Bring America Back

[BigAl]

US tax dollars being spent on infrastruture,

Good thing right.

Well not really.

Chinese firms building bridges in America?

Yes you heard it right.

From a Diane Sawyer interview.

Obama don't want us to come back strong they want us weak and compliant for the next step, take your freedom away.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/us-bridges-roads-built-chinese-firms-14594513?tab=9482930?ion=1206853&playlist=14594944

[Jess Tolbirt]

yep i posted that a while back...

[The Anvil]

So should we pay more for an American firm to do it? Should the government get involved and MANDATE that it only be US firms regardless of cost? Kinda goes against the "small government" ethos, doesn't it?

They mention that they can't find welders. You heard it here first; send your kids to trade schools. This is a legitimate problem in America because the skilled tradesman has been marginalized and indeed looked down upon for many years now. Everyone wants their kid to be a doctor or a lawyer because you can get rich being one of those. As a welder or carpenter you might make a decent living but you're probably not getting rich. Well this country needs people who know how to build things.

[BigAl]

So should we pay more for an American firm to do it? Should the government get involved and MANDATE that it only be US firms regardless of cost? Kinda goes against the "small government" ethos, doesn't it?

They mention that they can't find welders. You heard it here first; send your kids to trade schools. This is a legitimate problem in America because the skilled tradesman has been marginalized and indeed looked down upon for many years now. Everyone wants their kid to be a doctor or a lawyer because you can get rich being one of those. As a welder or carpenter you might make a decent living but you're probably not getting rich. Well this country needs people who know how to build things.

Nah what they are doing is breaking the law, and the they can't find anybody here to build the bridge is a ruse.


China is undercutting us to get more of our hard earned tax money and starving out our businesses by supplying Chinese Government

subsidised Cheap Labor that we can't match and guess what no more Americans Working in important fields that we

need for National Security, Americans are so stupid and short sighted sometimes

[f6john]

   If our governments plan ( at least in part ) is to put people back to work by funding much needed  infrastructure projects, then no foreign company should be awarded any work peroid. If no American company can do the work the job doesn't need doing, end of story.

[The Anvil]

   If our governments plan ( at least in part ) is to put people back to work by funding much needed  infrastructure projects, then no foreign company should be awarded any work peroid. If no American company can do the work the job doesn't need doing, end of story.

Yeah, tell yourself that "If no American company can do the work the job doesn't need doing" when your lungs are sucking in a load of river water. It will be cold comfort.







So yeah, these jobs do need doing.

Welders are in VERY short supply in this country. Lots of people can tack something together, but quality welds on thick metals are another story. And these bridge box sections are still erected here by US workers. Who do you think does the grading, crane operating, dump and cement truck driving etc? It's not as if they send an army of Chinese people here to erect them in their final locations. These projects STILL provide a lot of jobs for Americans. Would it be better if they could be built here? ABSOLUTELY. But it doesn't always happen that way.

Seriously, people say things like this and expect me to bow to humility. 

Why did the Chinese play such an important part in building our railroads?

http://cprr.org/Museum/Chinese.html

[musclehead]

So should we pay more for an American firm to do it? Should the government get involved and MANDATE that it only be US firms regardless of cost? Kinda goes against the "small government" ethos, doesn't it?

They mention that they can't find welders. You heard it here first; send your kids to trade schools. This is a legitimate problem in America because the skilled tradesman has been marginalized and indeed looked down upon for many years now. Everyone wants their kid to be a doctor or a lawyer because you can get rich being one of those. As a welder or carpenter you might make a decent living but you're probably not getting rich. Well this country needs people who know how to build things.

there was a rigger for Chevrolet  (forklift driver) who lived frugally and was much better off then many doctors and lawyers. before he passed away he made a $250,000 contribution to the united negro college fund.  I would argue we have people here that know these trades, but we have people in charge  that don't want to reward american business or it's people. don't even ask I can find examples....

[musclehead]

   If our governments plan ( at least in part ) is to put people back to work by funding much needed  infrastructure projects, then no foreign company should be awarded any work peroid. If no American company can do the work the job doesn't need doing, end of story.

Yeah, tell yourself that "If no American company can do the work the job doesn't need doing" when your lungs are sucking in a load of river water. It will be cold comfort.







So yeah, these jobs do need doing.

Welders are in VERY short supply in this country. Lots of people can tack something together, but quality welds on thick metals are another story. And these bridge box sections are still erected here by US workers. Who do you think does the grading, crane operating, dump and cement truck driving etc? It's not as if they send an army of Chinese people here to erect them in their final locations. These projects STILL provide a lot of jobs for Americans. Would it be better if they could be built here? ABSOLUTELY. But it doesn't always happen that way.

Seriously, people say things like this and expect me to bow to humility. 

Why did the Chinese play such an important part in building our railroads?

http://cprr.org/Museum/Chinese.html

the railroads are another time another story. that bridge was the one that collapsed a few years ago wasn't it? they had too much construction equipment on it.

[tonyfan70]

Sometimes I haul loads of various railroad materials. Sometimes rails, sometimes prebuilt switch sections, sometimes just ties...wooden and concrete both.

I was down in eastern KY picking up a load of 40 foot rails to deliver to central Illinois. Got to talking to one of the workers there. He told me the following....

There are basically two places they get the new rails from. China and a company here in the US called Mattel. No, not the childrens plastic toy company. I said that Chinese steel pretty much sucks, at least one of the companies is American. Then he informed me that theis Mattel company is owned by a Middle Eastern "oilshiek".

WTF? I mean I'm of the opinion that we should of NEVER let this countries rail system go to hell. Every town used to be served by rail but not anymore. Even alot of mainline stuff has fallen into terrible disrepair. Even though I drive a semi, I'm smart enough to know it is many, many, many times more effecient to ship goods by rail. One day I counted 175 container trucks loaded onto a train being pulled by 3 engines. Empty? Full? Who knows, but that's a whole lot of rigs that aren't having to pull those containers.

So anyway, my point was this...here these rail yards I haul to and from are working pretty busily trying to keep up with and hopefully improve our rail system with what? Foreign made rails from one place and the other places profits go overseas. And let me tell you, I have little to no faith in Chinese made rails lasting for any length of time, if they are any good to begin with.

Sad. Really disgusting actually.

[hotglue #43]

I was a welder for 30 plus years....  EVERY weld I made was 100% x-ray and hydro tested....In 30 plus years I had 3 repairs to fix anomolies.... and 1 cut out.... this is out of Thousands of welds....  If one of my welds failed... it would make the 10:00 o'clock news.....There are quality craftsmen here in the States...and I always took pride in being a 'craftsman', and doing GOOD work!!!!.  but they don't come cheap, and ya get what ya pay for.  The code we welded to was higher than B31-3, and allowed ZERO anomolies in the weld...  saw many welders bust out of the tests....Made a fair living doing this..... but I will say this.  It's not what ya make... it's what ya do with it.  ..... for 36 years I saved the same amount I was paying in taxes.... figured if the govenment would take that much.. I would save that much.....

I like my retirement!!!!!!!!
BTW... I'm not counting on the goverment to take care of me.....  I retired based on not getting SS....  but when I reach 62 years old..2 more years.... I'll take what I can get... while I can....  I paid in WAY more than I will ever get out ....Road trip money!!!!!!  LOL

[Bob E.]

the railroads are another time another story. that bridge was the one that collapsed a few years ago wasn't it? they had too much construction equipment on it.

Actually, after the full investigation was completed, they found that it wasn't the construction equipment.  The gusset plates on critical members were designed improperly and undersized.  It was a huge deal within the bridge industry and resulted in many emergency bridge inspections of these types of "deck truss" bridges across the country.  Many bridges that were found to have the same problem have been retrofitted.

[Doc809]

Hmmmm, I'm still waiting on the "getting rich being a doctor or lawyer" part.  Between the gubment and the insurance companies I am making 50% of what I made 10 years ago.  Think my expenses are 50% of what they were 10 years ago?  I think not!  Thinkin bout becoming a skilled laborer.  Only problem is that I don't have those skills. hehe

[The Anvil]

the railroads are another time another story.

They were definitely another time but the story is not as different as you think. Read the whole story and think about what we're seeing now. There are some significant parallels

that bridge was the one that collapsed a few years ago wasn't it? they had too much construction equipment on it.

The construction equipment contributed to the collapse but as Bob said; it was a design flaw. The bridge SHOULD have been able to take the weight of the equipment.

These jobs need doing. That's the point. End of story.

[G-Man]

Hmmmm, I'm still waiting on the "getting rich being a doctor or lawyer" part.  Between the gubment and the insurance companies I am making 50% of what I made 10 years ago.  Think my expenses are 50% of what they were 10 years ago?  I think not!  Thinkin bout becoming a skilled laborer.  Only problem is that I don't have those skills. hehe

So, you're one of those evil, rich docs as well, hunh?  When my costs started going up and the compensation started going down I made the move to the other evil industry, a drug company.

I don't know one doc that wants their kid to go into medicine any longer.

[musclehead]

the railroads are another time another story. that bridge was the one that collapsed a few years ago wasn't it? they had too much construction equipment on it.

Actually, after the full investigation was completed, they found that it wasn't the construction equipment.  The gusset plates on critical members were designed improperly and undersized.  It was a huge deal within the bridge industry and resulted in many emergency bridge inspections of these types of "deck truss" bridges across the country.  Many bridges that were found to have the same problem have been retrofitted.

they jumped the gun and of course blamed heavy trucks (large slow moving target). last I heard was the 210 tons of contruction equipment led to the bridges demise.

[Patrick]

The obama admin  had to push thru a law change in order for the chinese to do this work.. Just one more incidence of obama's shenanigans.
Most infrastructure failures in this country come from lack of maintenance.. After all the 'welfare' related expenses there is nothing left for maintenance.. Some folks just don't understand infrastructure and I'm inclined to think about the liberals..

[Bob E.]

The obama admin  had to push thru a law change in order for the chinese to do this work.. Just one more incidence of obama's shenanigans.
Most infrastructure failures in this country come from lack of maintenance.. After all the 'welfare' related expenses there is nothing left for maintenance.. Some folks just don't understand infrastructure and I'm inclined to think about the liberals..

Which law change was that exactly? 

[jer0177]

The obama admin  had to push thru a law change in order for the chinese to do this work.. Just one more incidence of obama's shenanigans.
Most infrastructure failures in this country come from lack of maintenance.. After all the 'welfare' related expenses there is nothing left for maintenance.. Some folks just don't understand infrastructure and I'm inclined to think about the liberals..

Which law change was that exactly? 

I'm prefacing this comment with this: I'm not an obama supporter.

That being said, the "Buy American Act" of 1933 states that any government funded infrastructure project must use American materials (makes no mention of engineering, management, etc) for its project unless there is a significant savings using foreign materials, there is a shortage of materials or buying foreign is in the "best interest" of the public.

I searched and could not find anything about changes to this act enacted by the current administration.

[Patrick]

Which law,, don't know.. But, it was all over the news for a couple days,, so,, we know it just has to be true..  So, if I'm wrong,, sorry.. I was wrong once before [ I think about 1958 ] and might possibly be wrong again someday so I'll try and keep my mouth shut..

[G-Man]

The obama admin  had to push thru a law change in order for the chinese to do this work.. Just one more incidence of obama's shenanigans.
Most infrastructure failures in this country come from lack of maintenance.. After all the 'welfare' related expenses there is nothing left for maintenance.. Some folks just don't understand infrastructure and I'm inclined to think about the liberals..

Which law change was that exactly? 

I'm prefacing this comment with this: I'm not an obama supporter.

That being said, the "Buy American Act" of 1933 states that any government funded infrastructure project must use American materials (makes no mention of engineering, management, etc) for its project unless there is a significant savings using foreign materials, there is a shortage of materials or buying foreign is in the "best interest" of the public.

I searched and could not find anything about changes to this act enacted by the current administration.

All of this is crap anyway!  If this administration is using ANY kind of foreign supplies or workers or firms or contractors, today, in 2012, with unemployment higher than when they took over, and a still struggling economy,..... then they truly do NOT have the best interest of the country and it's citizens as a priority.  Even if it costs less.

But we already new this.  They waited until 3 years in to start talking about jobs after a failed stim plan.  It was more important to ram a trillion and half bill down our throats that has stagnated hiring.

[jer0177]

The obama admin  had to push thru a law change in order for the chinese to do this work.. Just one more incidence of obama's shenanigans.
Most infrastructure failures in this country come from lack of maintenance.. After all the 'welfare' related expenses there is nothing left for maintenance.. Some folks just don't understand infrastructure and I'm inclined to think about the liberals..

Which law change was that exactly? 

I'm prefacing this comment with this: I'm not an obama supporter.

That being said, the "Buy American Act" of 1933 states that any government funded infrastructure project must use American materials (makes no mention of engineering, management, etc) for its project unless there is a significant savings using foreign materials, there is a shortage of materials or buying foreign is in the "best interest" of the public.

I searched and could not find anything about changes to this act enacted by the current administration.

All of this is crap anyway!  If this administration is using ANY kind of foreign supplies or workers or firms or contractors, today, in 2012, with unemployment higher than when they took over, and a still struggling economy,..... then they truly do NOT have the best interest of the country and it's citizens as a priority.  Even if it costs less.

But we already new this.  They waited until 3 years in to start talking about jobs after a failed stim plan.  It was more important to ram a trillion and half bill down our throats that has stagnated hiring.

I agree wholeheartedly.  Any company that gets paid from an Infrastructure Stimulus project should have it's complete accounting available for public review and be liable for any $$ that doesn't stay in the USA.

[BigAl]

We Need a Change.

[The Anvil]

Which law,, don't know.. But, it was all over the news for a couple days,, so,, we know it just has to be true..  So, if I'm wrong,, sorry.. I was wrong once before [ I think about 1958 ] and might possibly be wrong again someday so I'll try and keep my mouth shut..

I like your style. 

[BigAl]

SOmetime this month the Supreme Court will rule on Obamacare.

If they strike it down over the individual mandate.

It will help us all to get a job, raise, promotion.

It will even help,,wait for it,,Obama, as it has put his numbers in the dumper for ramming it down our throats.

He will be free to sail on without this albatross and maybe even get elected.

Nah

[BigAl]

Ask Smokinjoe where the High Voltage Transmission Tower Supplies come from.

China,

We owe em, they hate us and we are playing right into thier hands.

Next Super Power.

And they hold our credit notes and want paid back at some point.

Present rates of borrowing is 40 cents on every dollar our government spends.

So at that rate if Obama gets in again, we will be 25 Trillion in the hole to the rest of the world.

OR mainly to China.

Love it or leave it, but you may not have a choice we may get thrown out for not paying the rent.

Go ahead and vote Obama back in but you were warned.

[The Anvil]

Ask Smokinjoe where the High Voltage Transmission Tower Supplies come from.

China,

We owe em, they hate us and we are playing right into thier hands.

Next Super Power.

And they hold our credit notes and want paid back at some point.

Present rates of borrowing is 40 cents on every dollar our government spends.

So at that rate if Obama gets in again, we will be 25 Trillion in the hole to the rest of the world.

OR mainly to China.

Love it or leave it, but you may not have a choice we may get thrown out for not paying the rent.

Go ahead and vote Obama back in but you were warned.

Do you realize how much money American investors make dealing with China? Do you really think Romney is going to do anything to bite THAT hand? Those are HIS people. If anything is bound to stay the same or get worse under Romney it would be this inequity. Romney does not care about you. Don't make the mistake of thinking otherwise.

Besides, this is more overreaction. China has their own financial reconing coming down the pike.

[sugerbear]

i've said it before, i'll say it again.

if they can't beat us militarily, they'll beat us financially.

[G-Man]

i've said it before, i'll say it again.

if they can't beat us militarily, they'll beat us financially.

THAT"S WHY THEY HIT THE TOWERS WITH THE PLANES.  Immediately, our stock market plummeted from 13 to 7 and the tech market never rebounded back to where it was.  it has been on a rollercoaster ride since.  Yes, it's up, but are your personal investments or retirements near where they should have, or would have been?

[Bob E.]

The obama admin  had to push thru a law change in order for the chinese to do this work.. Just one more incidence of obama's shenanigans.
Most infrastructure failures in this country come from lack of maintenance.. After all the 'welfare' related expenses there is nothing left for maintenance.. Some folks just don't understand infrastructure and I'm inclined to think about the liberals..

Which law change was that exactly? 

I'm prefacing this comment with this: I'm not an obama supporter.

That being said, the "Buy American Act" of 1933 states that any government funded infrastructure project must use American materials (makes no mention of engineering, management, etc) for its project unless there is a significant savings using foreign materials, there is a shortage of materials or buying foreign is in the "best interest" of the public.

I searched and could not find anything about changes to this act enacted by the current administration.

All of this is crap anyway!  If this administration is using ANY kind of foreign supplies or workers or firms or contractors, today, in 2012, with unemployment higher than when they took over, and a still struggling economy,..... then they truly do NOT have the best interest of the country and it's citizens as a priority.  Even if it costs less.

But we already new this.  They waited until 3 years in to start talking about jobs after a failed stim plan.  It was more important to ram a trillion and half bill down our throats that has stagnated hiring.

Well, the simple fact is that many materials just aren't available domestically...especially steel materials.  We deal with this all the time.  I worked on a project recently where we were designing overhead sign structures for a large highway project in FL.  Due to the size of the structures and the high wind loads (hurricanes), we needed large, thick walled steel pipe.  Almost nobody makes this type of pipe in the US and was going to have to come from Japan until I found a manufacturer that could make it on special order with a long wait period.  But even then we had to change to a larger diameter (ugly) with thinner walls in order to get it.  Fortunately, the sign structures are a non-critical item that can be the last thing erected, so the schedule didn't matter.  If these were bridge beams or retaining wall piles, though...it would have been a big problem.  Another project that we just finished up designing this year right here in Pittsburgh is for a sheet pile/king pile retaining wall along the Mon River.  The king pile system is a specialty item that isn't made domestically and will have to come from Luxemburg.  After we designed the whole thing, a rep from the sheet pile company said they could provide an equivalent section that was US-made and probably save some money, even though we had told him we were pretty sure he couldn't...we had already looked.  So we sent him the geotechnical info and about 3 weeks later, he called back and agreed that we were right.

There was an article just the other day about the SF Bay Bridge that had a significant portion of the materials made in China...a big scandal.  They had to go through all sorts of hoops to get that through, including re-bidding the project and using some creative accounting to split sections of the project out and use the federal money on those portions and not the portion being made in China.  The determination was made that there just wasn't the capacity to make all of the steel in the US in a reasonable amount of time.  One developer actually was going to build a new steel plant in Washington (I think) to make the steel, which would have been an investment in the US, increased our capacity, made us more competitive for future project, created good jobs, etc., etc.  But the cost and time requirments were shot down.  So it went to China, who jumped right on it and build a new factory to manufacture the matierials.  All of this was approved by a Republican Governor, by the way.  All of this was according to the article. I have no personal knowledge of the details.

It is always a HUGE deal to get foreign materials approved, especially if there is Fed $$ involved.  Cost is rarely a factor.  We usually have to show that it is IMPOSSIBLE to use domestic materials, as in, they don't exist...and even then it might not be approved because there might be some other alternate that can be made to work.  They don't take this stuff lightly.  Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.

[forjj]

Ask Smokinjoe where the High Voltage Transmission Tower Supplies come from.

China,

We owe em, they hate us and we are playing right into thier hands.

Next Super Power.

And they hold our credit notes and want paid back at some point.

Present rates of borrowing is 40 cents on every dollar our government spends.

So at that rate if Obama gets in again, we will be 25 Trillion in the hole to the rest of the world.

OR mainly to China.

Love it or leave it, but you may not have a choice we may get thrown out for not paying the rent.

Go ahead and vote Obama back in but you were warned.

Just FYI, China only hold 8% of the national debt.  Also, the National Debt has increased more under Republican Presidents than Democrats.

[musclehead]

the debt clock.....

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

notice it's at 15 and 3/4 trillion, or 15,746,000,000,000

when Obama took over it was at 10 trillion, so for Obama to keep his campaign promise to cut it in half it would have to be down to 5 trillion.

so tell us again how the Dems are so fiscally responsible?

facts can be so annoying eh? 

[Patrick]

Huumm, Slick Willy left us with 5 trillion [8yrs], George added 4 trillion [8yrs].. And now we are nearly 16 Trillion.. So,, an additional 6+ Trillion in 3 years..  Yep, republicans fault..

[forjj]

Huumm, Slick Willy left us with 5 trillion [8yrs], George added 4 trillion [8yrs].. And now we are nearly 16 Trillion.. So,, an additional 6+ Trillion in 3 years..  Yep, republicans fault..

Obama has currently added about 6 Trillion
Bush 2 actually added 4.9 Trillion
Clinton added a little more than 1.5 Trillion
Bush 1 added a little less than 1.5 Trillion
Reagan added about 1.8 Trillion
Carter added less than .3 Trillion
Ford added less than .2 Trillion

Just thought I would check out the facts of the national debt.  This is according to an artice on the street, which used data from the treasury.  I did the math in my head, so excuse the rough numbers, I didn't want to just cut and paste, and I couldn't find it broken down that way.

The only thing that these numbers don't show is that Clinton left office with a budget surplus(When he left office, The USA was on a pace to eliminate the national debt in 25 years or so), which Bush 2 quickly turned into a massive budget deficit, so I would suggest that the Bush 2 number is artificially low.  And I would also argue that at least a portion of the 6 trillion under Obama might have something to do with a few of the decisions from the Bush presidency, like tax cuts for the wealthy, two wars, TARP, etc.  I agree that Obama has spent a good bit of that 6 Trillion, but it would be hard to argue that all 6 Trillion is Obama's fault. 

There is no simple way of looking at something as complicated as the national debt, but I would say there is more than enough blame for both political parties.  When you dig yourself into a hole this big, there is no way you did it without a little help from others...

[musclehead]

Ask Smokinjoe where the High Voltage Transmission Tower Supplies come from.

China,

We owe em, they hate us and we are playing right into thier hands.

Next Super Power.

And they hold our credit notes and want paid back at some point.

Present rates of borrowing is 40 cents on every dollar our government spends.

So at that rate if Obama gets in again, we will be 25 Trillion in the hole to the rest of the world.

OR mainly to China.

Love it or leave it, but you may not have a choice we may get thrown out for not paying the rent.

Go ahead and vote Obama back in but you were warned.

Do you realize how much money American investors make dealing with China? Do you really think Romney is going to do anything to bite THAT hand? Those are HIS people. If anything is bound to stay the same or get worse under Romney it would be this inequity. Romney does not care about you. Don't make the mistake of thinking otherwise.

Besides, this is more overreaction. China has their own financial reconing coming down the pike.

China's issue has to do with keep it's population employed, a happy man is a working man. the less time they have to protest the happier the government. they have thier own problems.

last I heard China owns about 8% of our debt outstanding.  subject to my bad memory

[The Anvil]

the debt clock.....

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

notice it's at 15 and 3/4 trillion, or 15,746,000,000,000

when Obama took over it was at 10 trillion, so for Obama to keep his campaign promise to cut it in half it would have to be down to 5 trillion.

so tell us again how the Dems are so fiscally responsible?

I'm not sure either side has any claim to anything approaching fiscal responsibility. That's part of why the argument is like clapping with one hand.

[musclehead]

Huumm, Slick Willy left us with 5 trillion [8yrs], George added 4 trillion [8yrs].. And now we are nearly 16 Trillion.. So,, an additional 6+ Trillion in 3 years..  Yep, republicans fault..

BLAME BUSH, BLAME BUSH! (I don't think it's working anymore)

[Thespian]

Quot, Dick Chaney, "Debt doesn't matter" You can't take that back or erase it guys .   

[Serk]

When you dig yourself into a hole this big, there is no way you did it without a little help from others...

Agreed... And... When you dig yourself into a hole this big, the first thing you need to do is STOP DIGGING.

[J.Mencalice]

Huumm, Slick Willy left us with 5 trillion [8yrs], George added 4 trillion [8yrs].. And now we are nearly 16 Trillion.. So,, an additional 6+ Trillion in 3 years..  Yep, republicans fault..

BLAME BUSH, BLAME BUSH! (I don't think it's working anymore)

Bill Clinton left a surplus, friend, Bush waged a war with no financing of it approved by Congress (don'tcha remember "Iraqi oil will pay for it all" road apples?). 
Obama's inheritance was this: A White House back yard full of dog crap that no matter how much you clean up, there's still a few turds that are missed and you inevitably step into.  That's what Bush/Cheney left the good ol' U.S.A when they flew away from the White House in January, 2009.

[hotglue #43]

Obama's inheritance was this: A White House back yard full of dog crap that no matter how much you clean up, there's still a few turds that are missed and you inevitably step into.  [/quote]

At this point...we pretty much know where the 'turd ' is at the White House....  Something we don't wanna step in again.