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Author Topic: Walmart encounter  (Read 3743 times)
Gavin_Sons
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VRCC# 32796

columbus indiana


« on: January 13, 2013, 05:07:45 PM »

Was at our local walmart tonight. As we were leaving the parking lot my wife said watch that car. He came speedind down one of the aisles toward the exit. I was in the right of way lane and he pulls out in front of me. Having my pregnant wife and my 2 year old in the car with me I got close to him but let him go. As soon as he pulled out I honked at him, he slammed on his brakes got out and flipped me off. I rolled down the window and said old man if you are in such a hurry you should have skipped the walmart visit. He screamed something back at me, then I said its been a long time since I have beat the living hell out of someone. Im normally pretty laid back and stuff like that dosent bother me, but my family was with me and I lost it. He still couldnt see me since he was in front of out car with the lights shinning on him and our car windows are tinted dark. He srarted walking toward our car and thats when I really went into defense mode. I got out of the car and his eyes got big and started walking backward fumbling for his car door apologizing. Dont know if he thought I was a woman at first or what. I said you better get your obama voting stupid ass back in that car. Of course he had a obama sticker on his car. He finally sped off. My wife said, do you think he seen your gun? I said no, he just realized he screwed up and didnt want to visit the hospital tonight. We made it home without any other incidents.
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eric in md
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ride hard now we all can rest when were gone !!!

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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 05:13:17 PM »

im with you .. thats just another reason not to deal with walmarts.. they suck .
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tonyfan70
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Apparently they know you?

Central Illinois


« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 05:22:04 PM »

Yeah, the worst people shop at Walmart.

Wait. You were at Walmart too? ???
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Gavin_Sons
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VRCC# 32796

columbus indiana


« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2013, 05:25:21 PM »

I was. Guilty!
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HayHauler
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Pearland, TX


« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2013, 05:51:14 PM »

im with you .. thats just another reason not to deal with walmarts.. they suck .
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GiG
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« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2013, 05:58:24 PM »

Post Of The Week, Gavins Crack me up  2funny
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Davemn
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Minnetrista, Minnesota


« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2013, 05:59:03 PM »

 With all due respect.......To confront a total stranger with your pregnant wife and child in the car is just stupid. How did you know he would back down ? How did you know he wasnt carrying? How did you know he couldnt have taken you out with 1 punch? You put yourself and your familyin a very vulnerable position. There is always someone bigger, faster, smarter. Always. You got lucky this time.
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tank_post142
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south florida


« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2013, 06:07:21 PM »

yes! it would be best to just back off and go home like a big Pu$$ after all get used to it because you soon will go to prison for being independent and having an original thought. CONSUME, OBEY.
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VRCCDS0246 
Gavin_Sons
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VRCC# 32796

columbus indiana


« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2013, 06:10:52 PM »

I must be a lucky guy, because everyone I have ever confronted has backed down and apologized. Dont get me wrong, I have been in the wrong alot also, and I admit my mistakes. But when someone gets out of their car and gives me the finger and screams at me I take that as a threat. And if someone is going to threaten me they will do it to my face or turn and run.  That wasnt you tonight at walmart was it davemn?  Grin
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cookiedough
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southern WI


« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2013, 06:11:13 PM »

With all due respect.......To confront a total stranger with your pregnant wife and child in the car is just stupid. How did you know he would back down ? How did you know he wasnt carrying? How did you know he couldnt have taken you out with 1 punch? You put yourself and your familyin a very vulnerable position. There is always someone bigger, faster, smarter. Always. You got lucky this time.

I disagree.  His posting said he was starting to walk toward his car and I think the best thing is for him to do what he did and get out of his car and meet him 1/2 way closer to his car.  If you waited until he came right up to your car,  he could've kicked in your car door, smashed the windshield or worse, he could've pulled a knife or gun right in front of you and your family.

I would do the same thing getting out of my car but with at least a weapon even if no gun or knife at least my 3' long windshield scraper which would certainly hurt if he threw the first punch.   If not getting out of my car,  depending on if he had a gun known ASAP, I would've told the family to duck down low and gun the engine and run him over with my truck.    Jail time is better than being dead.

Yah, someone might be tougher and stronger than me, but I'll take that chance.  Glad though the encounter came out well with him backing off like most of the time the punks do.  All talk, no action.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 06:12:50 PM by cookiedough » Logged
Gavin_Sons
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VRCC# 32796

columbus indiana


« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2013, 06:16:48 PM »

With all due respect.......To confront a total stranger with your pregnant wife and child in the car is just stupid. How did you know he would back down ? How did you know he wasnt carrying? How did you know he couldnt have taken you out with 1 punch? You put yourself and your familyin a very vulnerable position. There is always someone bigger, faster, smarter. Always. You got lucky this time.

I disagree.  His posting said he was starting to walk toward his car and I think the best thing is for him to do what he did and get out of his car and meet him 1/2 way closer to his car.  If you waited until he came right up to your car,  he could've kicked in your car door, smashed the windshield or worse, he could've pulled a knife or gun right in front of you and your family.

I would do the same thing getting out of my car but with at least a weapon even if no gun or knife at least my 3' long windshield scraper which would certainly hurt if he threw the first punch.   If not getting out of my car,  depending on if he had a gun known ASAP, I would've told the family to duck down low and gun the engine and run him over with my truck.    Jail time is better than being dead.

Yah, someone might be tougher and stronger than me, but I'll take that chance.  Glad though the encounter came out well with him backing off like most of the time the punks do.  All talk, no action.

Exactly my thinking, I did know one fact, I was packing and did not see anything on him. I first just sat there laughing but when he walked toward my car it wasnt funny any more.
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Varmintmist
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Western Pa


« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2013, 06:24:53 PM »

And if you would have drawn your firearm you would have gone to jail. You started the encounter and escalated it. You had no right of self defense.
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MarkT
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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2013, 06:37:50 PM »

Interesting.  I've found my hidden "heater" makes me more polite in encounters.  I prefer to swallow the pride, much as that hurts, and defuse the encounter if I can (within reason), as long as I don't see any weapon.  Now if he pulls one - it's Katy bar the door pal, I am now justified in defending myself with whatever I deem necessary.  Had to use that plan on the road, at a gas pump in Iowa, when some neanderthal tried to pick a fight when I told him he'd do better to wait for another open pump, I'm not leaving yet.  So he pulled his car up to the pump on the other side of my island then came around to my side to attempt to bait me into a fight, apparently.  I wasn't going to have it.  And I didn't see any weapon, so I'm not getting in a fist fight while I'm armed, and I'm not going to jail for brandishing or shooting him unless he produces a real threat - that I can point to in court.  I told him, looks like he's having a bad day - he yelled yeah, and I'm making it worse.  He had no idea how lucky he is I'm not a hot head.  He cooled down - and went inside, after suitably impressing his girlfriend, apparently.  She could have been sobbing over his bloody corpse full of .40 holes.
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Gavin_Sons
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VRCC# 32796

columbus indiana


« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2013, 06:40:02 PM »

If I would have drawn my weapon it would be more than jail. I did have the right to self defense. As soon as he got out and walked toward my car it was a direct threat to me. But I didnt and he didnt even know I had a weapon considering I carry it in the back of my pants on my lower back. Maybe I was in the wrong, but it is what happened. Cant change it now. Now if he came out with guns blazing I would have ran him down with my car. But that didnt happen. I use to do ride alongs with our local police, thats what I wanted to do for a living, be a cop. And they told me in road rage cases like this one if one gets out of their car and comes at you, you do not know their intentions so treat it as a direct threat, and prepare to defend yourself. Normally they just flip you off and scream and drive off, but in rare cases some nut jobs will get out and threaten you. It's either you or them and jail is better than death. I knew there would be some mixed reactions on this topic, this was just what happened to me and how I handled it. Right or wrong? Who is to say? Everyone would have handled it differently.
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tank_post142
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south florida


« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2013, 06:40:17 PM »

"  You started the encounter and escalated it. You had no right of self defense." your kidding right?

If I were to meet you in person and called you ignorant then spit on the floor in front of you as a sign of contempt for your foolishness then you attacked me ,I could not defend myself by beating you senseless?
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VRCCDS0246 
BF
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Fort Walton Beach, Florida I'm a simple man, I like pretty, dark haired woman and breakfast food.


« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2013, 06:42:56 PM »

A wise man knows when to pick his fights.  

I'm glad it turned out for the better for you, however, knowing that your wife and kid(s) are in the car with you, it probably would have been just as well to have let the jackass proceed without blowing your horn and aggravating the jackass in the first place.

The safety of your wife and kid(s) should be and are your first and highest priority.  

Now, however, if said jackass had cut you off and then had gotten out of his car without any provocation by you, then have at said jackass with all your means.   cooldude
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Gavin_Sons
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Posts: 7109


VRCC# 32796

columbus indiana


« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2013, 06:47:32 PM »

So why put horns on cars? They are thete to use for that very reason. If a horn blowing at you pisses you off that much then stay home. Maybe obama will outlaw horns while he is at it so the mentally insane people can't be annoyed by them.
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Clark
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2013, 06:54:28 PM »

 cooldude
So why put horns on cars? They are thete to use for that very reason. If a horn blowing at you pisses you off that much then stay home. Maybe obama will outlaw horns while he is at it so the mentally insane people can't be annoyed by them.
cooldude cooldude Grin Grin
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BF
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Fort Walton Beach, Florida I'm a simple man, I like pretty, dark haired woman and breakfast food.


« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2013, 07:11:18 PM »

So why put horns on cars? They are thete to use for that very reason. If a horn blowing at you pisses you off that much then stay home. Maybe obama will outlaw horns while he is at it so the mentally insane people can't be annoyed by them.

I'm not the one getting pissed off......you and that jackass are....at each other.  You have every right to blow your horn at said jackass if you want, but just be aware of the possible outcome of pissing off the wrong lunitic jackass that just might be a bigger badass than your are or have a bigger gun than you do the next time around.  

How do you know that this guy wasn't high on something stupid making him totally wacked out?  

You had your wife and kid(s) with you is all I'm saying.  They're your priority.....not getting even with some total stranger in the parking lot

Sometimes it's better to just let things go instead of proving your manhood.  


« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 07:12:50 PM by BF » Logged

I can't help about the shape I'm in
I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to
 

Gavin_Sons
Member
*****
Posts: 7109


VRCC# 32796

columbus indiana


« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2013, 07:20:56 PM »

Wasnt proving anything to anyone. guess you would have handled it alot better than me huh? Guess these old indiana hillbillies have a different outlook on life and what is and isnt a threat. And by the way, it is not how big your gun is. Bigger guns are not always better. Or are they? By the way this is going you apparently have to have a bigger something or another.
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f6john
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Christ first and always

Richmond, Kentucky


« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2013, 07:24:31 PM »

 A lot of interesting thoughts here, and they reminded me of a situation I was in this past fall. I was coming onto a main thoroughfare from an exit ramp. The ramp provided it's own lane in addition to the other 3 existing lanes. I am already up on the main road, but sill in the new lane and I see a one ton van out of the corner of my eye crossing lanes in my direction at rapid rate. I'm not sure if he see's me or if he intends to enter the lane I'm occupying but I blow my horn when he nearly clips my left front fender. I suppose that the horn irritated him since he immediately slammed on his brakes once his bumper cleared mine. I didn't hit him, but with no time to react I was inches from him when I came to a stop. I had the curb on my right and given traffic I certainly wasn't going to swerve to the left.

Now comes the rub, He just sat there. Not long, but long enough to get my blood pressure elevated. At that point I come out of my car on a mission. The guy in the van is watching in his rear view mirror and we make eye contact. As soon as I am even with his rear axle, he floors it and speeds off. I had no idea what was going to happen, but I had every intention of dragging his ass out of that van and having an eye to eye conversation. Probably best that didn't happen. I did have other people with me and I was a little embarrassed that I had lost it for a few moments. The van turned right at the next street and wouldn't you know that it was my next turn also. The van driver had pulled into the middle of a large retail shopping center parking lot and was sitting in the van as I drove by. I decided it was time to let it go.

Right or wrong I hope I am able to control my emotions better if a similar situation arises again.
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Oss
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The lower Hudson Valley

Ossining NY Chapter Rep VRCCDS0141


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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2013, 07:38:53 PM »

So the other driver braked hard in front of you after cutting you off, exited his car and started walking toward your vehicle with your pregnant wife and kids with you?

none of us were there

None of us really knows what you were thinking at all times

So none of us can really be in your shoes

Glad none of your family was hurt and the situation resolved itself


Interesting post   Road rage can be a killer

I cant find fault with you getting out of the car, you need to take what advantage you can while you have the opportunity.  Did your wife get the plate while you got out and is she also armed?

Dont answer that on the board but you can pm me

I am told that professional bodyguards ALWAYS leave room between their vehicle and the vehicle in front so they can escape.  Just food for thought.  Just like on a bike you should look for an escape path, its maybe a good idea when visiting Walmart to extend the logic to your car

There is no Walmart close to my house
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 07:52:54 PM by Oss » Logged

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HayHauler
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Posts: 7207


Pearland, TX


« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2013, 07:40:50 PM »

Why go to Walmart anyway?  Most of their junk is from China anyway, except for most of the food products.  
A couple of years ago, I was looking for a frying pan for my mother for Christmas.  I went to Walmart and only found one heavy professional type pan that was made in the US.  She was wanting a lighter pan than her current cast iron.
Guess I should have known.

Hay  Cool
Jimmyt
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VRCC# 28963
BF
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Posts: 9932


Fort Walton Beach, Florida I'm a simple man, I like pretty, dark haired woman and breakfast food.


« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2013, 07:42:13 PM »

Wasnt proving anything to anyone. guess you would have handled it alot better than me huh? Guess these old indiana hillbillies have a different outlook on life and what is and isnt a threat. And by the way, it is not how big your gun is. Bigger guns are not always better. Or are they? By the way this is going you apparently have to have a bigger something or another.

Now it sounds like your getting pissed off at me.  

It also sounds like yes, getting even with a total stranger is more important to you.  

I'm not saying I'm better than you are, or that I would have handled it any better, or different, however, this old Florida redneck has lived long enough to hopefully know when to let things go......and some random jackass in a Walmart parking lot isn't worth raising my blood pressure over.....much less possibly jeopardising my family and risk going to jail over.  

Some random jackass cutting me off in a Walmart parking lot isn't a threat to me.  But obviously, one is to you.  
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I can't help about the shape I'm in
I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to
 

Gavin_Sons
Member
*****
Posts: 7109


VRCC# 32796

columbus indiana


« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2013, 07:59:54 PM »

Im not mad at you at all. It turned into a friendly one finger wave to him getting out and walking toward my car screaming. The way he stopped I couldnt make it around him since there was a curb on the left and one of those islands with trees in it on the right. Maybe I could have backed up but then I would have put my wife and son between me and the guy, considering I would have had to turn into parking spaces with the passenger side of the car facing him. So it was either sit there and wait for him to assult my car or confront him.
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2KVALKRIDER
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Posts: 67


AURORA, COLORADO


« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2013, 08:43:46 PM »

Wow!!!! I have one those valkyries also.  My valkyrie is blue and gray. It was built in the year of 2000. I have rode it many miles.  I wash it all the time. I love to take pics of it all the time.  I buy lots of goodies for it.  Today I started it up. I had to put a battery charger on it today. It was fun. Im am sad because I cant ride right now it is cold here and lots of snow.  But soon I will get to ride it and have lots of fun on it. Last year I bought tires for it so it would go fast. Did I mention it is blue and gray??? I bought it in June 2008 and have put many a mile on it. I have been to n.m, az, nv, ut, co and alot of other states. Is this fun or what!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Varmintmist
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Posts: 1228


Western Pa


« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2013, 09:55:21 PM »

"  You started the encounter and escalated it. You had no right of self defense." your kidding right?

If I were to meet you in person and called you ignorant then spit on the floor in front of you as a sign of contempt for your foolishness then you attacked me ,I could not defend myself by beating you senseless?
If I attacked you, yep. However if you read the OP, the OG(other guy) was acting stupid, THEN the horn was blown and a threat was made,
Quote
As soon as he pulled out I honked at him, he slammed on his brakes got out and flipped me off. I rolled down the window and said old man if you are in such a hurry you should have skipped the walmart visit. He screamed something back at me, then I said its been a long time since I have beat the living hell out of someone.
That was it, the OP is now the aggressor. The OG could LEGALLY have shot him in PA as there was a clear threat to him. The escalation didnt stop there so it got further muddled, but there was no one in the right here.

There was just about the same case just south of here. One guy dead and the other guy is up for murder, 2 tough guys lives screwed up over a parking lot bitch.

FYI I have had a carry permit for longer than most states have had permits. I also did the instructor thing for a while. I would have giggled at you spitting and yelling. Carrying is a responsibility.
I have been is customer service for 25 years, if you could shoot people for being jagoffs (pickburgese) then there would be a lot less people in the world today.
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However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
Churchill
Stude
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Posts: 533


« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2013, 12:11:03 AM »

 You might want to read this before your next trip to Walmart  cooldude

Self Defense Law and the Martial Artist
by Peter Hobart, Esq.

Introduction

Anthony Ervin was a career criminal. He was arrested eight times on assorted robbery, weapons, and assault charges between 1987 and 1996. On October 8, 1996, he acosted Courtney Beswick, a blind man who must have seemed like an easy target. After Ervin’s demands for money were repeatedly refused, he attacked Beswick. Beswick, a long time practitioner of martial arts, threw his assailant over his shoulder, onto the pavement. The fall broke Ervin’s neck, and he subsequently died.

Having survived this terrifying ordeal, Beswick still faced the possibility of criminal and civil charges. In this case, however, the police and estate of the deceased decided not to file charges against Beswick, since he clearly acted in self-defense.

But this outcome is hardly the rule in the United States. In fact, a recent law review article indicates that a disturbing trend toward targeting martial arts practitioners is emerging in the field of tort law.

With this in mind, it seems that the modern martial artist must have at least a rudimentary understanding of the applicable law if he ever hopes, or fears, that his training may be called upon outside the dôjô.

In an effort to provide some practical answers, this article will address the national majority position, and any substantial minority positions regarding criminal and civil liability with respect to the use of force in defense of self, defense of others, and defense of property. Pennsylvania law, where relevant, will also be examined. The majority position reflects the practice of most states, and is increasingly consistent with the Model Penal Code (MPC). Pennsylvania law regarding these issues is largely based on the MPC.

The author regrets the ubiquity of the terms "reasonable" and "generally" in this article — that these terms are essential merely reflects the complexity, and often the vagueness, of the law.

Case law varies widely among jurisdictions, and is constantly modifying and reinterpreting the rules of law. In an effort to provide some concrete conclusions, a lsit of relatively unqualified guidelines is provided at the end.

CRIMINAL LIABILITY

Self-defense, non-lethal force:

Criminal liability is distinguished from civil liability in that it is the state which brings charges against the defendant, as opposed to the victim or his estate. The general criminal law allows for the use of necessary and proportionate, non-deadly force in self-defense anytime the victim reasonably believes that unlawful force is about to be used on him. Pennsylvania law is generally consistent with this position. The critical language under this standard is ‘reasonable belief’, ‘unlawful’, ‘about to’ and ‘necessary and proportionate’.

In order to establish a reasonable belief, the court will use both a subjective and an objective standard. The subjective standard determines whether this defendant did in fact believe that an attack was imminent (whether reasonably or unreasonably). In arriving at this conclusion, the defendant’s state of mind is relevant. Thus, a paranoid defendant might introduce evidence of his condition to show that his belief, however unreasonable, was at least genuine.

The reasonableness of the defendant’s actions is judged by an objective rather than a subjective standard. The reasonable person standard is one of the most difficult aspects of the law to understand. In an effort to do justice to both sides, the law requires the trier-of-fact (usually the jury) to consider whether an ordinary person in the defendant’s position would believe that force was about to be used against him. The defendant’s (and the assailant’s) physical characteristics and past history will be taken into account, but mental condition is of no concern. Thus, comparative size, weight, strength, handicap or pre-existing injury may support a reasonableness finding, but unusual sensitivity or fear will not.

There is no simple formula for the legal application of force in self-defense under American law. The confusion is due, in part, to the complexity of the issue itself, and in part to the variety of state laws within the American legal system. The requirement that the force defended against be unlawful simply excludes the right of self defense when an ‘assailant’, such as a police officer, is legally authorized to use force. It must be noted however, that a majority of jurisdictions allow the use of force, including deadly force, in resisting an attack by a person not known to be a police officer, and the use of non-deadly force against a known police-officer attempting to make a wrongful arrest. Pennsylvania does not allow the use of force in resisting wrongful arrest, but it does allow the use of force if an arresting officer unlawfully threatens to use deadly force, or does not identify himself.

‘About to’ refers to the imminence requirement for the right to self-defense. It is not enough that the assailant threatens to use force in the future, or upon the happening of a certain event. Thus the statement "If you do that one more time, I’ll punch you" is insufficient to trigger the right to self-defense. The threatened use of force must be immediate.

The force used in self defense must reasonably appear to be necessary to prevent the attack, and must be proportionate to the gravity of the attack. Thus, for example, if an assailant is about to slap the victim, responding with the use of a fire-arm would be excessive and therefore beyond the scope of the right to self-defense. The proportionality standard under Pennsylvania law is articulated as a prohibition on the use of excessive force, but the fact that death results does not automatically produce a finding of excessive force.

Self-defense, lethal force:

The standard for use of deadly force is, predictably, higher. The general criminal law allows for the use of deadly force anytime a faultless victim reasonably believes that unlawful force which will cause death or grievous bodily harm is about to be used on him. Again, Pennsylvania law is generally consistent with this standard.

The faultlessness requirement does not mean that the victim must be pure of heart and without sin. It does mean that the right of self-defense will not be available to one who has substantially encouraged or provoked an attack. The general rule is that words alone are not enough to be considered a provocation under this standard, but there are exceptions. For example, saying ‘I am about to shoot you’ might well constitute sufficient provocation.

One of the circumstances which helps to determine the level of threat encountered by the victim is the nature of the assailant’s weapon (if any). As a general rule, anything which might be used to kill a person, no matter how odd, is considered a deadly weapon. Thus, a chair, a lamp or a screwdriver may all be considered deadly weapons. In some instances, the law will treat a trained fighters hands as a deadly weapon, but in order to trigger the right to self-defense using lethal force against such a person, the victim must, of course, know of the attacker’s special training.

U.S. courts are split with respect to an additional factor in the lawfulness of the use of deadly force in self-defense. A minority of jurisdictions require a victim to retreat to the wall if it is safe to do so, before using deadly force. ‘Retreat to the wall’ is generally construed to mean taking any reasonable and apparent avenue of exit. However, even minority jurisdictions do not require retreat under three circumstances. There is no duty to retreat from one’s own home, if one is being or has been robbed or raped, or if the victim is a police-officer making a lawful arrest. In 1996 the Pennsylvania Superior Court held that "although a person is afforded discretion in determining necessity, level and manner of force to defend one’s self, the right to use force in self defense is a qualified, not an absolute right." Pennsylvania is a retreat jurisdiction.

Even an initial aggressor may be given the right to self-defense under certain circumstances. If the initial aggressor withdraws from the confrontation, and communicates this withdrawal to the other party, he regains the right to self-defense. Also, if the victim of relatively minor aggression ‘suddenly escalates’ the confrontation to one involving deadly force, without providing adequate space for withdrawal, the initial aggressor may still invoke the right to self-defense.

Third parties:

The right to defense of others turns largely on the reasonableness of the belief that the victim deserved assistance. A minority of jurisdictions require that the rescuer be a member of the victim’s family, or the victim’s superior or employee. Similarly, a minority of jurisdictions require that the rescuer’s belief be correct, reasoning that the rescuer ‘merely steps into the victim’s shoes’, while the majority requires only that it be reasonable. Pennsylvania law imposes no such restrictions. It does, however, require the additional showing that the rescuer believed that his intervention was necessary, and that the rescuer retreats if the victim would be required to do so.

If in the course of intentionally defending himself or another, a defendant recklessly or negligently injures or kills a third person, self-defense will not bar liability, but it will reduce the gravity of the charge from an intentional crime to a reckless or negligent crime.

Defense of Property:

In Pennsylvania, and a majority of jurisdictions, a victim has the right to use non-deadly force in defense of his dwelling when, and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate another’s unlawful entry or attack upon his dwelling. Deadly force is authorized when violent entry is made or attempted and the victim reasonably believes that it is necessary to prevent an attack on his person. It is also authorized when the victim reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent entry into the dwelling by one who intends to commit a felony therein. The rationale for allowing self-defense in these scenarios is based upon the right of inhabitants to be secure in their homes, rather than the right to defend property, as can be demonstrated by the law regarding defense of uninhabited property.

Non-deadly force may be used merely to defend one’s property from imminent, unlawful interference. Force may not be used if some other, reasonable means would have the same effect.. The only exception to the immediacy requirement is that force may be used to regain wrongfully taken property after the taking (i.e. no longer a prevention of immediate interference) if the victim uses such force in ‘immediate pursuit’. The legal rationale for this exception is, of course, that the interference continues as long as the aggressor retains control of the property.

Deadly force may never be used in defense of uninhabited property. The popular misconception with respect to this law emanates from confusion over situations where the right to defend property and the right to defend persons therein overlap. Pennsylvania allows the use of reasonable, non-lethal force in the protection of property and notes that such a defense of property will not be regarded as ‘provoking’ an attack on the defender’s person. Pennsylvania allows the use of force necessary to eject a trespasser, short of inflicting serious bodily injury. If the defendant reasonably believes that the trespasser intended to commit a felony, then serious bodily injury is justified. When two people claim ownership over a piece of personal property, Pennsylvania law provides that force may not be used to prevent one from taking it.

Use of force to prevent crime:

A citizen has a privilege to use non-deadly force which reasonably appears necessary to prevent a felony, riot or other serious breach of the peace, and some states (such as California) have extended this privilege to the prevention of any crime. Deadly force may be used only to prevent the commission of a dangerous felony, involving a risk of human life. A citizen has the same right as a police-officer to use non-deadly force to effectuate an arrest if he reasonably believes that the alleged criminal has in fact committed the crime. A private citizen may also use deadly force to effect an arrest, provided the alleged criminal is actually guilty. Here, a reasonable belief is not enough.

Pennsylvania phrases this provision differently. A private citizen is justified in using the same amount of force as if he were directed to prevent the crime by a peace officer, except that lethal force may not be used unless the defendant reasonably believes that it is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or another. At the direction of a peace officer, a private citizen need not retreat from making a lawful arrest, and may use any force he believes necessary to defend himself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest.

CIVIL LIABILITY

In a civil case, it is the victim (or his estate) bringing the action. While there are many similarities to a criminal charge, it is important to understand that the civil plaintiff must only prove his case ‘by a preponderance of the evidence’. This is a much lighter burden than the criminal standard of ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’. The principal tort actions which a victim who defends himself might face, include battery, assault and wrongful death.

Battery and assault:

In virtually every jurisdiction (including Pennsylvania), to make out a case for battery, the plaintiff must show that the aggressor made harmful or offensive contact with the plaintiff’s person, that the aggressor intended to bring about such contact, and that the aggressor’s actions in fact caused the contact. While harmful contact is easily determined from the specifics of the situation, offensive contact is judged by the objective, ‘reasonable person standard’. As a prominent Philadelphia law professor explains, "tapping a person on the shoulder is not reasonably ‘offensive’ whereas, tapping someone ‘considerably lower’ would be." ‘Plaintiff’s person’ means in general anything connected to the plaintiff’s body. This would include a hat, a cup in plaintiff’s hand, and on a recent bar exam, even the car in which the plaintiff was sitting! Thus, snatching a book from a person might well constitute a battery.

The causation requirement can also be deceptive. Not only would a thrown projectile which strikes the plaintiff constitute a battery, but ducking to avoid such a projectile, and hitting one’s head would also be actionable. Moreover, no actual damage need occur to bring an action for battery. The offensiveness of a non-harmful contact will support an award of nominal damages.

Assault, briefly, is the creation of a reasonable apprehension of an imminent battery, in the victim. Simple fear is not enough. The aggressor must have a present apparent ability to bring about such contact. In other words, the victim must actually expect to be struck or touched. Conversely, the fact that the victim was not in the least bit afraid does not bar recovery. Thus, a professional boxer may successfully sue a weakling for assault, even though there was no actual danger of being hurt.

Words are generally not enough to support an action for assault, but words coupled with some act may be. For example, shaking one’s fist and threatening with words might well constitute assault. Similarly, a conditional threat such as ‘your money or your life’ is also sufficient to support a charge of assault. Like battery, no actual damage need result.

Wrongful death and survivor acts:

Although traditionally any tort action abated at the death of the victim or the perpetrator, most states have now enacted ‘survival acts’ for wrongful death (it is from this old common law rule that the concept of escaping liability by killing, rather than injuring a victim, derived). Now the estate of the deceased may bring an action against the killer for all damages which occurred between the commission of the tort, and death (e.g. pain and suffering).

Further, every state has now enacted a statute providing for a civil remedy for wrongful death. Here, the a designated representative sues for the pecuniary injury to the next of kin (lost wages, lost companionship). While the wrongful death action is quite complicated, the critical aspect for present purposes is that the same defenses against the plaintiff apply as if the victim himself were suing.

Self-defense in tort law:

While the principles of self-defense at tort law are similar to those at criminal law, the mode of analysis, and areas of emphasis differ. In general, self-defense is valid when a person has reasonable grounds to believe that he is about to be attacked. Under these circumstances, he may only use such force as is reasonably necessary to protect against the potential injury. Since only reasonable ground are required, a genuine mistake with respect to the attack will still support the right to self-defense. Once the attack or tort has ended, so does the right to self-defense. Retaliation is never permitted.

As at criminal law, there is generally no duty to retreat, and deadly force may be used to prevent death or serious bodily harm. Even in the minority jurisdictions which require retreat (like Pennsylvania), there is an exception to the requirement if the victim is in his home. Although the attacker has no right to self defense, if the attack is non-deadly, and the victim responds with deadly force, the aggressor may defend himself with deadly force.

Third parties:

Under tort principles, a victim who accidentally injures a third-party in the course of defending himself is also protected from suit by that third party. A majority of jurisdictions also allow the defense of victims only if the victims themselves have a right to self-defense. Thus, if the rescuer makes a mistake regarding the victim’s right to self-defense, he too will be liable. However, there is a strong modern trend toward protecting rescuers from suit if their wrongful assistance of a victim is based on a reasonable mistake (Pennsylvania tort law allows for a reasonable mistake). The rescuer may use as much force as the victim could have used in self-defense.

Defense of property:

In the defense of property, a request to desist prior to the use of force is required, unless it would be futile or dangerous. There is almost never a right to self defense when the ‘intruder’ in fact has a right to be on the property. Thus, it is unwise to attack a supposed intruder without ascertaining his identity first! A significant exception occurs when the ‘intruder’ contributes to the ambiguity regarding his identity or purpose.

As at criminal law, there is a right to use force in the recovery of stolen property, as long as the victim is in ‘hot pursuit’ of the taker. Also as under the criminal standard, deadly force may never be used simply to defend property. Finally, the right to trespass for necessity supersedes the right to self-defense. Thus, a home-owner is not privileged to use force to turn away those who need refuge from an emergency.

Prevention of crime:

Since the right to use force is limited to the prevention of the commission of a tort in civil actions, one who subdues an attacker and then continues to use force to hold him until the police arrive, must be aware that he has moved over from a tort privilege, to the privilege of arrest under criminal law.

Martial arts teachers’ liability:

Under the Theory of Agency, the principal is liable for unlawful acts which he causes to be done through an agent. There are three possible ways in which a martial arts instructor might be held liable as the principal for the unlawful acts of his students, as agents. First, if the instructor appears to ratify or approve of unlawful conduct, he may be held liable for the commission of such acts. Thus, a dojo which encourages the use of excessive force, or lethal force in inappropriate situations may be seen to ratify and approve of unlawful conduct. Similarly, an instructor who continues to teach a student who has abused his knowledge may be held responsible, if not liable, for subsequent torts.

Second, an instructor may be held liable for having entrusted a student with ‘an extremely dangerous instrumentality’. "[W]hen an instrumentality passes from the control of a person, his responsibility for injuries inflicted by it ceases. However, when an injury is caused by an exceptionally dangerous instrumentality, or one which may be dangerous if improperly used, a former owner or possessor may ... be charged with responsibility for [its] use...." The implications for instructors who teach potentially lethal techniques is clear.

Finally, an instructor may be liable for harm to the student or other parties as a result of negligent instruction. Anyone who holds himself out as an expert capable of giving instruction is expected to conform to the standards of his professional community. Thus, any instructor who, by his own negligence, fails to provide, teach and require adequate safe-guards and supervision, may be liable for any resulting injury.

CONCLUSION

The law, and the facts underlying a cause of action are rarely clear-cut. Statutes and case law vary widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Lawyers are skilled at recasting the facts in their client’s best interest. Juries are given broad discretion with respect to determining guilt or innocence, and may feel the need to compensate an injured party regardless of fault. And even if a defendant successfully raises one of the defenses discussed above, litigation is costly both in terms of time and money.

It would be foolish to try to rely on a general understanding of the legal principles at work in these situations, in order to engage in behavior which falls just within the realm of legality. Rather, the wise martial artist will attempt to avoid any hint of liability or criminal conduct. The following general principles may be of value in this endeavor.

• Avoid physical confrontation. If there is a safe avenue of retreat, use it (regardless of jurisdiction). At a minimum, retreat to the wall.

• If confrontation is inevitable, give a warning when defending property, unless doing so would be dangerous or futile (which is often the case). This does not mean that you should list your qualifications, as the samurai of old were wont to do. Rather, you should simply give the aggressor notice that you intend to use force against him, in order to allow him to reconsider his position.

• Ensure that you are not seen as the aggressor. This does not require ‘taking the first hit’, but it does require being certain that physical contact is imminent prior to reacting (for an in-depth examination of the danger here, see the Goetz case).

• Be aware of the aggravating and mitigating factors. Is there a size, age, or ability differential? Are you or the attacker armed or trained? All of these factors will help you determine the appropriate level of force.

• Use only the amount of force necessary to deter the attack. This does not require the use of ineffective technique, but rather mature reflection prior to a confrontation about what technique (including flight) is appropriate in which situation. It would be wise to introduce this as part of training.

• Once the initial threat is neutralized, stop. This does not mean that you must give your opponent a fighting chance. Rather, you may immobilize the attacker while awaiting the police, but do no further damage.

• When intervening on behalf of a third party, ensure (as much as possible) that the intervention is justified and necessary. As a rule, interference in domestic disputes is unwise. Reconciliations can mean trouble for the would-be rescuer.

• Remember that, in this country, human rights are superior to property rights. The use of force in the protection of property is very risky.

• As an instructor, you are both morally and legally responsible for the actions of your students, both inside and out of the dojo.

As an instructor, you should know the law at least to the extent of whether your state is in the majority or the minority with respect to the issues raised above. If you do not have a lawyer or law student in your dojo, any law school library will have a copy of: Your State Statutes Annotated (i.e., Texas Statutes Annotated). Simply look in the index under the headings listed in this paper for the applicable law.

 

DISCLAIMER: This analysis is not intended as a comprehensive statement of the law, or a legal opinion. It represents a general overview of the law, accurate to the best of my knowledge, at the time of publication. It is not intended for public consumption, and should not be relied upon as a defense to any criminal or civil charges or complaints.

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Gavin_Sons
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VRCC# 32796

columbus indiana


« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2013, 03:20:33 AM »

Really? I was the threat? Some of you have a whole different idea of what a threat is. Can no one speak their mind these days without legally getting shot in pa? Wow
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ValkFlyer
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Antioch, CA


« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2013, 03:55:02 AM »

Really? I was the threat? Some of you have a whole different idea of what a threat is. Can no one speak their mind these days without legally getting shot in pa? Wow


What did you expect....you're commenting on a public board.
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Jabba
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VRCCDS0197

Greenwood Indiana


« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2013, 04:41:09 AM »

Gavin, I can't condone your actions... but I understand.  I get it. The world is FULL of people that go thru life spouting off and never get shut up.  It is the way we're raising our kids... take it.  Ignore them.  They'll stop.  Don't respond.  go tell the teacher.  It's all liberal, pansy, bullshit.  If you let kids fight occasionally, they'll learn that they can't just spout whatever they want to whomever they want. Typically in your situation, I would have gotten my gun out, and kept it hidden in my lap.  Then... if things escalated... you let him "see" it.  At that point, it's usually over.  A firearm makes people A LOT more polite.  If not... then if he approaches your window, you were in fear for your life right?  ??

I had a guy jump out of his car one morning at a stop light.  We were in the rush hour commute time, and traffic was bumper to bumper.  I was on SR-135 just south of Indy headed north.  This guy jumps out of his car slams the door screaming at me to "get off his ass!!!" we were going like 2 mph.  How was I supposed to do that?  I was on the Valk by the way.  Well the guy jumps out all puffed up like a  loud mouth pup that ain't never been in a junk yard fight.  He takes one step towards me, and realizes that I am 6'2" and well over 300 lbs, dressed in armored gear and a full face helmet.  And immediately starts backing up, still yipping like a chihuahua.  I just sat the bike on the side stand and braced up a little.  Never said a word.  The dork got back in his car, and we went on our way.  Soon the road split into two lanes headed north, and a guy in a Ford PU truck pulls up next to me at the light.  Rolls his window down and says... "I guess the objects in that guys mirror were larger than they appeared huh?"  I laughed for hours over that line.   
 
Everyone should get their ass whipped at least once in their life for running their mouth to the wrong person.  It's an invaluable lesson IMO.

Jabba
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Squealy
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Posts: 194


Trafalgar, IN


« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2013, 05:51:48 AM »

The world is FULL of people that go thru life spouting off and never get shut up.  It is the way we're raising our kids... take it.  Ignore them.  They'll stop.  Don't respond.  go tell the teacher.  It's all liberal, pansy, bullshit.  If you let kids fight occasionally, they'll learn that they can't just spout whatever they want to whomever they want.

My oldest (6th grader) got in fight earlier this school year.  The VP called and was telling me what happened and I asked if my son threw the first punch?  The Vice Principal said "no he didn't". I told the VP that if my son that will fight back, he will not run and tell a teacher.  the VP was in "shock" over me saying that.  It is BS that they tell the kids to run and tell the teachers..... 
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Squealy

old2soon
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Posts: 23402

Willow Springs mo


« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2013, 06:18:10 AM »

I wasn't there with you. I DO NOT know how i would of reacted. If yer cool with the way it went down-our suggestions and opions don't matter in the least. And trust me when i tell you-ALL the idiots AINT at wally world. They be everywhere. If i'm by myself we will talk maybe. If my daughter is with me her safety and well being is ALL that matters. Depends upon what the situation is at the moment. And like i said-i WAS NOT there with you. Take care of your self and your family. RIDE SAFE.
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check.  1964  1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
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cookiedough
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southern WI


« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2013, 07:19:53 AM »

 Honking your horn at someone is not an immediate threat.  I do it all the time at idiots on their cell phones not paying attention in front of me at a green light still sitting there 10 seconds later.  I normally give a slight beep, beep to wake them up is all and get going.  More and more I get a nice middle finger flip off my way and I just laugh it off.  However,  2 high school girls were texting at a stop and when it turned green in front of me,  I blared the horn.  Both of them kept right on texting while driving so I pulled up around them and beeped the horn again to knock that crap off.  That is when they both flipped me off.  Pretty ballsy of them to have 2 high school teenie boppers flip off a guy in a full sized truck weighing more than both of them put together.  I kept blaring my horn at them and flipped them off alongside them until I decided to let it go and blew by them with my truck. 

I did have one serious or could've been serious encounter with a psycho on the interstate bumper to bumper traffic, well almost, very hard to get over in the right slower lane when I am already going 80 mph in the left lane traffic going 70 mph or so in right/slower lane.   He was coming up behind me blaring his horn in a piece of crap older smaller car flipping me off and going psycho in his car waving at me to get over and continually beeping his horn.  I just put up both arms like whatever dude since I couldn't get over anytime soon to let him go by.  He flipped me off and acted irradickly swerving back and forth in the fast lane right on my ass/bumper mere feet behind me.  What am I suppose to do??? speed up over 80 mph or slow down and piss him off more, I could not get over?  I finally got over 5-6 miles down the road but idiots like that ought to be shot on site, probably on drugs?  Could've been an emergency but I'm not driving 90 mph in a 70 mph zone just so the idiot behind me can get to where he is going faster.    I was about ready to call 911 and get his license plates and turn his butt in and I should have.  He probably never had a drivers license or for sure by the looks of his beater car never had car insurance so definitely did not want to get rear ended from the idiot even though it would've been his fault.  I got rear ended by a guy in town once with no insurance and no money and it took 10 months to get my grand out of him thru legal court action so my rear bumper could get fixed - don't want to go thru that again anytime soon.
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RTaz
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Michigan...Home of InZane X -XI

Oscoda, Michigan


« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2013, 07:46:24 AM »

 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes well I guess it really don't matter what anyone thinks of the encounter whether right or wrong since other than pride no one was harmed. Just would like to point out one thing that a  prosecuting attorney once said in a CPL class I took " remember you will be judged by a jury of your peers" you just have to hope they think the way you do and have a good lawyer! cooldude   
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 RTaz
Jabba
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VRCCDS0197

Greenwood Indiana


« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2013, 10:41:21 AM »

I am already going 80 mph in the left lane traffic going 70 mph or so in right/slower lane.   He was coming up behind me blaring his horn in a piece of crap older smaller car flipping me off and going psycho in his car waving at me to get over and continually beeping his horn.  I just put up both arms like whatever dude since I couldn't get over anytime soon to let him go by.  He flipped me off and acted irradickly swerving back and forth in the fast lane right on my ass/bumper mere feet behind me.  What am I suppose to do??? speed up over 80 mph or slow down and piss him off more, I could not get over?  I finally got over 5-6 miles down the road but idiots like that ought to be shot on site, probably on drugs?  Could've been an emergency but I'm not driving 90 mph in a 70 mph zone just so the idiot behind me can get to where he is going faster.    

I say... if someone wants to go faster than you, and there is no one in FRONT of you... get out of the way.  Even if you have to slow down briefly to merge with slower traffic to the right and allow him past.  This is JUST MY OPINION.  If the speed limit was 70, and someone was doing 71 in the fastest lane, and would NOT get out of your way... would that irritate you?  If yes... then what's the difference?  9 MPH?  If not... then you are a better man than I am.  If I am running 90 and someone wants to go faster... I'll get out of their way.  Because it irritates ME a lot when someone runs 5 MPH over the speed limit and won't get out of mine. 

Jabba
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BF
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Posts: 9932


Fort Walton Beach, Florida I'm a simple man, I like pretty, dark haired woman and breakfast food.


« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2013, 10:50:33 AM »

I am already going 80 mph in the left lane traffic going 70 mph or so in right/slower lane.   He was coming up behind me blaring his horn in a piece of crap older smaller car flipping me off and going psycho in his car waving at me to get over and continually beeping his horn.  I just put up both arms like whatever dude since I couldn't get over anytime soon to let him go by.  He flipped me off and acted irradickly swerving back and forth in the fast lane right on my ass/bumper mere feet behind me.  What am I suppose to do??? speed up over 80 mph or slow down and piss him off more, I could not get over?  I finally got over 5-6 miles down the road but idiots like that ought to be shot on site, probably on drugs?  Could've been an emergency but I'm not driving 90 mph in a 70 mph zone just so the idiot behind me can get to where he is going faster.    

I say... if someone wants to go faster than you, and there is no one in FRONT of you... get out of the way.  Even if you have to slow down briefly to merge with slower traffic to the right and allow him past.  This is JUST MY OPINION.  If the speed limit was 70, and someone was doing 71 in the fastest lane, and would NOT get out of your way... would that irritate you?  If yes... then what's the difference?  9 MPH?  If not... then you are a better man than I am.  If I am running 90 and someone wants to go faster... I'll get out of their way.  Because it irritates ME a lot when someone runs 5 MPH over the speed limit and won't get out of mine. 

Jabba

Actually, the left lane is for passing slower traffic and for turning left....ONLY.  The right lane is for driving.  The left lane IS NOT for driving, cruising, enjoying the scenery or for any other purpose other than passing slower traffic or making left hand turns. 

Don't know about all states, but it states that in the Florida Driver's handbook.  Regardless of how one feels about it, or their interpretation, or their enjoyment from driving in the left lane, it's the law, move the heck over.  Unless your passing someone or making a left hand turn, you're not supposed to be there. 
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MarkT
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VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"

Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km


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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2013, 11:28:55 AM »

I am already going 80 mph in the left lane traffic going 70 mph or so in right/slower lane.   He was coming up behind me blaring his horn in a piece of crap older smaller car flipping me off and going psycho in his car waving at me to get over and continually beeping his horn.  I just put up both arms like whatever dude since I couldn't get over anytime soon to let him go by.  He flipped me off and acted irradickly swerving back and forth in the fast lane right on my ass/bumper mere feet behind me.  What am I suppose to do??? speed up over 80 mph or slow down and piss him off more, I could not get over?  I finally got over 5-6 miles down the road but idiots like that ought to be shot on site, probably on drugs?  Could've been an emergency but I'm not driving 90 mph in a 70 mph zone just so the idiot behind me can get to where he is going faster.    

I say... if someone wants to go faster than you, and there is no one in FRONT of you... get out of the way.  Even if you have to slow down briefly to merge with slower traffic to the right and allow him past.  This is JUST MY OPINION.  If the speed limit was 70, and someone was doing 71 in the fastest lane, and would NOT get out of your way... would that irritate you?  If yes... then what's the difference?  9 MPH?  If not... then you are a better man than I am.  If I am running 90 and someone wants to go faster... I'll get out of their way.  Because it irritates ME a lot when someone runs 5 MPH over the speed limit and won't get out of mine. 

Jabba

Actually, the left lane is for passing slower traffic and for turning left....ONLY.  The right lane is for driving.  The left lane IS NOT for driving, cruising, enjoying the scenery or for any other purpose other than passing slower traffic or making left hand turns. 

Don't know about all states, but it states that in the Florida Driver's handbook.  Regardless of how one feels about it, or their interpretation, or their enjoyment from driving in the left lane, it's the law, move the heck over.  Unless your passing someone or making a left hand turn, you're not supposed to be there. 

Yep.  But tell that to the cell phone yakkers.  Anymore, the left lane is the PHONE/TEXTERS LANE.  Really ticks me off...
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Vietnam-474 TFW Takhli 9-12/72 Linebckr II;307 SBW U-Tapao 05/73-4
Jess from VA
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Posts: 30504


No VA


« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2013, 11:49:37 AM »

BF, you are correct. 

However, when both lanes (or all three) are completely filled with traffic, it all goes out the window.

Our huge Hispanic illegal population drives without licenses (and insurance), and are always slow to avoid pullovers........ often in the left lane as well.
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old2soon
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Posts: 23402

Willow Springs mo


« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2013, 11:54:35 AM »

BF, you are correct. 

However, when both lanes (or all three) are completely filled with traffic, it all goes out the window.

Our huge Hispanic illegal population drives without licenses (and insurance), and are always slow to avoid pullovers........ often in the left lane as well.
   Same damn thing here in da Show Me. Starting to think they have more rights than i do. Must be the same folks what got the obumminater phones.  2funny RIDE SAFE.
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check.  1964  1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
VRCCDS0240  2012 GL1800 Gold Wing Motor Trike conversion
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