not "the element of surprise" make. Maybe Zimmerman should have actually spent some time training for the role he pretended to. Then he may not have had to shoot anyone. That is why I'm such a strong endorser of proper training. Not only with your weapon but without it.

That almost sounds like you are against someone who has no physical fighting skills should be banned from CCW, to some the firearm is their only realistic defense due to physical limitatons.  It is tragic no matter how you look at it.

[The Anvil]

Keeping in mind you can't legally draw the weapon until the attack begins.

IS that in fact what the law states?

But personally having been in the same position what you do is, you place your hand on your weapon, turn your weapon side away from the threat and extend your support arm to obstruct or slow the potential threat. This is pretty much a universal sign for "I'm gonna draw down and cap your ass". You can even draw the weapon without pointing it at the threat. All the while warning them verbally that you are armed. This WILL stop most attackers in their tracks. If it does not stop them then it can safely be assumed that they are DETERMINED to do you harm. THEN it's on like Donkey Kong.

[The Anvil]

A witness verifies almost all of what Zimmerman said.  Only did not see a little of it.  Plus, the evidence backs it up.  Zimmerman had face, head, and back injuries.  Hard to do that to yourself.

MP

Yeah, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman "did that to himself". The witness backs up that Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked, that's all. I just heard the interview. The witness did not see how it started. Again, you don't need to be the aggressor to win a fight. You also apparently don't need to be more than 145lbs.

 Being heavier/larger has less to do with advantage than ability, speed and possibly surprise all do.  The better able and faster will usually win in physical altercation even if at a weight disadvantage, and if you can throw in surprise that jacks the odds way up there.  If I were on the ground being beaten by an "unarmed" assailant I will do what is necessary to protect myself,,, hands can and have killed even when death wasn't the intent.

Yeah that was kind of my point.

But Zimmerman's story is that Martin approached him and asked him if he had a problem. When Zimmerman responded "no" Zimmerman claims that Martin said "well now you do" and attacked. Now call me crazy but considering that and all that led up to it does it sound like Martin had the element of surprise?

Absolutley he had the element of surprise!

If you really believe that then Zimmerman had no business with a gun. You're following an individual that you believe to be a criminal and potentially dangerous. Short of a flat-out ambush from concealment (and that's NOT Zimmerman's story) you should not be surprised. Really, think about this. Discount all of the media crap you've been hearing and put yourself in Zimmerman's position. Can he really claim to have been "surprised" with any level of credibility? If he was then he was acting irresponsibly.

 It is quite possible Zimmerman had zero physical fighting skills,  and some forms of concealed carry make it a relatively slow process to access the weapon, ass opposed to speed of thrown punch.

Frankly that's a very possible scenario. He bit off more than he got more than he could handle and panicked. I'll buy that.

But slow reaction time/sloth does not "the element of surprise" make. Maybe Zimmerman should have actually spent some time training for the role he pretended to. Then he may not have had to shoot anyone. That is why I'm such a strong endorser of proper training. Not only with your weapon but without it.

That almost sounds like you are against someone who has no physical fighting skills should be banned from CCW, to some the firearm is their only realistic defense due to physical limitatons.  It is tragic no matter how you look at it.

No, not at all. I just think that if you're going to carry a gun that you should know some very basic techniques for threat abatement. Because one thing that I think we can almost ALL agree on is that while Mr. Zimmerman's guilt as a murderer IS in question, that he made some mistakes is not.

[BIG--T]

I agree that he bit off more than he could chew! He was probably a wanna be cop as someone stated. Z probably coudn't fight and comparing sizes of the 2, you know a 17 yr old kid was lighting fast compared to a 28 yr old, i know i was at  17

[Cliff]

Keeping in mind you can't legally draw the weapon until the attack begins.

IS that in fact what the law states?

But personally having been in the same position what you do is, you place your hand on your weapon, turn your weapon side away from the threat and extend your support arm to obstruct or slow the potential threat. This is pretty much a universal sign for "I'm gonna draw down and cap your ass". You can even draw the weapon without pointing it at the threat. All the while warning them verbally that you are armed. This WILL stop most attackers in their tracks. If it does not stop them then it can safely be assumed that they are DETERMINED to do you harm. THEN it's on like Donkey Kong.

I am quite certain that if you draw your weapon and the only reason you can give is "I think he was going to attack me"  and the attack doesn't occur,,, you may be in a legal murk in short order.
Yes a prepared person would have his hand on the weapon if he thought the attack was coming, but if thinking it was over and walking back to truck..... maybe not.

[Cliff]

that he made some mistakes is not

complete agreement.

[Cliff]

I agree that he bit off more than he could chew! He was probably a wanna be cop as someone stated. Z probably coudn't fight and comparing sizes of the 2, you know a 17 yr old kid was lighting fast compared to a 28 yr old, i know i was at  17

some know that and depend on that when forming their decisions.

[BIG--T]

I agree that he bit off more than he could chew! He was probably a wanna be cop as someone stated. Z probably coudn't fight and comparing sizes of the 2, you know a 17 yr old kid was lighting fast compared to a 28 yr old, i know i was at  17

some know that and depend on that when forming their decisions.

 Wether he could fight or not, slow/ fast should have no bearing on the case. The reason he's not in jail now is bc LEO can see it's self defense. Z was walking back to his truck when this happened. I see where he had no other choice than to use deadly force. Marins hands were weapons by pile driving his head in the sidewalk. I woulda put a cap in his a$$ too.

[alph]

I have not read all the posts, so my opinion may have been stated already. 

First off, you have a Hispanic killing a Black boy that was visiting a person that lived in that neighborhood.  Zimmerman took it onto himself to intimidate Martin by pursuing him instead of watching as a “neighborhood watch” would imply.  Martin was in a strange neighborhood, and in my opinion, felt threaten by Zimmerman; so, in comes the “fight, or flight” scenario.  If he runs, Zimmerman will assume guilt, so he chose to fight, and sadly, he lost.  (by the way, there was another option that was not considered, and that would be “freeze”.  Martin could have “froze”, not done anything, waited for the police, whom would have talked to both sides and there wouldn’t be a story now, but apparently he didn’t)

This IS NOT a race issue.  It is NOT a white/black argument.  But it has become one.  It is an over zealous paranoid vigilante, wanting to be the hero of the neighborhood situation. 

Zimmerman is guilty, and dead men tell no tales. 

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

During my first gig as a maintenance mechanic at 21 years-old I worked with a guy who had spent all of his adult life in prison. The owner of the company had gotten him out when he was close to 60 and he lived in a trailer on  company property. He was a great guy that I thought a lot of, although he was a little scary when pissed off.

The story of how he lost his freedom and went to prison at the age of 19 was scary too because it could have happened to anyone, certainly anyone whose ever been in a fight. He went to a bar after work with some co-workers and talk escalated into a fight with an older patron. Grumpy (the only name I knew him by) threw one punch, hitting the guy in the temple and killing him. With that one punch, both their lives were over. Who knows if the guy died from the punch, from a health problem or a heart attack, all that mattered was that he died after Grumpy hit him. My best guess is this would have happened around 1940. I'm sure Grumpy had no fight training besides growing up rough and tumble.

So yes, a punch can be life threatening or life ending.

[Cliff]

During my first gig as a maintenance mechanic at 21 years-old I worked with a guy who had spent all of his adult life in prison. The owner of the company had gotten him out when he was close to 60 and he lived in a trailer on  company property. He was a great guy that I thought a lot of, although he was a little scary when pissed off.

The story of how he lost his freedom and went to prison at the age of 19 was scary too because it could have happened to anyone, certainly anyone whose ever been in a fight. He went to a bar after work with some co-workers and talk escalated into a fight with an older patron. Grumpy (the only name I knew him by) threw one punch, hitting the guy in the temple and killing him. With that one punch, both their lives were over. Who knows if the guy died from the punch, from a health problem or a heart attack, all that mattered was that he died after Grumpy hit him. My best guess is this would have happened around 1940. I'm sure Grumpy had no fight training besides growing up rough and tumble.

So yes, a punch can be life threatening or life ending.

 That is why I will never engage in a physical altercation unless forced by no other choice.  I don't tuck tail and run but am good at defusing situations to calmer levels.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

During my first gig as a maintenance mechanic at 21 years-old I worked with a guy who had spent all of his adult life in prison. The owner of the company had gotten him out when he was close to 60 and he lived in a trailer on  company property. He was a great guy that I thought a lot of, although he was a little scary when pissed off.

The story of how he lost his freedom and went to prison at the age of 19 was scary too because it could have happened to anyone, certainly anyone whose ever been in a fight. He went to a bar after work with some co-workers and talk escalated into a fight with an older patron. Grumpy (the only name I knew him by) threw one punch, hitting the guy in the temple and killing him. With that one punch, both their lives were over. Who knows if the guy died from the punch, from a health problem or a heart attack, all that mattered was that he died after Grumpy hit him. My best guess is this would have happened around 1940. I'm sure Grumpy had no fight training besides growing up rough and tumble.

So yes, a punch can be life threatening or life ending.

And let me add that in spite of being 21 years-old, pretty fearless and seemingly believing I was immortal as the young frequently do, you could not have paid me enough to fight that 60 year-old man. He ran the tool crib and bounced me and the other mechanics off the walls occasionally just playing around. I was amazed when he finally started to seem old, I really thought he was too tough to be affected by anything but nobody outruns time I guess.

[BIG--T]

During my first gig as a maintenance mechanic at 21 years-old I worked with a guy who had spent all of his adult life in prison. The owner of the company had gotten him out when he was close to 60 and he lived in a trailer on  company property. He was a great guy that I thought a lot of, although he was a little scary when pissed off.

The story of how he lost his freedom and went to prison at the age of 19 was scary too because it could have happened to anyone, certainly anyone whose ever been in a fight. He went to a bar after work with some co-workers and talk escalated into a fight with an older patron. Grumpy (the only name I knew him by) threw one punch, hitting the guy in the temple and killing him. With that one punch, both their lives were over. Who knows if the guy died from the punch, from a health problem or a heart attack, all that mattered was that he died after Grumpy hit him. My best guess is this would have happened around 1940. I'm sure Grumpy had no fight training besides growing up rough and tumble.

So yes, a punch can be life threatening or life ending.

Yes that is scary! Just hitting someone in the temple, hitting someone in the nose driving the bone into his brain, catching the windpipe, and the list goes on. I just thank God this never happened to me and it very well could have.

[MP]

Keeping in mind you can't legally draw the weapon until the attack begins.

IS that in fact what the law states?

But personally having been in the same position what you do is, you place your hand on your weapon, turn your weapon side away from the threat and extend your support arm to obstruct or slow the potential threat. This is pretty much a universal sign for "I'm gonna draw down and cap your ass". You can even draw the weapon without pointing it at the threat. All the while warning them verbally that you are armed. This WILL stop most attackers in their tracks. If it does not stop them then it can safely be assumed that they are DETERMINED to do you harm. THEN it's on like Donkey Kong.

I am quite certain that if you draw your weapon and the only reason you can give is "I think he was going to attack me"  and the attack doesn't occur,,, you may be in a legal murk in short order.
Yes a prepared person would have his hand on the weapon if he thought the attack was coming, but if thinking it was over and walking back to truck..... maybe not.

The term is "brandishing" a weapon.  Will get you charged in most jurisdictions.  You better have a real good reason to pull it.

I am amazed at how some can remark on "what he should have done", etc.  Easy to say what you would have/should have, done.  MUCH harder when it actually happens.

It is tragic the young man died.  However, I do not see where Zimmerman should be charged. I think the police looked at the physical evidence, and the testimony, and they matched.  They figured out it was a legit case of self defense, thus no charges.

Now, many are trying it in the media.  You know, charge him, give him a fair trial, then hang him! Or, just go out and shoot Zimmerman, and collect the Black Panthers bounty!  THEY should be charged.  I know if I went out, and put a bounty like that on someone, I would be charged!

MP

MP

[SANDMAN5]

I think this is another of those "we'll never know the truth" stories.

[BIG--T]

Keeping in mind you can't legally draw the weapon until the attack begins.

IS that in fact what the law states?

But personally having been in the same position what you do is, you place your hand on your weapon, turn your weapon side away from the threat and extend your support arm to obstruct or slow the potential threat. This is pretty much a universal sign for "I'm gonna draw down and cap your ass". You can even draw the weapon without pointing it at the threat. All the while warning them verbally that you are armed. This WILL stop most attackers in their tracks. If it does not stop them then it can safely be assumed that they are DETERMINED to do you harm. THEN it's on like Donkey Kong.

I am quite certain that if you draw your weapon and the only reason you can give is "I think he was going to attack me"  and the attack doesn't occur,,, you may be in a legal murk in short order.
Yes a prepared person would have his hand on the weapon if he thought the attack was coming, but if thinking it was over and walking back to truck..... maybe not.

The term is "brandishing" a weapon.  Will get you charged in most jurisdictions.  You better have a real good reason to pull it.

I am amazed at how some can remark on "what he should have done", etc.  Easy to say what you would have/should have, done.  MUCH harder when it actually happens.

It is tragic the young man died.  However, I do not see where Zimmerman should be charged. I think the police looked at the physical evidence, and the testimony, and they matched.  They figured out it was a legit case of self defense, thus no charges.

Now, many are trying it in the media.  You know, charge him, give him a fair trial, then hang him! Or, just go out and shoot Zimmerman, and collect the Black Panthers bounty!  THEY should be charged.  I know if I went out, and put a bounty like that on someone, I would be charged!

MP

MP

Yes you would be charged if you're white! Unfortunatly the goverment is scared of the black panthers for fear of rioting and I just hope they don't give in to peer pressure and sacrafice an innocent  man.

[Skinhead]

I have not read all the posts, so my opinion may have been stated already.  

First off, you have a Hispanic killing a Black boy that was visiting a person that lived in that neighborhood.  Zimmerman took it onto himself to intimidate Martin by pursuing him instead of watching as a “neighborhood watch” would imply.  Martin was in a strange neighborhood, and in my opinion, felt threaten by Zimmerman; so, in comes the “fight, or flight” scenario.  If he runs, Zimmerman will assume guilt, so he chose to fight, and sadly, he lost.  (by the way, there was another option that was not considered, and that would be “freeze”.  Martin could have “froze”, not done anything, waited for the police, whom would have talked to both sides and there wouldn’t be a story now, but apparently he didn’t)

This IS NOT a race issue.  It is NOT a white/black argument.  But it has become one.  It is an over zealous paranoid vigilante, wanting to be the hero of the neighborhood situation.  

Zimmerman is guilty, and dead men tell no tales.  

You need to read the posts.  All the facts still aren't in, but those originally esspoused appear to be misleading at best.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Looks like the panther who offered the reward was just arrested for possession of a firearm by a felon. Very nice handgun too by the way. Wish I could afford one.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/27/new-black-panther-party-leader-arrested-for-possession-firearm-after-issuing/

[ptgb]

...The reason he's not in jail now is bc LEO can see it's self defense.

I think the police looked at the physical evidence, and the testimony, and they matched.  They figured out it was a legit case of self defense, thus no charges.

Just to clear something up... in a case like this (and in most other high level (felony violence) cases), the police WILL NOT make the determination of "self-defense", "charges", or anything else as far as crimes this guy will or will not have to answer to.

The police are finders of "fact"... sometimes they can find the real facts, sometimes it is the facts as reported to them, and pretty much every time, they will not find out the facts in their entirety.

The guys with the law degrees have the final say on who or who doesn't face charges based on the facts as provided from an investigation by police. For minor stuff, those investigations can last only minutes. For major stuff (like this), weeks, months, even years. In many cases those guys with law degrees make those decisions through the grand jury process (if their State uses the grand jury system).

The police, judge, mayor, city council, Jesse, Al, or anyone else will not make that decision.

If I had a nickel for every time I had a prosecutor on the phone at 3 am, giving him/her the facts of the matter at hand on a felony crime that included violence; I'd have about $3.35.

As far as this case specifically, a grand jury will hear this case... no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Nobody with a law degree wants to be the one that charges or doesn't charge in this situation - no win situation either way. The grand jury is made up of regular citizens and is anonymous, so it makes it much easier for them to come to the "right" decision either way.

[The Anvil]

The term is "brandishing" a weapon.  Will get you charged in most jurisdictions.  You better have a real good reason to pull it.

That depends on your reason for pulling it.

I am amazed at how some can remark on "what he should have done", etc.  Easy to say what you would have/should have, done.  MUCH harder when it actually happens.

Well it's actually happened to me so I know how I respond.

It is tragic the young man died.  However, I do not see where Zimmerman should be charged. I think the police looked at the physical evidence, and the testimony, and they matched.  They figured out it was a legit case of self defense, thus no charges.

Uh, not exactly. As PT said, that determination is not made by the police. Regardless, sometimes charges are simply not filed because there's no hard evidence to disprove one individual's version of events. In this case the one who could offer a different account is dead. Don't confuse how that works.

Now, many are trying it in the media.  You know, charge him, give him a fair trial, then hang him! Or, just go out and shoot Zimmerman, and collect the Black Panthers bounty!  THEY should be charged.  I know if I went out, and put a bounty like that on someone, I would be charged!

Actually odds are those people will be charged. Placing a bounty on a citizen's head is a civil rights violation. The NBP is already on the DHS watch list you know.

[Jeff K]

All this talk about size. I've got news for you. Not every man is a macho street fighter. I am 52 years old and about the same size as Zimmerman. I have never in my life thrown a punch at any human being. I got Jumped in a bar bathroom and got my head beat in once, but I never even saw the guys that did it, I was busy "doing something" and had my hand full.  got punched in the back of the head.
But short of wrestling my siblings, 4 sisters, I have never been in a fight.

But I do carry.

So any street savvy 6'2" 17 year old is a huge threat to me. He WANTS to fight, and I don't and can't.

My best chance of survival is to shoot him. Because there isn't a remote possibility that I am going to defend myself from anyone hand to hand.

So all you macho guys go ahead and fend off your attackers like a "man" I have another plan. 

[BIG--T]

All this talk about size. I've got news for you. Not every man is a macho street fighter. I am 52 years old and about the same size as Zimmerman. I have never in my life thrown a punch at any human being. I got Jumped in a bar bathroom and got my head beat in once, but I never even saw the guys that did it, I was busy "doing something" and had my hand full.  got punched in the back of the head.
But short of wrestling my siblings, 4 sisters, I have never been in a fight.

But I do carry.

So any street savvy 6'2" 17 year old is a huge threat to me. He WANTS to fight, and I don't and can't.

My best chance of survival is to shoot him. Because there isn't a remote possibility that I am going to defend myself from anyone hand to hand.

So all you macho guys go ahead and fend off your attackers like a "man" I have another plan. 

If you feel that you can't protect yourself with your hands and feel and know your life is in danger, you would have to use deadly force. Just be sure it is justifiable or you could be charged with murder! I hope it never happens but if it did you better hope he ain't black!!