What is Hydro-Lock?

[Daddie O]

I've heard the term, but I don't exactly know what it means, or how to avoid it.  Any insight would be appreciated.

[Chrisj CMA]

hydro lock is a name for when gas fills a cylinder to the point its "locked" up.  Cant turn over because the fluid (gas) is not compressable.

For this to happen on a Valkyrie, two things must happen.  1. A float valve must stick open, and fuel must be allowed to flow.

If you have an OEM petcock that means the vacuum diaphram has to malfunction, manual petcock, simply needs to be left on

Keep your fuel system clean, gas treated or used quickly and petcock in good working order.  Turn the gas off when trailering and for gosh sake dont keep trying to start it if the first moment of turning over sounds weird.

[Daddie O]

Has me nervous.  Well I just rode the bike 500 miles no problem, and I tossed in a half bottle of techron during the trip for good measure.  Think I'm ok?

[Daddie O]

How do I keep the carbs from getting a float stuck open?  Should I take apart the petcock and rebuild it to be safe?  Should I install a fuel filter?

[John Schmidt]

Dang Murphy, I ran out of breath before I got done reading all that. All one sentence...no periods. C'mon man, you don't talk that way....nobody does, so why type/write that way. You did make some good points though. 

[donaldcc]

most owners remove the OEM petcock and replace it with a manual pingle petcock

  it seems many are worried about this, but also seems to be a very rare event.

  i seriously doubt that "MOST" owners have replaced the OEM petcock.  I have taken it off to inspect and have repair kit, but suspect that most, like me, still have OEM.

[Jess from VA]

I would hazard (guess) that 10-15% may have gone to aftermarket petcocks (Pingle, Golan, etc), which are unquestionably better than OE.

If you will stick with the OE petcock as most of us do (perhaps foolishly), you should order and have on hand the repair COVERSET from HDL (and carry it on any trips). Many times, only the little rubber diaphragm gets a small tear, will then not hold a vacuum, and OFF then allows gas past the petcock.  HDL used to sell a little rebuild kit with just the diaphragm and small parts for $8 or so, but I don't see it anymore.  But the coverset will fix any problem that comes up, and is easier to swap out than having to rebuild the little diaphragm with the cheaper kit.  If you ever use your coverset, immediately order another.

http://www.hondadirectlineofshadyside.com/stores/product.asp?pid=44481&str=2&ID=1013666828

The best way to avoid a carb float valve sticking open (or any other carb problem, and we have 6 of the little bastards), is to ride your bike routinely (using fresh gas).  Running it without riding, in the garage (say until the fan comes on) is arguably worse for the bike overall than not doing so, even though it would get fresh treated gas to the carbs again.

When not routinely riding, keeping the tank full to top with your choice of marine stabil, startron, techron, seafoam, run it fully into the carbs before shutoff, and always turn the rooster off when you get off (this is debated, but why NOT shut it off, bullheadedness?)   The full tank of gas (appx. 42lbs for IS) is right above that little diaphragm .  I cannot get pure gasoline anywhere, and use marine stabil, startron and seafoam in every stored 7-gal tank (because I am utterly lacking in ability to work on those carbs).  

I have heard it said that if you occasionally reach down and shut the petcock off while riding (not in traffic), and the bike never stalls, or takes a very long time to stall, choking along, it indicates the diaphragm is torn, or the petcock is not otherwise holding vacuum.  (is this right?)  There is a proper way to check for vacuum if you have the tool/devise.

Both my '99 interstates have had a torn diaphragm, and been repaired (roughly at 45K, and 65K).  But I have never allowed a carb problem, and swap out bikes every few months (not weeks), and ride much less in Winter.

[MarkT]

Inexpensive fix - or rather, prevention.  Install a Dan-Marc electric fuel shutoff.  I wrote up a tech article on my web site here:  http://www.horseapple.com/Valkyrie/Tech_Tips/Fuel_Shutoff/fuel_shutoff.html

I have the stock petcock.  Which has failed several times in 15 years.  Replaced it once under warranty and cleaned the sand out of it several times.  Now I never cycle it unless I need reserve.  Just let the Dan-Marc shut off the fuel.

[AZdougness]

Inexpensive fix - or rather, prevention.  Install a Dan-Marc electric fuel shutoff.  I wrote up a tech article on my web site here:  http://www.horseapple.com/Valkyrie/Tech_Tips/Fuel_Shutoff/fuel_shutoff.html

I have the stock petcock.  Which has failed several times in 15 years.  Replaced it once under warranty and cleaned the sand out of it several times.  Now I never cycle it unless I need reserve.  Just let the Dan-Marc shut off the fuel.

+1 on this, it's my next project with rebuilding the petcock to not need the no6 vacuum line.

Question for you though MarkT, the relay setup that you have uses a momentary on switch to activate the relay to supply current for the dan marc valve. Does the relay hold the current open until stopped (like hitting the kill switch if that is your power source?)

[Mallett]

my hands got rapped by nuns may times due to my grammer , but knowing your skills with bikes I will take the complement  its my ADHD acting up

Didn't know we were gonna be scored on our grammar here at VRCC, mmurffy03....Thanks for the info you provided...I for one don't really give a chit rather you use periods or commas.....as old Will would say....

"Maybe ain't ain't so correct, but I notice that lots of folks who ain't using ain't ain't eating." - Will Rogers.

[Rams]

most owners remove the OEM petcock and replace it with a manual pingle petcock

One other option not mentioned is a belly tank.  OEM is gravity fed, adding a belly tank means adding a fuel pump with the addition of 3 more gallons of fuel.  I didn't add a belly tank due to the threat of Hydro-lock, I did it because I wanted additional fuel.  The hydro-lock issue is solved because with the belly tank, your fuel tank now drains to the belly tank and is pumped to the carbs.   Search for R&M, Roger the owner is a good guy and stands behind his product.

I and my fat lady used to be the reason the group I ride with had to stop for fuel.  Of course, the others all topped off when I got fuel but, they always let me know about having to stop for the Valkyrie sooner that they normally would.  Now, it's me smiling at the fuel stops. 

Additionally, on some of the trips I've taken, it's a long ways between fuel stops.  It's not always been enough to get where I wanted to go without that necessary fuel stop.  Now, if I ride within the speed limits, 400 miles is possible.  Oh yeah, forgot to mention, I also added an Interstate fuel tank to my Standard.  Let's ride.

[Rams]

 Running it without riding, in the garage (say until the fan comes on) is arguably worse for the bike overall than not doing so, even though it would get fresh treated gas to the carbs again.

Not to disrupt this thread but, I don't understand why this is a bad idea.  I routinely go out and start my fat lady up and let her idle along if she has to set due to weather for more than a week.   I usually allow her to run until the temps get up to operating temps.  That way, I know I've pushed any moisture out of the system and exhaust.  No, I don't put my baby up for the winter, I ride her in all kinds of weather conditions, the only time this is not an option is slick conditions, such as ice, snow and rain.  I've been caught out on her by storms but rarely will I intentionally go out knowing the asphalt is slick.  It just isn't worth it.

[.]

Hmmm. Now I'm worried. 

[Valkorado]

Hmmm. Now I'm worried. 

As a proud owner of a "new" 1997 Tourer, I used to literally stay awake at night worrying about hydrolock.  Having the Dan-Marc installed was a small price to pay for peace of mind.  Make sure your splines are lubed as well, then just enjoy riding one of the most reliable bikes on the road.

[Patrick]

Hmmm. Now I'm worried.  end quote :

Not much need to worry, if it happens it happens. Just tap the start button. If you hear the dreaded 'CLANK', don't try to start it again. Have a plug socket handy and just remove all sparklers and clear the cylinder. Put 'em back in and go ride. It really doesn't take too long to do.

I'm one of the Pingle believers. Its been in for probably 15 years. Think you'll forget to shut off the fuel ? Simple, when the right hand heads for the key just have the left hand go for the valve at the same time. Becomes habit in no time.

[.]

Hmmm. Now I'm worried.  end quote :

Not much need to worry, if it happens it happens. Just tap the start button. If you hear the dreaded 'CLANK', don't try to start it again. Have a plug socket handy and just remove all sparklers and clear the cylinder. Put 'em back in and go ride. It really doesn't take too long to do.

I'm one of the Pingle believers. Its been in for probably 15 years. Think you'll forget to shut off the fuel ? Simple, when the right hand heads for the key just have the left hand go for the valve at the same time. Becomes habit in no time.

Actually, I don't think I ever remember to shut the fuel off. It's never been an issue with the ACE. Mine did hydrolock one time but the starter has barely enough stroke to start the engine so I don't think it can bend a rod or snap a ring. I guess I'd better start changing my ways. Plus, since the Valk has been sitting for several days (been riding the ACE in town-little easier to handle in the downtown area), I'd better check it before I fire it up and change my ways right then. I'm glad I ran across this info.

[Daddie O]

So is the consensus that the belly tank is the most fail safe way to avoid hydro-lock?  $460 is steep, but I guess there is the added benefit of 3 extra gallons of gas.  I would also have to find someone qualified to do the silver welding.

[Rams]

So is the consensus that the belly tank is the most fail safe way to avoid hydro-lock?  $460 is steep, but I guess there is the added benefit of 3 extra gallons of gas.  I would also have to find someone qualified to do the silver welding.

Failsafe, well yes in my opinion.  The pump must be powered on (through the key circuit) for the pump to work so, there is no way for fuel to hydro-lock your engine.

I would think the Pingle Pet rooster is probably the most used solution but, the reason is most likely IMHO, the difference in $$$$.  That's just my opinion.   Additionally, adding the belly tank not only increases your "fuel on board" but, it also lowers the bike's center of gravity.    

Personally, I love the R&M belly tank but as I said previously, I went that way for the additional fuel, not because I was concerned about hydro-lock.  

[Daddie O]

I'd really like the extra fuel too.  Here in California the normal highway cruising speed is 80 mph, and at 80-85 mph the Fat Lady seems to really suck gas.  I was going up some hills at about 85 mph and seemed to get about 25 mpg!  So at 100 miles I was switching to reserve.  I would spend the money for the belly tank if I could find someone good to install it.

[Rams]

I'd really like the extra fuel too.  Here in California the normal highway cruising speed is 80 mph, and at 80-85 mph the Fat Lady seems to really suck gas.  I was going up some hills at about 85 mph and seemed to get about 25 mpg!  So at 100 miles I was switching to reserve.  I would spend the money for the belly tank if I could find someone good to install it.

Installation doesn't require a great mechanic but, it does require someone who can weld/solder on your tank.  For the belly tank, you must drill an additional hole in the tank and then solder/weld in an brass fitting.  Here's a link for you:

http://rmworksinc.com/

Give Roger a call and discuss it with him.  Tell him Ron from Kentucky pointed you his way.  He really is a cool guy.  

[Gryphon Rider]

2 points:

1. I would be more worried about having a heart attack or stroke than my Valkyrie getting hydro-lock.  Hydro-lock has happened on rare occasions, but not enough to justify the angst displayed here.

2. A torn vacuum diaphragm in an OEM petcock has NO effect on your chance of getting hydro-lock.  A torn vacuum diaphragm (item 3, below) simply causes the secondary shutoff to not open fully when your engine is running.  I suppose that the smaller diaphragm (item 2, below) that contacts the fuel could fail to seat against the valve body and allow fuel to flow, but this has nothing to do with a tear.  The weaknesses of the OEM petcock that COULD allow fuel to flow are 1. the ball that blocks fuel flow when you manually shut off the valve may not be fully seated, especially if the handle is not quite turned into the proper position (a Pingle valve uses a different system to shut off flow, and therefore doesn't have this weakness), and 2. if the valve is not manually shut off, with enough excess pressure in the tank, either from the tank's vent tube being blocked and the fuel warming up, or from the bike being jostled while being trailered, the excess pressure could overcome the spring that is holding the secondary shutoff closed, allowing fuel to leak through.

See my "stock setup" sketch below:

[Jess from VA]

 Running it without riding, in the garage (say until the fan comes on) is arguably worse for the bike overall than not doing so, even though it would get fresh treated gas to the carbs again.

Not to disrupt this thread but, I don't understand why this is a bad idea.  I routinely go out and start my fat lady up and let her idle along if she has to set due to weather for more than a week.   I usually allow her to run until the temps get up to operating temps.  That way, I know I've pushed any moisture out of the system and exhaust.  No, I don't put my baby up for the winter, I ride her in all kinds of weather conditions, the only time this is not an option is slick conditions, such as ice, snow and rain.  I've been caught out on her by storms but rarely will I intentionally go out knowing the asphalt is slick.  It just isn't worth it.

This is not a thread disruption, to me.

Well, I have done the same thing for years.  But there have been a number of posts here claiming that this practice does not sufficiently get all the moisture out of the system (oil) and that you end up increasing contamination/acids in the engine, each time you do it, for the remainder of the winter while the bike sits more than runs.  That is what I was referring to. 

I am not one of those who would change oil for winter, then change oil again for spring.

[Jess from VA]

A torn vacuum diaphragm in an OEM petcock has NO effect on your chance of getting hydro-lock.

Well Gryph, I stand corrected, and tip my hat to the better mechanic.  I thought a loss of vacuum could allow (some) gas past the petcock even in the off position.  I am no wrench, I just remember (usually) what I read.  So you are saying that those that have hydrolocked sitting in the garage have probably either left the petcock in ON, or not got the detent ball correctly into the OFF position?

As others have mentioned, hydrolock is a pretty rare happenstance, but the trail of this thread is about proper preventives anyway.   

[Rams]

 Running it without riding, in the garage (say until the fan comes on) is arguably worse for the bike overall than not doing so, even though it would get fresh treated gas to the carbs again.

Not to disrupt this thread but, I don't understand why this is a bad idea.  I routinely go out and start my fat lady up and let her idle along if she has to set due to weather for more than a week.   I usually allow her to run until the temps get up to operating temps.  That way, I know I've pushed any moisture out of the system and exhaust.  No, I don't put my baby up for the winter, I ride her in all kinds of weather conditions, the only time this is not an option is slick conditions, such as ice, snow and rain.  I've been caught out on her by storms but rarely will I intentionally go out knowing the asphalt is slick.  It just isn't worth it.

This is not a thread disruption, to me.

Well, I have done the same thing for years.  But there have been a number of posts here claiming that this practice does not sufficiently get all the moisture out of the system (oil) and that you end up increasing contamination/acids in the engine, each time you do it, for the remainder of the winter while the bike sits more than runs.  That is what I was referring to. 

I am not one of those who would change oil for winter, then change oil again for spring.

OK, I might agree if you only start it, let it idle a few minutes and then shut if down.  As I said, I let mine run until she gets up to operating temps, that is normally indicated when the fan kicks on.  If the engine has gotten up to that temp then, any moisture that may have been in the exhaust is definately gone and in all probility, most if not all of the moisture that may have condensed with in the engine is vaporized and eliminated.  I could be wrong but someone is going to have to prove it to me.   I doubt all of the moisture is ever totally eliminated from any cooling surface and will ultimately return to ambiante levels if left long enough.

[Farther]

most owners remove the OEM petcock and replace it with a manual pingle petcock

I think you are miss-informed.

[Bone]

My 98 Tourer hasn't hydro locked. It did start missing running down the road eventually running on 5 cylinders. Was close to home so I limped home. Pulled the plugs one at a time and the #5 ? was sooty black no spark. Not knowing what caused the plug to foul my first thought was what would I do if away from home . I swapped plugs with the cylinder next to it and the bike started with a miss that went away quickly and was running on 6 cyl. Took it out and it would run about 50 miles and start missing and fouling out the plug. Switched plugs for the ride back all was fine.
Posting my situation here the guys said the diaphragm had a tear and the gas was running down the vacuum line dumping the gas into the cylinder. How right they were I ordered a cover kit and kept riding.
Before the kit arrived someone posted how to by-pass the vaccum feature and make the petock manual operation.

YOU MUST TURN it OFF!
Have been doing that ever since, still have the kit haven't taken time to replace the torn diaphragm.

[Patrick]

Shadowdragon. My post was actually for a Pingle valve. Its good for the OEM as well, but, some of the OEMs have a tendency to still pass fuel when shut off. Thats fairly easy to check. The way the OEM is designed, I've had problems with them, I just don't trust them.

[Jess from VA]

 Running it without riding, in the garage (say until the fan comes on) is arguably worse for the bike overall than not doing so, even though it would get fresh treated gas to the carbs again.

Not to disrupt this thread but, I don't understand why this is a bad idea.  I routinely go out and start my fat lady up and let her idle along if she has to set due to weather for more than a week.   I usually allow her to run until the temps get up to operating temps.  That way, I know I've pushed any moisture out of the system and exhaust.  No, I don't put my baby up for the winter, I ride her in all kinds of weather conditions, the only time this is not an option is slick conditions, such as ice, snow and rain.  I've been caught out on her by storms but rarely will I intentionally go out knowing the asphalt is slick.  It just isn't worth it.

This is not a thread disruption, to me.

Well, I have done the same thing for years.  But there have been a number of posts here claiming that this practice does not sufficiently get all the moisture out of the system (oil) and that you end up increasing contamination/acids in the engine, each time you do it, for the remainder of the winter while the bike sits more than runs.  That is what I was referring to. 

I am not one of those who would change oil for winter, then change oil again for spring.

OK, I might agree if you only start it, let it idle a few minutes and then shut if down.  As I said, I let mine run until she gets up to operating temps, that is normally indicated when the fan kicks on.  If the engine has gotten up to that temp then, any moisture that may have been in the exhaust is definately gone and in all probility, most if not all of the moisture that may have condensed with in the engine is vaporized and eliminated.  I could be wrong but someone is going to have to prove it to me.   I doubt all of the moisture is ever totally eliminated from any cooling surface and will ultimately return to ambiante levels if left long enough.

OK, I'm sold (again).  The supervalk is down for the winter with leaking fork and missing bag lid and I'm going to go out and run it.  I always ran them to hot/fan as well. 

[.]

Well, I suspect I'll look into the Pingle Valve installation but in the interim get into the habit of turning off the fuel. And, for the time being, I'll ride the Fat Lady and quit worrying about some of this stuff. Thanks! (Even though this wasn't my thread to begin with-I just hitched a ride) 

[Chrisj CMA]

My best advise for OEM petcock users.

Whether you leave it on turn it off use reserve, never use reserve.  There is a little ball that snaps into an indent to tell you the valve is in position.  You need to feel that ball click in and give the knob a little wiggle to double check you are "in" what ever position you have chosen.  If the ball is hung up YOU ARE ON RESERVE.

Secondly as you remove the gas tank and take that selector knob off the petcock and replace.  It is easy to get things misaligned slightly so the switch doesnt turn smoothely and the little ball cannot be dected as it snaps in.  Be on the look out for this and correct it.  the knob should turn freely and the ball should SNAP in securely. 

Last thing you want is the knob to appear to be off but its really flowing on reserve.......contributes to possible lock

[Ricky-D]

Damage is not a guarantee with hydrolock.

If damage occurs, it is usually with the starter gear system.

It will break some gear teeth and occasionally part of the motor at a boss which mothers the shaft that holds one of the starter gears in the less than simple gear system.

Moderate detail repair job.

***

[ptgb]

Failsafe, well yes in my opinion.  The pump must be powered on (through the key circuit) for the pump to work so, there is no way for fuel to hydro-lock your engine.

As I was thinking about this... is it really failsafe? I had a belly tank on my Standard (since sold). When you turn the key on, the pump starts pumping away. Is this not pumping fuel to the carb banks? If you have a float open, is it not then pumping this fuel into the cylinder?

I realize it is just a second or two from turning the key on to pressing the starter button... would that not be enough time to load up a cylinder with fuel? Or what happens when you turn the key, get distracted or something and it is 10, 20, or 45 seconds before you push the button with the pump just pumping away...

I am not trying to be a wet blanket, I really don't know whether my "hypothesis" holds any water (or fuel for that matter)... what say you?

[Farther]

what say you?

I have a belly tank and I think you are correct.

[john]

        " I'll ride the Fat Lady and quit worrying about some of this stuff "               

[salty1]

Daddy O my 2 cents, replace the petcock with an OEM petcock and put a Dan Marc fuel shutoff valve downstream to eliminate a hydrolock. At this point you might want to consider desmogging your bike too. I haven't seen any need for a fuel filter. Use a fuel additive (Techron, Chemtool, Seafoam, etc) periodically to keep the carbs cleaned up. Enjoy your new ride! 

[Mallett]

        " I'll ride the Fat Lady and quit worrying about some of this stuff "               

+1 John, I personally think the reason for hydro-lock is failure to ride our gurls like they like it...Hard & often...of course that's just my opinion....

[Big Ed]

Opinions please on the best place to wire the Dan Marc shutoff value to.

Thanks...

[Denny47]

Opinions please on the best place to wire the Dan Marc shutoff value to.

Thanks...

Several ways to go, one is the 2 wire accessory wire located behind right side cover above the fuses (along the frame). Many posts on this subject, search      Dan-Mark valve. This valve only pulls maybe 1.5 amps and the accessory wires are good for 5 amps. One of the wires is hot with key on and the other is ground.

[AZdougness]

Opinions please on the best place to wire the Dan Marc shutoff value to.

Thanks...

Desmog. Right where the Pair valve used to sit is wide open and right inline with the fuel T for both carb banks.

[alph]

best way to prevent "hydro-lock" is to make sure your carbs are drained every winter to prevent varnishing that causes the needle valve to stick (open or closed), and to check your carb bowl over flow tubes for being plugged up not allowing the overflow to drain out.  the main cause for the fuel to go to the cylinder is because the drain plug off of the bowl is blocked giving the fuel nowhere else to go but into the cylinder.

if you can, avoid ethanol mixed fuel, this deteriorates the small rubber gasket on the tip of the needle valve.  but it does take a while for that to happen.

run a bottle of carb-cleaner once in a while (once a summer is probably about right), most everyone likes "sea-foam" but "techron", "STP", and other carb cleaners work just as good.

by the way, i rarely ever close my tank valve, my cycle is a '99 I/S with 80k miles and i never worry about it.  too many other things to keep me up at night.....

there are millions of motor cycles out there with the same type of petcock design as the Valkyrie.  this really isn't an issue if you take care of your fuel system once in a great while.