Arizona Profiling revisited

[oZ]

Anvil Folks are fibbing, really?

First growing up in Los Angeles County my experience with folks of Hispanic dissent has been excellent, I think RJ would agree with me; know that Los Angeles County is 47.7% Hispanic and so much the better for it. We have whole cities in the Los Angeles basin where Spanish is the dominant language. That said they have enriched the quality of life here exponentially.

But I call “Bull Roar” on your post and it’s hysterical you of all people citing you have illegals in New Hampshire…Is that the extent of your experience and what your opinions are based on?
We’re talking impact here! Most illegals have been here long enough to have adult children and own homes, again my point is we in the southwest like California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas have been dealing with illegals for over a hundred years, come on admit it, your illegal problem in New Hampshire just may be a recent development, maybe 20 years… yea?

I believe I was eating Mexican food before you knew what a taco was! (Depending on your age). Citing your experience in New Hampshire is ludicrous.

Now on to illegals, I have two friends that own fabricating businesses, to explain that is they embellish already made items by screening and decorating them. Both businesses have over 90% illegals on the shop floor (where the actual work gets done).  Those illegals who have improved their English well enough function as shop floor persons, kind of a management position needed so the owners can direct the day’s work through these English speakers so they can issue orders in Spanish.

I admit and it is depressing, if the current laws of the land were enforced these longtime (contributing) residents with homes, legal children, etc. would be shipped back to their original points of origin.
Just like the thread on Obamacare we had people tossing around opinions who had not been impacted by the law. Same here, you being safely ensconced in Northern New England and your level of experience (not your political bent) doesn’t really comfort me when discussing important issues such as illegal immigration.

•   Question for you Anvil:
o   Why do my friends knowingly hire illegals?
o   Where do you think these employers stand on enforcing the existing laws on illegal aliens?
o   Why do the police in Los Angeles County not enforce some vehicle violations when dealing with illegal aliens?
o   What is Special Order 40?
o   What are Huevos Rancheros? (No wait that is probably available in some crappy chain restaurant in N.H.)
o   What is Menudo Norteña? (Popular where I live)
o   How many Spanish Speaking radio stations in L.A.? (Let’s compare the to New Hamphire, go ahead use the whole state).

Answer those questions without using Google and I may start to give credence to your opinion on the Hispanic Illegal situation and your ability to imply folks are fibbing.

And now are you ready for the big cliché? Some of my best friends are illegal immigrants, I have Willy from the Philippines, David, Alex, and Angel from Mexico, Martha from Guatemala, and it goes on. How many personal illegal friends do you have? How can you understand what’s going on both with the benefits and dangers involved with illegal immigrants.

What are your personal experiences, yes I have been in a vehicle collision with an illegal immigrant but dare not share the experience for fear of being call a liar.

There you go Oss

[Oss]

where is that smiley with the fella eatin the popcorn when you need it

[oZ]

Yup this is going to start an interesting thread for sure. But this is personal and not about conservative or liberal (or maybe not)

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

where is that smiley with the fella eatin the popcorn when you need it

[oZ]

Beat you to it, see original post.

[The Anvil]

Was another thread really necessary? The original is still open and on page 1. 

I don't buy the "story". That's all there is to it. If you don't like it then in the immortal words of Duane Allman; "well that's just tough".

[oZ]

You've proved my point, you are without experience and about propaganda with an agenda.

No need to say more, now I know what I'm dealing with.

[Red Diamond]

I won't call you a liar cause anything can and will happen, but I will call you a "Liberal", cause of all those friends you have. I'll call myself a "Conservative" cause some of those illegal friends you have help me to conserve some of my income from my business. You see, the locals want to make more money than I do and I own the business, WTH.

[oZ]

Good post.

[Stormrider65]

ARE YOU READY TO RUMMMMMBBBBBBLLLLLEEEEEEE????????????????????  Always wanted to say that.    Anvil, I have read a lot of your posts in the past.  I try to keep my mouth shut on things I don't know about or understand.  You are a very learned person.  Me, I finished HS then went to one semester of jr. college before volunteering for the USAF.  I'm not the brightest crayon in the box, but at the chance of being accused of lying, I have had first hand experience with the illegals and accidents here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.  The problem may not be as pronounced there in the New Hampshire as it is here in the lower part of the country, but believe me when I say this, there are plenty of documented cases of misuse of our system.  Being a trucker, I have been personally involved with an incident in New Mexico when 2 illegals were caught hitching a ride in a brand new Mercedes on the back of a car hauler.  My wife noticed one of the doors ajar so I got up beside the driver to let him know.  We both pulled over and he crawled up to the top deck where the car was and found 2 illegals in the back seat.  We then called the state trooper and border patrol.  The trooper got there first.  He finally got both of them down when the border patrol arrived.  We were then informed that there was nothing they could do but to fingerprint them, put them up in a room until the deportation bus arrived.  Give them a burrito and send them on their way.  Both the trooper and the border patrol said they would be back in a couple of days.  If the driver of the car hauler would have gotten pulled over, he would have went to jail and the two would have been deported, and would be back in a couple of days.  The system is screwed, I know.  But the problem is really that bad.  Call me what you want, but I was there and saw it all.  


Walt

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I guess I missed the original thread this was all about.

Be that as it may I learned more about the illegal problem (to my knowledge I don't know any personally) while reading Oz's post than I've learned while reading the news in the past several years. As a matter of fact, I learned enough to change some of my opinions on the subject.

Thanks Oz

[Pat S.]

Oz, you Bully.

[Michael K (Az.)]

oZ, keep in mind that many on this board may think Mexican food is called,"Taco Bell"! Had my first taco in 1954. A little Ma and Pa joint on Indian School Rd here in Phoenix. The owner/waiter looked just like the sgt. on Zorro, he thought that was hysterical! Taco was goood!
Oh yeah! Here ya go!

[Oss]

just a thought

I tend to have those while joggin or in this case walking with my wife and the dogs for a few miles

As I see it one of the basic problems we have is the tendency to go into what I call ballistic mode when someone doesnt agree with us   For my part, although I may think what a total a$$wipe when I may read a thread or see a newsreport or story I TRY not to lash out, sometimes with limited success I admit

But the ability as a country to be civil is costing all of us far more than we realize

Its one reason everyone feels so energized after Inzane or GOTF where we can TALK and RELATE to each other and practice being civil  It does feel good doesnt it?

And lets look at the word us  it is 2/3 of the word USA  not a coincidence

So to me the system in order to work must make as many of THEM into US, this doesnt mean we should all be alike, but all Americans   So yes....

To me this means LEARN THE LANGUAGE if you want any shot at anything that resembles in any way an entitlement. If the immigrant must go to school for a few years ok by me but it should go on their bill to be paid back

Likewise obey the rules of the country  If you do a crime and are not here legally there SHOULD BE special jails where the work is nasty the conditions barbaric (but with medical care) so that those caught
WILL NOT WANT TO COME TAKE THAT CHANCE  

I dont buy the argument that those here illegally get a free ride or that our laws apply to those who have invaded the country without permission. What that makes me I care not

On the other hand there MUST be a way for people who can prove they have been here PRODUCTIVE and CONTRIBUTING To society to qualify to become citizens

It is just helping THEM become US

We are all richer for all the dozens of waves of immigration from the 1st settlers to the latest escaping persecution, hunger or just wanting to be free

Also the immigration laws should cut both ways  For instance the barbaric treatment that Mexico gives those caught without visa or passport MUST be extended to her people who are caught at the border
This is called reciprocity. It is basic.

Now the even greater problem is entitlements  that is for another thread

Oz thanks for the thread and PM, (which is a tool used not often enough)

[Karen]

Thanks, Oz & Oss. nothing further here to add.

[Lyn-Del]

Just for the sake of discussion here ........

I don't want to have to carry "papers" every where I go.  It's bad enough having to remember whether I put the most recent insurance papers in the car/on the bike!   If all employers, etc., were to insist on proof of citizenship, I guess I'd have to carry my Passport everywhere?

Not all illegals are Mexican, though here in Texas it surely seems so.  There are Europeans who have overstayed their work visas, I'm told.  Don't know personally, but it certainly seems reasonable. 

I keep thinking of the movie "Born in East LA".  For those not familiar with it, Cheech Marin plays an American citizen of Mexican heritage.  One morning he leaves the house not realizing he doesn't have his wallet.  At the request of his mother, he goes to a business to pick up a cousin, except that while he is there, the place is raided by INS.  With no ID, and his physical appearance, he gets deported.  His mother is out-of-town and unreachable so she can't vouch for him or bring him his wallet.  He speaks no Spanish.  He can't just "go home".

Yeah, it's a movie, not real life.  But it does make me think about the other side of the coin, the people who are here legitimately as well as those here illegally.

Since the USofA has so far chosen not to declare English (or any other language) as a national language, we cannot require people to learn English.   Yes, I'd appreciate being able to walk into a convenience store and ask directions from someone who speaks English, but that doesn't always happen.  I can choose, of course, to avoid shopping in places I can't communicate with, but that's it.

Under the category of treating others as you'd like to be treated (because next time you may be the one they're questioning),  how would you propose implementing a reasonable program to handle illegal immigration?   While you're formulating a plan, also keep in mind the restrictions that apply to all citizens when mandatory identification laws are in place.

We are already giving up rights in order to be "safe" from the terrorist threat.  Would you be willing to give up more rights to keep people from entering (and staying in) our country illegally?   Would you be willing to exchange your freedom by voluntarily giving up our Constitution in order to be "safe"?

Just for the sake of discussion, imagine having to carry proof of citizenship 24/7.  To have to present said proof each time you make a purchase, go to a hospital, get stopped by a LEO.  Is that where you want this country to go next?

[Oss]

I do

I have to carry a secure pass picture ID to get into Court 5 days a week

I have to carry a drivers license with a picture

If I had a carry permit my fingerprints are on file, in fact my thumb print was on my bar exam papers dont know who keeps that one

English is the language of the constitution and declaration of independence  That is all the authorization to speak english that should be required.

Dont get me wrong I have ancestors from over a dozen countries none of which were english speaking and everyone learned english because they wanted to fit in to be Us  USA citizens

This has changed

And IMHO it has not helped anything  I wait hours in court for interpreters for people who will tell you they were BORN here but cant or more accurately do not wish to speak english so they can get delays on their cases

Yes that was a great movie, but if you are walking out in the park with no ID and have a stroke you are
just as $hit out of luck as Cheech was, maybe worse,

[hubcapsc]

If all employers, etc., were to insist on proof of citizenship, I guess I'd have to carry my Passport everywhere?

I think employers should be held accountable for hiring illegals... I think tons of them
do it on purpose, it saves them a bunch of money. If this happened, illegals would "self deport"
just like Ron Paul sez they would - they would have no jobs and no money here.

I think there's a reason mass forced relocations have names like "The Trail of Tears" and "The
Bataan Death March", and I hope no mass forced relocation of illegals is attempted.

-Mike

[oZ]

Lyn-Del, how the heck are you? Let see about your post. I've left the house without my license and got pretty far as to turn around is a big hassle, what do I do? Turn around.

I may just be paranoid but what does happen if you are pulled over with no identification on you? Really, I don't know but think I don't want to find out.

As far as the hospital, hell include my doctor's office too, I ain't getting in without my Blue Shield card unless I'm on death's door.

As a matter of fact I can't get into my own employers (it's a hospital) without my name badge which opens the door, truth is every single door is locked day and night except the lobby which is manned 24/7 with Security, and that locks up at 8pm.

I don't carry cash, you see I have to go to L.A. and other scary places, at most they get my credit card and not cash which is irreplaceable... that is if I live.

Your papers (license, credit cards, proof of Medical Insurance)... don't leave home without them! LOL

I'm carrying all that crap with me is one more little card going to weigh me down?

But honestly I agree with you we don't need papers like a fascist state BUT you do not have a RIGHT to a job and to produce proof you are a citizen may not be a bad idea. I know my employer always, always researches an applicant, even after that applicant provides a Social Security number or card We have a investigative vendor that does a background check.

Unlike other employers my employer seems to care or is in fear about hiring illegals.

You know when I was a kid working a crap factory job in an industrial park our biggest entertainment was watching when the border control guys raided a building close to us. Folks out of that factory would scurry out running in every direction, it was fun to watch.

We used to have INS offices (I believe they were called) in the county,  there all gone as is the raids

Simple question: Why did it change?

[Lyn-Del]

Let's see ..... I've traveled far too much without a driver's license.  Getting on an airplane after 9/11 was fun, but I've done it on two separate trips.  A hospital emergency room took my driver's license for id, and failed to return it.  Funny, when I went back the next day, they didn't have it.  And the temporary paper that Texas gave me didn't do me any good at all.

I've been pulled over without my license but it was years ago.  Since I know my DL number, it was verified and all I got was a lecture about it.  I've also had a driver's license "valid without photo" which wouldn't do any good these days either, I'm sure.    I'm sure that it would result in a citation today, kinda like not having proof of insurance with me the day the kid rear ended the car behind me who then hit me on the freeway (he couldn't tell the freeway was at full stop?).  All I had to do was prove I had it and the citation went away.

I don't want to live in a police state.  I fear the question is not whether we will become a police state, but whether it will come during my lifetime.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Until this thread I felt like every illegal needed to be booted out of this country, yesterday. I really hadn't considered the possibility of a family living here illegally for 30 years, whose kids may not even know they are illegal. Now, I'm really not sure what I think should be done in such situations, I guess it depends on whether they are otherwise law abiding citizens. I am sure we need to close our border to further illegal immigration and keep it that way.

We surly have the ability to setup a system an employer could use to check on the citizenship  of a potential employee with just a phone call. If a phone call can check your records before you buy a gun then it could check for citizenship status too.

I wouldn't have a problem with current illegals using military service as a road to citizenship. We are a country of immigrants interspersed with a few native Americans. But, we have enough people now.

I don't think we have an energy problem, we have a population problem. Many of the things that we enjoy require us to be able to find uncrowded places. If we don't control our immigration, those places will all but disappear, perhaps in our children's lifetimes.

As for freedom, freedom and overcrowding may well be mutually exclusive. I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the most crowed places are also the most restrictive.

I think the answer is to base allowed new immigration on zero or near zero population growth. The last time I looked at the figures, our birth rate was pretty close to the break even point anyway. But our population was expected to double in not too many years. The huge growth rate was pretty much all immigration.

Personally, I think we are full now and need to close the gates.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I don't want to live in a police state.  I fear the question is not whether we will become a police state, but whether it will come during my lifetime.

I fear you are right. The new patriot act which allows the government to make people disappear without even a trial looks to be setting the stage I think. I have no doubt Nixon would have used that power to make Watergate disappear, and Clinton might have used it to make Charlton Heston and that stained dress disappear.

[fon1961]

Letting unlicensed uninsured drivers drive away is flat wrong. No if's, and's, or buts about it. Their vehicle should've been impounded. That is what wouldve happened to a US citizen. Letting them drive away is wreckless and irresponsible.

[musclehead]

as a card carrying conservative, my solution: 1, seal the border, fence and more fence and then plug the left over holes. 2, anyone here that is illegal and carries on their illegality (gangs, drugs, human trafficing)  gets deported like now, build a catapult to transfer them back. 3, peeps that have assimulated (case by case basis) and are now pretty much tax payers can stay (makes for some sticking points on HOW they got their jobs to pay taxes, it's a misdemor to cross the border, felony to steal an ID) I really don't want to see kids that have been here their entire lives and DON'T speak spanish sent to Mexico.

basically it boils down to; if your here to be an AMERICAN please stay, if your here to game the system LEAVE we have enough Americans doing that already.
I must admit I heard this from a caller on KKOB the talk monster in Albuquerque.

[john]

" No need to say more, now I know what I'm dealing with. "             
" Simple question: Why did it change? "         ???
it changed after a someone in  the congress or senate got busted for have'in
a slew of illigals hired as domestic help  ... yard and household ... 1980s
up until then we had laws against the hire of illegals and our borders were secure
  they "congress and or senate " opened the gate (relaxed law inforcement) after that to protect  " themselves "
now we have what ? ...11 ... 20 million illigals ...
invasion is what i call it ...           
if your not outraged ... your not pay'in attention                   

[texaninsouthfl]

@ OSS:

" So to me the system in order to work must make as many of THEM into US, this doesnt mean we should all be alike, but all Americans... "

Your comment brings to mind the words on the Seal of the United States: "E PLURIBUS UNUM."