Drive shaft,pinion cup....splain me

[Davemn]

Once I have the rear wheel off, what do I do to remove the drive shaft to check the U-joint and pinion cup lube? Is it tricky? Planning on a long ride and want to make sure its all good. Suggest Honda Moly 60 or Belray for the lube? Thanks

[tank_post142]

on the frt of the final drive there are 4 bolts remove them and the whole final drive and drive shaft wil pull back and away from the swingarm. hold the driveshaft/final drive by the shaft over soft soil or a pile of rags and shake it hard up and down till the final drive drops from the shaft.go to the frt of the swing arm on the right and pull the rubber boot back and remove the ujoint from the output shaft .

[UskCoastie]

Just did mine today. If not already removed, remove the rt shock lower mount bolt. Then undo the four 14 mm nuts holding on the final drive. Remove the final drive and shaft from the swing arm and set aside. Next remove the front end of the dust boot for the u joint. Then slide the u joint off the output shaft. Next remove the boot by drawing between the u joint and the output shaft. Then remove the u joint from the swung arm. To remove the shaft from the final drive pull the shaft straight out from the final drive. Clean, inspect, lubricate, and reinstall in reverse order. Hopefully your shaft seal will not be cut with the spring hanging out like mine was. Fortunately I had a spare shaft and seal so mine is done. Now for belts, oil, coolant, electrical cleanup, and a front end inspection.

The bike arrived last Sunday. 1999 naked CT with 4774 miles.

[97BLKVALK]

Always love a naked 99.  30 more than 69      Low miles.  Hope you enjoy your fat lady!

Michael
Ride Safe.

[Jabba]

I don't think you're supposed to GREASE the driveshaft and pinion cup.  There are fluid holes in the base of the pinion cup that scoop final drive oil into the pinion cup.  Clog those with grease and it's a bad deal.

I read somewhere that all you should use is a VERY light coat of anti-Seize.  That's how I do it.  I tore mine down a week ago after 7000 miles and a year after doing it last year and they were SLOPPY wet with final drive oil like they should be.

YMMV.

Jabba

[Mallett]

I don't think you're supposed to GREASE the driveshaft and pinion cup.  There are fluid holes in the base of the pinion cup that scoop final drive oil into the pinion cup.  Clog those with grease and it's a bad deal.

I read somewhere that all you should use is a VERY light coat of anti-Seize.  That's how I do it.  I tore mine down a week ago after 7000 miles and a year after doing it last year and they were SLOPPY wet with final drive oil like they should be.

YMMV.

Jabba

Jabba, I'm replacing my back tire & have my final drive out. I'm in agreement with you on the driveshaft & pinion cup...just a light grease..why would Honda have put the holes in the bottom of the pinion cup if they weren't for oiling?

[Chrisj CMA]

I don't think you're supposed to GREASE the driveshaft and pinion cup.  There are fluid holes in the base of the pinion cup that scoop final drive oil into the pinion cup.  Clog those with grease and it's a bad deal.

I read somewhere that all you should use is a VERY light coat of anti-Seize.  That's how I do it.  I tore mine down a week ago after 7000 miles and a year after doing it last year and they were SLOPPY wet with final drive oil like they should be.

YMMV.

Jabba

Jabba, I'm replacing my back tire & have my final drive out. I'm in agreement with you on the driveshaft & pinion cup...just a light grease..why would Honda have put the holes in the bottom of the pinion cup if they weren't for oiling?

Why would the Honda Service Manual say on page 12-19 "pack 2g (0.08oz) of moly grease in the pinion joint spline".  You guys do what you want.  Ill continue to use the grease and have a perfect drive shaft after 130K miles.  

[Mallett]

I don't think you're supposed to GREASE the driveshaft and pinion cup.  There are fluid holes in the base of the pinion cup that scoop final drive oil into the pinion cup.  Clog those with grease and it's a bad deal.

I read somewhere that all you should use is a VERY light coat of anti-Seize.  That's how I do it.  I tore mine down a week ago after 7000 miles and a year after doing it last year and they were SLOPPY wet with final drive oil like they should be.

YMMV.

Jabba

Jabba, I'm replacing my back tire & have my final drive out. I'm in agreement with you on the driveshaft & pinion cup...just a light grease..why would Honda have put the holes in the bottom of the pinion cup if they weren't for oiling?

Why would the Honda Service Manual say on page 12-19 "pack 2g (0.08oz) of moly grease in the pinion joint spline".  You guys do what you want.  Ill continue to use the grease and have a perfect drive shaft after 130K miles.  

2g is not very much grease, Chrisj....why do you think the holes are in the bottom of the pinion cup??

[sandy]

The holes are location holes for multiple machining steps during manufacturing. They also provide a vent when you push the seal into the cup. I asked the cup question to a Honda rep at the Hoot a few years ago. He said no drive line engineer would want the gear oil to mix with greased splines and then run back down into the ring and pinion assembly. I use a liberal amount of Valvoline  Durablend(3% moly) and have no drive line issues (130K). Never have found gear oil in the shaft cup. Holes are clear.

[Chrisj CMA]

I don't think you're supposed to GREASE the driveshaft and pinion cup.  There are fluid holes in the base of the pinion cup that scoop final drive oil into the pinion cup.  Clog those with grease and it's a bad deal.

I read somewhere that all you should use is a VERY light coat of anti-Seize.  That's how I do it.  I tore mine down a week ago after 7000 miles and a year after doing it last year and they were SLOPPY wet with final drive oil like they should be.

YMMV.

Jabba

Jabba, I'm replacing my back tire & have my final drive out. I'm in agreement with you on the driveshaft & pinion cup...just a light grease..why would Honda have put the holes in the bottom of the pinion cup if they weren't for oiling?

Why would the Honda Service Manual say on page 12-19 "pack 2g (0.08oz) of moly grease in the pinion joint spline".  You guys do what you want.  Ill continue to use the grease and have a perfect drive shaft after 130K miles.  

2g is not very much grease, Chrisj....why do you think the holes are in the bottom of the pinion cup??

The pinion spline area is not that large I have never neasured the grease....It looks like this when Im ready to install the drive shaft.  Has been perfect for 11 years

before grease

[John Schmidt]

Another little known item re. the end of the driveshaft....that spring/clip on the end isn't needed. I'm talking about the end that goes in the pinion cup. A few years ago during a tour of the Marysville plant, I engaged a Honda tech in conversation and the final drive came up. That small spring clip that keeps the shaft in place is actually something installed to assist in the assembly process during manufacture of the bike. He said that beyond that point, that clip is no longer needed. That may well be true, but for me and my ride I'll keep it in place. But when you think about it, after the whole rear end is reassembled, that shaft isn't going anywhere. The spring on the front end keeps it seated during swingarm movement up & down.

[Chrisj CMA]

Another little known item re. the end of the driveshaft....that spring/clip on the end isn't needed. I'm talking about the end that goes in the pinion cup. A few years ago during a tour of the Marysville plant, I engaged a Honda tech in conversation and the final drive came up. That small spring clip that keeps the shaft in place is actually something installed to assist in the assembly process during manufacture of the bike. He said that beyond that point, that clip is no longer needed. That may well be true, but for me and my ride I'll keep it in place. But when you think about it, after the whole rear end is reassembled, that shaft isn't going anywhere. The spring on the front end keeps it seated during swingarm movement up & down.

I agree John......I keep mine in there too.  Obviously we all have found out that some parts just arent needed much...like when you finish a job and there are bits left over but everything still works.  That doesnt mean it was a good thing.

I dont have any parts left over working on Valkyries.....I have done the rear wheel so many times I know the parts.......I tend to think if there is a part and a place for it to fit and a function no matter how redundant or overly engineered for reliability sake I want it in place

[Mallett]

I just went & did a test....I stood my final drive up with the pinion cup down on my work bench....waited a few minutes....guess what was on the table? final drive oil!!!! came thru the little hole....

[Chrisj CMA]

I just went & did a test....I stood my final drive up with the pinion cup down on my work bench....waited a few minutes....guess what was on the table? final drive oil!!!! came thru the little hole....

LOL...I cudda told you that.......lay it on the bench with the chrome cap down, wait a minute and oil will pour out of there too, doesnt mean its supposed to all the time.  So quit making a mess of oil everywhere, and be careful when riding down a hill so steep that the drive shaft becomes vertical.....that may let oil leak out  

[Mallett]

I just went & did a test....I stood my final drive up with the pinion cup down on my work bench....waited a few minutes....guess what was on the table? final drive oil!!!! came thru the little hole....

LOL...I cudda told you that.......lay it on the bench with the chrome cap down, wait a minute and oil will pour out of there too, doesnt mean its supposed to all the time.  So quit making a mess of oil everywhere, and be careful when riding down a hill so steep that the drive shaft becomes vertical.....that may let oil leak out  

LOL, Chrisj....just went to make local Honda shop....I ask them what grease I should put in my pinion cup..without hesitation he said the it is lubed from the final drive oil....That chrome cap is a vent, so of course it would leak from there....why would it leak out the holes in the pinion cup???

[Mallett]

I don't think you're supposed to GREASE the driveshaft and pinion cup.  There are fluid holes in the base of the pinion cup that scoop final drive oil into the pinion cup.  Clog those with grease and it's a bad deal.

I read somewhere that all you should use is a VERY light coat of anti-Seize.  That's how I do it.  I tore mine down a week ago after 7000 miles and a year after doing it last year and they were SLOPPY wet with final drive oil like they should be.

YMMV.

Jabba

Jabba, I think you are right on this.....I'm gonna put a light coat of CV joint grease (3% moly disulfide) on mine before putting it together...

[Patrick]

I too have not had any oil in the cup[15 yrs].. I removed the cup recently just to see what everything actually looked like and the holes and flats were there.. So this time I used very little grease in the cup and on the shaft and added a bit of oil as the shaft was inserted.. We'll see if there is any oil left in a couple years when it comes apart again..

[Daniel Meyer]

I don't think you're supposed to GREASE the driveshaft and pinion cup.  There are fluid holes in the base of the pinion cup that scoop final drive oil into the pinion cup.  Clog those with grease and it's a bad deal.

I read somewhere that all you should use is a VERY light coat of anti-Seize.  That's how I do it.  I tore mine down a week ago after 7000 miles and a year after doing it last year and they were SLOPPY wet with final drive oil like they should be.

YMMV.

Jabba

Jabba, I think you are right on this.....I'm gonna put a light coat of CV joint grease (3% moly disulfide) on mine before putting it together...

This is correct...the light grease (not paste) is assembly lube. Honda calls for a moly grease here (again, not paste). Long term the joint is lubed by the rear end oil. (I was a Honda cert. Mechanic in a former life). Not gonna argue it here. Come to Inzane for the tech sessions and I'll show you.

You should tear it down and clean the crap out of it every 20k miles or so...this is the weakness in the honda manual...it does not call to regularly service this joint.

[Jabba]

I do this with anti-seize.  like he said... assembly lube. 

Think about it this way... if you pack it with grease... where does that grease go?  Into your rearend oil.  You want grease contaminating your final drive oil?  Not me.  Everyone can make their own decision. 

I have seen what mine look like when I take them apart, and its clean and sloppy wet with final drive oil.

Jabba

[Ricky-D]

There's no mechanism for lube oil to be pumped into the pinion cup.

If you overfill the pumpkin the possibility will be present that oil will then be pushed into the pinion cup.

Whether or not this (overfill) is a good idea remains to be determined.

There have been posts occasionally regarding overfilling the pumpkin. Heat is the crux of the matter.

***

[Mallett]

Jabba, what do you use on the wheel spline?

[hubcapsc]

The holes are location holes for multiple machining steps during manufacturing. They also provide a vent when you push the seal into the cup. I asked the cup question to a Honda rep at the Hoot a few years ago. He said no drive line engineer would want the gear oil to mix with greased splines and then run back down into the ring and pinion assembly. I use a liberal amount of Valvoline  Durablend(3% moly) and have no drive line issues (130K). Never have found gear oil in the shaft cup. Holes are clear.

Maybe, maybe not 

Lubrication mechanism in final drive and differential units

Abstract

In a final drive and differential unit comprising a ring gear integral with
a differential gear unit rotatably mounted within a carrier, and a drive
pinion shaft supported by a pair of axially spaced bearings within a
cylindrical support structure of the carrier, the shaft extends outwardly
through an oil seal member mounted within an outer end portion of the
support structure and is provided at its inner end with a drive pinion in
mesh with the ring gear. The support structure is formed at one side
thereof with an enlarged portion formed therein with an oil supply passage
opening at its one end into the carrier at the same side as the ring gear
and is formed at the other side thereof with another enlarged portion formed
therein with an oil return passage opening at its opposite ends into the
carrier and into a first annular space between the oil seal member and the
bearing. The support structure is formed in its side wall with first and
second lateral holes respectively for communication between the oil supply
passage and a second annular space between the bearings and for communication
between the oil supply passage and the first annular space. The lowermost
edge of the second lateral hole is positioned below the lowermost edge of
the first lateral hole to ensure the flow of lubricating oil into the first
annular space passing across the second lateral hole.

Inventors:    Hori; Hiroshi (Toyota, JP), Taniyama; Kiyoshi (Toyota, JP)
Assignee:    Toyota Jidosha Kabushiki Kaisha (JP)
Appl. No.:    06/682,144
Filed:    December 17, 1984

[whitestroke]

Took mine apart with only 3,500 miles and it was sloppy wet.

[Patrick]

I'm so glad to hear that there is a lot of communication between the first and second annular spaces.. I wouldn't want either one to get lonely..

[Jabba]

Jabba, what do you use on the wheel spline?

I use Honda moly 60 paste.  But i suspect frequent service is more important than WHAT it's serviced with.

YMMV.

Jabba

[Mallett]

Think you're right again, Jabba....

[art]

Another little known item re. the end of the driveshaft....that spring/clip on the end isn't needed. I'm talking about the end that goes in the pinion cup. A few years ago during a tour of the Marysville plant, I engaged a Honda tech in conversation and the final drive came up. That small spring clip that keeps the shaft in place is actually something installed to assist in the assembly process during manufacture of the bike. He said that beyond that point, that clip is no longer needed. That may well be true, but for me and my ride I'll keep it in place. But when you think about it, after the whole rear end is reassembled, that shaft isn't going anywhere. The spring on the front end keeps it seated during swingarm movement up & down.

I agree John......I keep mine in there too.  Obviously we all have found out that some parts just arent needed much...like when you finish a job and there are bits left over but everything still works.  That doesnt mean it was a good thing.

I dont have any parts left over working on Valkyries.....I have done the rear wheel so many times I know the parts.......I tend to think if there is a part and a place for it to fit and a function no matter how redundant or overly engineered for reliability sake I want it in place

When I have leftover parts I put them the in that little hole below the dipstick with the black plastic screw plug.

[hubcapsc]

There have been posts occasionally regarding overfilling the pumpkin.

How can one overfill the final drive? I guess you could take the vent cap off and fill
it all the way up from there. I guess you could lay your bike on its side and put too
much in. Or maybe you could remove the final drive and lay it on its side
on the table and put too much in.

Anywho... the mechanism for getting the final drive fluid into the pinion cup is
the holes in the bottom of the pinion cup.

-Mike "Art used to overfill his when he used to put his leftover parts in there  "