How Absurd can government get? ? ? ? ?

[3fan4life]

According to a Fox News story A pastor and his wife in Sand Diego, Ca.
are being forced to stop a Bible study in their home or face legislative action from the city of San Diego.

Here is a link to the article so that you can read it for yourself:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html



If you also think that this is absurd then send your thoughts to the Honorable Jerry Sanders, Mayor of Sand Diego and tell him you do not appreciate his city government violating the right to freedom of worship on any American or any citizen of his city.


Here is a email link:
jerrysanders@sandiego.gov

With luck by the end of the week the Mayor's office will be overrun with emails and calls.

It doesn't matter what religion these people are practicing.

What matters is that the government is trying to stop them from practicing it. 

Your voice makes a difference. But it's your choice to speak or stay silent.

Just Remember, the next freedom that could be taken is yours!!

[gregc]

  If the zoning calls for a permit, then why not just buy the permit and comply.  Why make it a big deal.  I wouldn't be allowed to do that where I live without a permit either.  Once a year is one thing every week is another.

[Evil One]

Why in the world should they have to get a permit for a handful of people to get together and talk about their religion?
I am NOT a religious person in any way, but I am not about to even think that people shouldnt be able to get together and discuss it.
If they had a huge amount of people there... selling things... making money... whatever.. then yes, but sitting around... having dinner and discussion.. thats stupid.
That would be like saying that a group of us couldnt get together and have dinner and talk bikes without a permit.


Jim

[..]

  If the zoning calls for a permit, then why not just buy the permit and comply.  Why make it a big deal.  I wouldn't be allowed to do that where I live without a permit either.  Once a year is one thing every week is another.

Hope you have had a permit for all of those anniversaries, birthdays, public holiday parties, wakes, graduation parties, sports watching gatherings  that you've ever held in your home or will in the future.

Some people just don't seem to see the erosion of the individuals freedom that is happening in this country.

Try expanding your horizons and read what is happening in Europe under Left Wing governments.

For all you insular Americans who sit with a smug grin on your face thinking it will never happen here YOU ARE WRONG.

I came to this country in 1993 to get away from the Left Wing loonies in England, now I find that they are coming out of the woodwork here.

[bigvalkriefan]

As of yesterday, San Diego has backed off.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090530/san-diego-county-allows-bible-studies-to-continue-in-home/index.html

[..]

Good.

As a confirmed aetheist I will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone defendign their right of religous freedom (so long as that freedom doesn't include the persecution in any shape of other religions)

[gregc]

  If it is zoned that I, as their neighbor need a permit to have a weekly meeting for what ever at my house,  then they better have to get one too.  Just because they are having a meeting about the bible, doesn't exempt them.  that is my point.  Not to the fact that they have gotten to the point where you need a permit to hold a meeting.

[MP]

So, if you want to have your local VRCC meeting at your house, with 10 members there, you should get a permit from the town??
I would hope not, but this is becoming a different world than the one I grew up in.
MP

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Good.

As a confirmed aetheist I will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone defendign their right of religous freedom (so long as that freedom doesn't include the persecution in any shape of other religions)

( Confirmed Aetheist ) <---Never knew that about you.... Hook me up Paul....When you get to hell please look up Charlie Reed he's the monster that brutally beat my 3 year old nephew to death then commited suicide in the Ocala ,Florida jail house tell him how glad I am he is there...Thanks

[Evil One]

I dunno... I have seen atheists that belong in heaven a lot more than some people who are sure they are going themselves.
Its all personal choices guys, one doesnt make you bad... the other doesnt make you good.
Besides... nobody "knows" what the "right" choice is anyway.


Jim

[3fan4life]

  If it is zoned that I, as their neighbor need a permit to have a weekly meeting for what ever at my house,  then they better have to get one too.  Just because they are having a meeting about the bible, doesn't exempt them.  that is my point.  Not to the fact that they have gotten to the point where you need a permit to hold a meeting.

That's actually exactly the problem,

that any local government would think that they had the right to regulate a meeting of any kind religious or otherwise.

That is taking place inside a private residence.

If this is allowed where does it end?

Do you have to apply for a permit to celebrate your kids birthdays or your parents 50th wedding anniversary? 

[3fan4life]

I dunno... I have seen atheists that belong in heaven a lot more than some people who are sure they are going themselves.
Its all personal choices guys, one doesnt make you bad... the other doesnt make you good.

You are correct in that it is not what religion a person follows that makes them good or bad.

That depends upon what is in a persons heart.

Besides... nobody "knows" what the "right" choice is anyway.

No people don't "Know", they "Believe".

"FAITH" is the cornerstone of all religions.

My FAITH is in JESUS CHRIST.

I BELIEVE that I am right.

But, I won't hold it against you or anyone else if their belief isn't the same as mine.

Too many Christians have given Christianity a bad name because they mistakingly think that they must change the beliefs of others.

To "Witness for Christ" does not mean that you are to browbeat people until they believe also, it simply means that if given the opportunity you shouldn't be ashamed to tell others what and why you "Believe". 

[Iron Mike]

I believe in God.  I do not believe in religion.  Religion is nothing more than man misleading man and pushing his own theories on others, no matter how good their intent.  You should be free to do as you choose.  Dont persecute.  Stop trying to save everyone.  Dont tell people that they are going to hell because they dont agree with your belief system.  I dont believe any man can show me GOD or anyone else.  Everyone has their own path to enlightenment.  Let them find it themselves.  I could go on and on.  Require a permit for a bible group?  Come on that is crazy.  They dont reguire one for Satanic rituals! 

[Willy]

We Athiest are not evil people. As long as your faith doesn't interfere with my rights, do your thing. Seperation of Church and State is extremely important for everyone.

[Serk]

Good.

As a confirmed aetheist I will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone defendign their right of religous freedom (so long as that freedom doesn't include the persecution in any shape of other religions)

( Confirmed Aetheist ) <---Never knew that about you.... Hook me up Paul....When you get to hell please look up Charlie Reed he's the monster that brutally beat my 3 year old nephew to death then commited suicide in the Ocala ,Florida jail house tell him how glad I am he is there...Thanks

Wow..... Just..... Wow..... 

[Evil One]

You are correct in that it is not what religion a person follows that makes them good or bad.

That depends upon what is in a persons heart.

No people don't "Know", they "Believe".

"FAITH" is the cornerstone of all religions.

My FAITH is in JESUS CHRIST.

I BELIEVE that I am right.

But, I won't hold it against you or anyone else if their belief isn't the same as mine.

Too many Christians have given Christianity a bad name because they mistakingly think that they must change the beliefs of others.

To "Witness for Christ" does not mean that you are to browbeat people until they believe also, it simply means that if given the opportunity you shouldn't be ashamed to tell others what and why you "Believe". 

If people actually "knew" it would ruin their religion.
A lot of people try to do the right thing in the hope that doing the right thing will get them where they want to go.
Knowing would be the destruction of faith, believing in something that cant be proven.

I try to do right because... well, its the right thing and I try and be a good person. Not for personal gain.

I was a student of religion for years, many different faiths.
Personally I feel that having faith is a wonderful thing, but many people use religion for personal gain.
Either they are in it to gain a better feeling for themselves or for "networking", or for a feeling of superiority.
And I know all too many who seem to only use their religion for belittling others.

Sorry, we are all people... none are better than the other for their beliefs.
What you do as a person is what matters.


Jim

[rmrc51]

I believe in God.  I do not believe in religion.  Religion is nothing more than man misleading man and pushing his own theories on others, no matter how good their intent.  You should be free to do as you choose.  Dont persecute.  Stop trying to save everyone.  Dont tell people that they are going to hell because they dont agree with your belief system.  I dont believe any man can show me GOD or anyone else.  Everyone has their own path to enlightenment.  Let them find it themselves.  I could go on and on.  Require a permit for a bible group?  Come on that is crazy.  They dont reguire one for Satanic rituals!  

I couldn't agree with you more Iron Mike!!!! Religions are nothing more that man made rules passed down over the years and open to the interpretation of each generation who chose to re-write, delete or create new laws. If there is  God up there,,, and I "TRULY" hope there is,,, he/she knows whats in my heart!!! I do believe that there is something after this life!

As far as having to have a "PERMIT",,,, to hold a Bible Study, or any social gathering ,, in you own house,,, not making any noise,,,, not disrupting neighbors,,,, not forcing your beliefs on others???????? Does Nazi Germany ring a bell????? This country is going to hell in a hand basket if we let idiots in government get away this kind of lunacy!

[Chrisj CMA]

I dunno... I have seen atheists that belong in heaven a lot more than some people who are sure they are going themselves.
Its all personal choices guys, one doesnt make you bad... the other doesnt make you good.
Besides... nobody "knows" what the "right" choice is anyway.


Jim

I cant help it......gotta jump in here........good people dont go to heaven, and bad people dont go to hell.  None of us are good enough to meet Gods standards on our own, that why we shouldnt judge each other......were all the same to God.  Forgiven people go to heaven and you cant be forgiven without believing Jesus Christ (GOD in the flesh) is your savior.  Athiests by definition cannot do this.......that doesnt make them a worse person, it just makes it impossible for them to be forgiven by God.

Peace, hope y'all are ready because the test at the end is getting mighty close

PS....when you have the "right answer" living inside of you, you know it.......no denying it, cant fully explain it..........kind of like pushing the envelope on a dangerous curve and living........you feel it, YOU KNOW"  God is real, when you are forgiven YOU KNOW.......try it, youll like it

[franco6]

 ;Dwe all know to have areligious group or church there is always a catalist or preacher .many of these are a business. with their house as a church they pay no taxes ,and are entittled free money.amen

[..]

Good.

As a confirmed aetheist I will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone defendign their right of religous freedom (so long as that freedom doesn't include the persecution in any shape of other religions)

( Confirmed Aetheist ) <---Never knew that about you.... Hook me up Paul....When you get to hell please look up Charlie Reed he's the monster that brutally beat my 3 year old nephew to death then commited suicide in the Ocala ,Florida jail house tell him how glad I am he is there...Thanks

I'll go one better Joe. I'll stomp his face!

[3fan4life]

I sent the following E-mail to Mayor Jerry Sanders this morning:


Mayor Sanders,

The purpose of this E-Mail is to register my support for David and Mary Jones and their RIGHT to hold a bible study in THEIR home.

Religious Freedom is the cornerstone of the foundation that this GREAT Nation is built upon. Being free to worship as you wish without the fear of persecution is the ONE Great freedoms that we as Americans enjoy that most of the people of the world do not.

Additionally, no Government local or otherwise should be able to dictate what gatherings people may have within the confines of their own homes. If allowed to continue, Where does the madness end? Will parents face jail or fines if they fail to procure a permit to celebrate their child's FIRST Birthday? Will a grieving widow be hauled away in handcuffs because friends and family have gathered at her house to comfort her in her time of need?

I am aware that a second report indicates that the city has "backed-off" for now and that the Jones' will be allowed to continue their Home Bible study group. This is a positive step in the right direction to correct a problem that should never have occured in the first place. I encourage you to look into your city ordinance and fix the problem. No-one living in any community in America should face prosecution or persecution for a peaceful gathering of anykind taking place within the confines of their home.

Respectfully,

Mark Nelson


I realize that this is only my 2 cents worth.

But, if people don't start standing up to the Government and register their oppinion against things when they are wrong the madness will never end.


 

[Evil One]

3fan, great email.

The whole "good people dont go to heaven, bad people dont go to hell" line is one thing that turned me away from organized religion.
If a person can be a bad person... and I do mean BAD... but can say a few words and get the gold key to the gates, thats something I really have no desire to be a part of.
If I live my life, as well as a man can... and it isnt good enough, then I will rest happy in knowing I was a better person than most.
I tend to do the right thing for the benefit of others, not to make myself feel good. Seeing the happiness and/or appreciation on a persons face and knowing that they may take some of the goodness they have received and pass it on to another is worth more than anything else in the world to me.
I have worked with the homeless, the poor, runaways, disaster victims... not for any gain, here or in an afterlife... but because thats what people should do.

Most people that consider themselves better, more pious, or walking the proper path have not come close to what I have done in making the world a better place for those who truly need it.

If there is a heaven... and I truly hope that in some way, shape or form there is... and people who have done n good for their fellow man, or may have even done harm, have a better chance than those who have done good thruout all of their life... why would you want to be a part of it?


Jim

[junior]

i aint religious by no means but take out the words bible study and replace it NASCAR. so if they have a few friends over for a meal and nascar  they are gonna need a permit?

[Charlie]

I sent a similar email to the mayor as 3fan, and agree with him whole-heartedly.

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Good.

As a confirmed aetheist I will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone defendign their right of religous freedom (so long as that freedom doesn't include the persecution in any shape of other religions)

( Confirmed Aetheist ) <---Never knew that about you.... Hook me up Paul....When you get to hell please look up Charlie Reed he's the monster that brutally beat my 3 year old nephew to death then commited suicide in the Ocala ,Florida jail house tell him how glad I am he is there...Thanks

I'll go one better Joe. I'll stomp his face!

That would be much appreciated 

[Chrisj CMA]

If a person can be a bad person... and I do mean BAD... but can say a few words and get the gold key to the gates, thats something I really have no desire to be a part of.
If I live my life, as well as a man can... and it isnt good enough, then I will rest happy in knowing I was a better person than most.

Then this one:

most people that consider themselves better, more pious, or walking the proper path have not come close to what I have done in making the world a better place for those who truly need it.
Jim

We all make our choices Jim.  Sounds like you are betting on some good deeds.  I just want to say that bad person you spoke of cant just say a few golden words, its a genuine change of heart that is required.  I know you are mighty PROUD of your accomplishments, but Im sorry unless you can forgive sin, raise folks from the dead, walk on water and create the world.....you are no better than ANYONE else, no matter what you tell yourself.

Im not big on organized religion either.  Religion is mans invention to reach up to GOD.  Im all for relationship with Christ.  Thats Gods way of bringing us to Him.  Christianity is not a Religion, its a relationship...without that relationship were all just a bunch of sinners no one better than the next.  


Peace

[Evil One]

Pride? No, not at all. More of an example of how people should live.
Where did I say I was better than anyone? I said I do more than most people... nowhere have I suggested that I am any better.
And, since you brought up pride... I figure you see that as a sin.
Please point out in the bible where it NAMES pride as a sin.
Proverbs 6:17 says "A proud look".
Sorry guy, it doesnt apply to this situation. I am happy to do for others, I call out to others to do for others.
Is this pride?
No, this is calling for people to do good by their fellow man.
If you have issue with anything I have said, maybe you need to look within to figure out why.


Jim

[Chrisj CMA]

Interesting........you diss Christians for saying Christ is the example to follow.....yet you hold yourself up as the "real" example.  I never said pride was a sin.  The Bible does say pride goeth before a fall and that the pride of life and lusts of the flesh lead a person to sin..............

You sound like a mighty fine person......Im serious........its just that my example to try to follow needs to be way better than just a mighty fine person

[Evil One]

Where have I "dissed Christians" for saying that Christ is the example to follow?
As far as I know... I am following Christs example.
Is he not known for his deeds towards his fellow men?
People should follow the example he set, kindness and helping their fellow man... not just tossing a few bucks into the hat and saying a few prayers.


Jim

[Chrisj CMA]

OK, Cool finally we agree!!!!!!  Peace to you my brother

[3fan4life]

As far as I know... I am following Christs example.
Is he not known for his deeds towards his fellow men?
People should follow the example he set, kindness and helping their fellow man...

I have often said that even if people did not believe that Jesus was their savior. If they would live their lives by the example that he set that the world would be a better place for all of us.

If everyone would do their best to live their lives the way that he taught us to live them. We'd all live in a much better place.

not just tossing a few bucks into the hat and saying a few prayers.

Because, human nature is what it is. We have hypocrits in all walks of life. There are people of all religions and walks of life that profess to do one thing and practice another. Some People are always trying to be something that they are not.  

 

[G-Man]

The whole thing is based upon a belief, not proof.  That one would have to say that "I believe" or another has to ask "Do you believe?" rather than something just being....should raise flags and questions.  To give up all sense of reality, relinquish aspects of higher thought processes, is mind boggling to me.

I was born into the Jewish religion and went to Hebrew school as I was "supposed" to.  I misbehaved there as I did in "regular" school and was excused from the class and placed in a one to one tutorial thing with the Rabii himself.  I confessed, at that age, that I had a hard time throwing away reality for a belief.  He told me I was being a good Jew because I questioned religion and faith.  That all good followers should spend their lives questioning and challenging their religion and faith.  Only then, can one be sure.

I'm not saying that Judiasm is better than any other religion, I certainly don't believe that.  The fact that there are thousands of religions, speaking to the one same God, different Gods, multiple gods, has to throw a monkey wrench into ones belief.  It does for me.

[3fan4life]

The whole thing is based upon a belief, not proof.  That one would have to say that "I believe" or another has to ask "Do you believe?" rather than something just being....should raise flags and questions.  To give up all sense of reality, relinquish aspects of higher thought processes, is mind boggling to me.

I was born into the Jewish religion and went to Hebrew school as I was "supposed" to.  I misbehaved there as I did in "regular" school and was excused from the class and placed in a one to one tutorial thing with the Rabii himself.  I confessed, at that age, that I had a hard time throwing away reality for a belief.  He told me I was being a good Jew because I questioned religion and faith.  That all good followers should spend their lives questioning and challenging their religion and faith.  Only then, can one be sure.

I'm not saying that Judiasm is better than any other religion, I certainly don't believe that.  The fact that there are thousands of religions, speaking to the one same God, different Gods, multiple gods, has to throw a monkey wrench into ones belief.  It does for me.

I think that the first reason that most of us "Believe" what we do is because of what we were taught as children.

I think that the reason people develop faith is because of their life experiences.

I was raised as a Christian and taught to believe in Jesus.

I have developed my faith over the years because of the times that prayers were answered in my life or my needs were met and divine intervention was the only explanation.

There are two things that you cannot talk a person into changing their Beliefs and their Faith.

It's completely pointless to try.     

I fully understand why people follow different religions, why they believe different things.

Faith.... is pretty much the same thing no matter what the persons belief is.

The basic concept of faith never changes no matter who or what the person has faith in.

For example..... each time that you sit in a chair without checking its structural soundness before you sit down.

You have exhibited faith in that chairs ability to support you.

Granted, having faith in God is more profound and complicated than having faith in a chair, but the basic concept is the same.


Like I said, I understand the concept of multiple religious beliefs.

What I don't understand is how people can profess to believe that there is no God at all.

I don't understand how someone can look at all the wonders of nature and say that there is no God.

I don't understand how someone can stand on top of a mountain looking out over the valley below and say that there is no God.

I don't understand how someone can stand in the desert on a moonless night looking at the millions of stars in the sky and say that there is no God.


Personally when I've done these things, the thought that crossed my mind was, "Wow God is awesome!"

[..]

So's evolution 

[3fan4life]

So's evolution 

I also don't understand why some people tend to think that Evolution and Creationism cannot co-exist.

I just figure that evolution is also a part of God's plan.

[MP]

Thank you, 3fan4life:

I have also never understood the:
1. God made it this way, and it has always been this way forever.
2. Therefore, evolution and God are mutually exclusive.

God was smart enough to do all this, I think evolution is part of his big plan.  I see NO CONFLICT at all.

I farm.  I agree, as I see animals being born.  The faith of planting a seed, and you know, it sprouts every year!  Watching it grow.  Babies growing up into adults. Nature is endless proof of some type of God, believe in which type as you will.  All this came from somewhere in the beginning.

MP

[Chrisj CMA]

So's evolution 

I also don't understand why some people tend to think that Evolution and Creationism cannot co-exist.

I just figure that evolution is also a part of God's plan.

Evolution to a point.......people have gotten taller, some animals evolved their capabilities to suit their environments.......BUT God created a difference between animals and mankind.  We are created in His image NOT animals.  So theres no way we came from the animal world and "evolved" into humans.  Thats where I draw the line as far as me being able to accept evolution as part of Gods plan, it is...to a point I think IMHO of coourse

[3fan4life]

Evolution to a point.......people have gotten taller, some animals evolved their capabilities to suit their environments.......BUT God created a difference between animals and mankind.  We are created in His image NOT animals.  So theres no way we came from the animal world and "evolved" into humans.  Thats where I draw the line as far as me being able to accept evolution as part of Gods plan, it is...to a point I think IMHO of coourse

Alot of people get up in arms because they think that Darwin said that man came from ape.

He didn't, Darwin said that man and ape evolved from a common ancestor the "missing link".

We know through fossil evidence that man has not always looked the same as he does now.

There is alot of debate within the scientific community about the theory of evolution.

I'm content to let them argue about it, I'll settle for a much more simplistic view:

God created man that is a fact.  Cavemen, didn't look like we do that is also a fact.

I believe that the Bible is the word of God.

And so I believe that God created the world and all of the creatures in it.

But, I also believe that the story of creation in the Bible was written as a simplistic view.

And it was done that way on purpose so that man could understand it. 

In other words all of the complicated details (i.e. the science) were left out.

[..]

Evolution to a point.......people have gotten taller, some animals evolved their capabilities to suit their environments.......BUT God created a difference between animals and mankind.  We are created in His image NOT animals.  So theres no way we came from the animal world and "evolved" into humans.  Thats where I draw the line as far as me being able to accept evolution as part of Gods plan, it is...to a point I think IMHO of coourse

Alot of people get up in arms because they think that Darwin said that man came from ape.

He didn't, Darwin said that man and ape evolved from a common ancestor the "missing link".

We know through fossil evidence that man has not always looked the same as he does now.

There is alot of debate within the scientific community about the theory of evolution.

I'm content to let them argue about it, I'll settle for a much more simplistic view:

God created man that is a fact.  Cavemen, didn't look like we do that is also a fact.

I believe that the Bible is the word of God.

And so I believe that God created the world and all of the creatures in it.

But, I also believe that the story of creation in the Bible was written as a simplistic view.

And it was done that way on purpose so that man could understand it. 

In other words all of the complicated details (i.e. the science) were left out.

OK I'll take the hook. "God created man that is a fact. "

Show me the proof. Thanks.

See here we go again someone with strong religous beliefs is going to hammer their point home until the rest of us go away or roll over and agree.

WHY OH WHY DO WE ALL HAVE TO AGREE!!!!

[3fan4life]

OK I'll take the hook. "God created man that is a fact. "

Show me the proof. Thanks.

See here we go again someone with strong religous beliefs is going to hammer their point home until the rest of us go away or roll over and agree.

WHY OH WHY DO WE ALL HAVE TO AGREE!!!!

I am not trying to beat anyone with a hammer.

Shoot, I'm not even trying to beat anyone with a wet noodle.

You don't have to agree with me and I don't have to agree with you.

I am not trying in any way to "change" anyones beliefs.

I was simply stating what I believe.

There is alot of debate within the scientific community about the theory of evolution.

I'm content to let them argue about it, I'll settle for a much more simplistic  view:

God created man that is a fact.  Cavemen, didn't look like we do that is also a fact.

If you or anyone else doesn't "buy it" that's OK.

I'll still ride with you, I'll still speak to you and I'll still shake your hand the next time that we meet.

People have a right to believe anything that they choose to believe.

The problem comes from the people that think everyone has to believe the same as them.

Trust me, I am not one of those people.

I can disagree with you and still respect your right to your own beliefs.

As long as you respect my right to mine, and from your first couple of posts in this thread I know that you do.  



So, can I prove to you that God exists?

No, if the only thing that will make you believe in the existence of God is for him to stand before you I cannot.

I can only say that to say that there is no God means that everything on the Earth just "happened".

I can't "buy" that, to me the complexity of it all suggests that Intelligent Design is the only explanation.


Again, that is what I believe.

You don't have to believe it.

I'm only saying that nothing else makes sense to me.