Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
Member
Posts: 13833
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« on: May 04, 2013, 04:51:19 PM » |
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Do the two holes in the final drive provide all that's needed to keep the pinion cup lubed ?
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 I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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Mallett
Member
Posts: 511
Oh, what a ride!!!!
Laurel, Mississippi
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2013, 05:26:25 PM » |
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LOL, I once thought so...not sure anymore...gonna keep a little 3% moly on mine too...
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Any coward can fight a battle when he's sure of winning; but give me the man who has pluck to fight when he's sure of losing.
GEORGE ELIOT
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sandy
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2013, 05:49:45 PM » |
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Joe: I grease mine as if no gear oil comes up. 134K and no problems.
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Highbinder
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2013, 06:00:21 PM » |
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If it's working properly its' fine...I spoke to Hard6 about it one time and he said you've got a 50/50 chance that it works and that he greases the shaft every time he changes tires...myself I make sure the holes are clear and working and I have not had a problem, the book calls for just a spot of grease on the end of the shaft if I remember correctly...basically its your call..
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NITRO
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2013, 06:02:21 PM » |
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 Joe: I grease mine as if no gear oil comes up. 134K and no problems.
Same here, fewer miles though. I use the same Green Grease in the splines and pinion both. The grease comes out looking the same as it went in, and all final drive parts are still perfect.
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When in doubt, ride.
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Warlock
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2013, 06:34:26 PM » |
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Do the two holes in the final drive provide all that's needed to keep the pinion cup lubed ?
I always put grease on the drive shaft and just a little just inside of the cup. Not too much so it doesn't push in and stop up the 2 holes. david |
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 I don't want to hear the labor pains, I just want to see the baby |
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Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
Member
Posts: 13833
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2013, 08:25:34 PM » |
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I pretty much apply it on both shaft and pinion cup with about 50/50 Green Grease and Honda Moly, I've used Gaurd Dog Moly as well some might say I use too much.... Mine always has grease on it at maintence time ( KNOCKING ON WOOD ) . I've heard yes the " holes " lube the cup and no it does'nt  Everytime I pull the final drive I have fluid coming out the holes when tilted...DAMNIFIKNOW. |
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« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 08:31:50 PM by Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005 »
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I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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pancho
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2013, 08:29:37 PM » |
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The shop manual calls for two grams of Molybdenum Disulfide Grease,, at least 3%.. Here is exactly 2 grams of grease..  |
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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BonS
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2013, 08:30:22 PM » |
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I'm squarely in the camp of the lubricating holes theory. They wouldn't be there if the didn't do anything. After cleaning out the cup I blow the holes open with puffs of compressed air and add only 2-3 grams of moly paste onto the splines. So far so good.
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pancho
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2013, 08:31:04 PM » |
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It is enough to keep the pinion cup well lubricated.
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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pancho
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2013, 09:38:16 PM » |
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I pretty much apply it on both shaft and pinion cup with about 50/50 Green Grease and Honda Moly, I've used Gaurd Dog Moly as well some might say I use too much.... Mine always has grease on it at maintence time ( KNOCKING ON WOOD ) . I've heard yes the " holes " lube the cup and no it does'nt Everytime I pull the final drive I have fluid coming out the holes when tilted...DAMNIFIKNOW. Lets see, every time you pull your drive you have oil in the final, and grease in the pinion cup............. sounds like you got it right |
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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Brian
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2013, 02:30:26 PM » |
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I have to ask a stupid question here. How does the final drive lube get up in there with out a pump to force it up there to keep the pinion cut properly lubed if you didn't use a small amount of moly grease? The shop manual says nothing about using 80w when putting the shaft back in the pinion cup. Could the weep holes be there to allow grease to pushed into the final drive rather than taking a chance of pushing the grease out around the shaft seal?
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9Ball
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2013, 02:46:09 PM » |
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I have to ask a stupid question here. How does the final drive lube get up in there with out a pump to force it up there to keep the pinion cut properly lubed if you didn't use a small amount of moly grease? The shop manual says nothing about using 80w when putting the shaft back in the pinion cup. Could the weep holes be there to allow grease to pushed into the final drive rather than taking a chance of pushing the grease out around the shaft seal?
that's as good a theory as any...I like it. |
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VRCC #6897, Joined May, 2000
1999 Standard
2007 Rocket 3
2005 VTX 1300S
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5492
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2013, 04:09:13 PM » |
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The holes do the lube job, Honda calls for moly grease (and not much) as an assembly lube when dry.
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer  |
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Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
Member
Posts: 13833
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2013, 04:46:24 PM » |
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The holes do the lube job, Honda calls for moly grease (and not much) as an assembly lube when dry.
One would think if that's the case ...Why did they make the holes so small ??? How does the gear oil get up there ? Does the Honda manual have anything to say about the " holes " being there to lube the pinion cup and drive-shaft ? |
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I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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98valk
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« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2013, 05:46:18 PM » |
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I have always maintained that the holes are actually vent holes for the gear box and not for lubrication of the splines per honda's requirement for high % moly paste. The site below sides with me. http://mcmoto.aomx.de/maintain.html"Splines on motorcycles are used to connect power transmitting parts. It is a simple an efficient way to do the job. Spline parts that move in and out or rock back and forth on their spline surface need constant lubrication to limit their ware. These type of spline parts should run in oil. Most motorcycles that use moving splines always have the parts running in oil. Motorcycle manufacturer such as BMW Moto Guzzi and Honda for some models (notably the Goldwing 1500) prefer to use a simpler and more economical approach that use dry splines that need periodic maintenance and greasing , this is cheap and lazy engineering." http://mcmoto.aomx.de/maintain.html |
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C 10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp
"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
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Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
Member
Posts: 13833
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2013, 05:59:54 PM » |
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I have always maintained that the holes are actually vent holes for the gear box and not for lubrication of the splines per honda's requirement for high % moly paste. The site below sides with me. http://mcmoto.aomx.de/maintain.html"Splines on motorcycles are used to connect power transmitting parts. It is a simple an efficient way to do the job. Spline parts that move in and out or rock back and forth on their spline surface need constant lubrication to limit their ware. These type of spline parts should run in oil. Most motorcycles that use moving splines always have the parts running in oil. Motorcycle manufacturer such as BMW Moto Guzzi and Honda for some models (notably the Goldwing 1500) prefer to use a simpler and more economical approach that use dry splines that need periodic maintenance and greasing , this is cheap and lazy engineering." http://mcmoto.aomx.de/maintain.htmlAt the least Honda could have engineered a grease fitting so you could give it alittle taste from time to time. Im amazed that in 16 years of the Valkyrie someone hasn't gone just that |
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I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5492
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2013, 07:01:33 PM » |
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The Honda manual is meant as a supplement/reference for somebody that's been trained/certified. From what I've seen the non-honda manuals (clymer/such) are poor/partial copies of some of the info in the service manual.
Coming to Inzane? I'll have one there in pieces and I'll show you.
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer |
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Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005
Member
Posts: 13833
American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God.
Beautiful east Tennessee ( GOD'S Country )
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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2013, 07:51:36 PM » |
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The Honda manual is meant as a supplement/reference for somebody that's been trained/certified. From what I've seen the non-honda manuals (clymer/such) are poor/partial copies of some of the info in the service manual.
Coming to Inzane? I'll have one there in pieces and I'll show you.
I just did mine so I have no doubt gear oil will pour into the pinion cup if you "Tilt " it and make it run out downhill.... How does it pour,flow ,squrit or get slung uphill when its mounted on the bike ? |
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I've seen alot of people that thought they were cool , but then again Lord I've seen alot of fools. |
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RP#62
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2013, 07:57:35 PM » |
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OK, I've let you guys suffer enough. Here's why the holes are there.
If you're stupid enough to thoroughly clean the pinion cup and drive shaft and then dry fit them together. Short of a cutting torch, the only way you're going to be able to get them back apart is by putting oil back in the final drive and then tilting it up so that it can run through the holes and into the pinion cup. That spring clip on the end of the drive shaft needs some lube on it to be able to disengage and even then it can be stubborn. If you fit it together dry, it ain't coming apart, even if you yank on it for all you're worth and call it names.
Thank you Honda for those holes.
-RP
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signart
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2013, 06:05:18 AM » |
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If that's true, and it makes sense to me by the way, you really can't put too much of the proper lubricant in the pinion cup?
This horse is not really dead yet, but we need to put it out of it's misery. I have yet to do a rear end maintenance and am eager to experience this. I am gathering all the info from every thread hoping to do my first one right.
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old2soon
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2013, 07:33:08 AM » |
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When I got into mine the P-cup actually-on mine anywho-has slots as opposed to drilled holes. And as I stated in another post-dripping wet with the 80/90 synthetic gear oil I use. I have been fortunate with my I/S after seeing some of the P-cups and splines that are toasted.  I look at that P-cup setup and I can't help but think how OFTEN I slam that throttle W F O.  And I can't help but remember how often the front end comes up WHEN I slam the throttle W F O.  Will I change my riding style??  Probably not.  RIDE SAFE. |
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check. 1964 1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
VRCCDS0240 2012 GL1800 Gold Wing Motor Trike conversion
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Fudd
Member
Posts: 1733
MSF RiderCoach
Denham Springs, La.
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2013, 07:40:57 AM » |
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I have always maintained that the holes are actually vent holes for the gear box and not for lubrication of the splines
I kinda thought that chrome knob on top of the pumpkin was supposed to take care of the venting. Years ago, I would grease the snot out of the pinion cup, to the point where I had to remove some grease to get it to reassemble. After being told I was doing it all wrong, I cleaned the "holes" real well with air and started using just enough moly for assembly. I have relied on rear-end oil to keep the pinion lubed. Being that the pinion cup is a "wobble fitting", it seams like it would need constant oiling and grease by itself would be mashed away from the friction contact area of the splines. I'm not trying to argue anything. I just want to learn "what's the best method" for maintaining my Valkyrie. |
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 Save a horse, ride a Valkyrie |
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Rio Wil
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2013, 09:01:48 AM » |
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Ok....here is the scoop....IMHO.. There are two holes drilled in the p/c. One of those holes has another hole drilled at a right angle into the straight hole. Notice the hole drilled from the side, is at a slight angle off center. Also note this hole is drilled on the final drive side of the oil seal (not the seal on the drive shaft) and not on the drive shaft side. This allows the off center hole to scoop a little final drive fluid and gently force it into the pinion cup and drive shaft splines. Excess oil is returned to the final drive through both straight holes to insure you do not pressurize the p/c and force oil past the drive shaft seal or unseat the drive shaft seal and deplete the amount of lube in the final drive. The small amount of grease used as initial lube in the splines is to insure they get lubed immediately upon reassembly and then the little scooper hole starts to do its job. That's my story and I'm, sticking to it.........  |
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signart
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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2013, 09:37:24 AM » |
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How is it explained that several riders in the recent and current threads scattered about here report no gear oil on the parts in question and perfectly lubricated p-cup upon inspection? I for one am puzzled by specific lube requirements for each end of drive shaft, but one end is to be mixed with a gear oil? Doesn't make sense, keep beatin' this thing so it can rest in peace.
I agree with Joe about a simple grease fitting would have made things so much simpler.
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16781
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2013, 10:09:08 AM » |
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I agree with Joe about a simple grease fitting would have made things so much simpler.
I only agree in so far as it seems like it would be handy... but I can't imagine how a zerk fitting
could be exposed, since the pinion cup both spins and is enclosed inside the swingarm...
-Mike
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Denny47
Member
Posts: 307
#34898
Grove, Ok.
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2013, 05:04:33 PM » |
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I can only think of one way to test the oil getting into the pinion cup. An inventive, mechanical type person could make a stand to support a rear end with tire and wheel attached and, no drive shaft, the cup open to view, apply some type of power to the tire and run at different speeds to see if any oil is transferred to the cup. Only way I can think of to figure this matter out.
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1997 Green/Cream Tourer w/ Cobra 6/6 exhaust, 2012 Pearl White Goldwing
USAF 66-70, F-105 AWCS
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Brian
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2013, 05:48:48 PM » |
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Ok....here is the scoop....IMHO.. There are two holes drilled in the p/c. One of those holes has another hole drilled at a right angle into the straight hole. Notice the hole drilled from the side, is at a slight angle off center. Also note this hole is drilled on the final drive side of the oil seal (not the seal on the drive shaft) and not on the drive shaft side. This allows the off center hole to scoop a little final drive fluid and gently force it into the pinion cup and drive shaft splines. Excess oil is returned to the final drive through both straight holes to insure you do not pressurize the p/c and force oil past the drive shaft seal or unseat the drive shaft seal and deplete the amount of lube in the final drive. The small amount of grease used as initial lube in the splines is to insure they get lubed immediately upon reassembly and then the little scooper hole starts to do its job. That's my story and I'm, sticking to it......... I really don't think we are beating a dead horse at all here. Rio Wil could have won the prize here as I had to go check my new spare p/c and sure enough the holes are cut like he said. The speed at which this spins will no doubt do exactly what he stated here. Makes me rethink about the amount of moly grease I am using. |
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Daniel Meyer
Member
Posts: 5492
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2013, 08:19:58 PM » |
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The Honda manual is meant as a supplement/reference for somebody that's been trained/certified. From what I've seen the non-honda manuals (clymer/such) are poor/partial copies of some of the info in the service manual.
Coming to Inzane? I'll have one there in pieces and I'll show you.
I just did mine so I have no doubt gear oil will pour into the pinion cup if you "Tilt " it and make it run out downhill.... How does it pour,flow ,squrit or get slung uphill when its mounted on the bike ? Same way that big ol' bearing up there in the top of the gear case (just under the pinion cup) gets lubed. Hypoid crawls and slings. The holes in the cup are milled to intake some of that and allow it to drain back. Like I said, stop by, it's MUCH easier to explain in person, with parts in hand. One day I'll make a video of it...orient the rear end correctly and spin it with the star (reasonably fast) and oil flys out of the cup. |
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer |
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pancho
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« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2013, 05:43:53 AM » |
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Just follow the instructions in the service manual and lube it up generously with moly grease. Cant go wrong.
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2013, 10:36:48 AM » |
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The holes in the pinion cup are not machined but rather cast-in. Investment cast, looks like.
The few instances where pumpkin lubricant gets up and in the pinion cast is and can be attributed to having more lubricant in the pumpkin than called for by the manual.
If you discount this, simply put more lubricant in your pumpkin (overfill that is) and observe.
***
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16781
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2013, 11:08:28 AM » |
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The holes in the pinion cup are not machined but rather cast-in.
As I've been taking apart Valkyrie and 1500 Wing final drives lately, I've
found numerous "same part number parts" that get manufactured differently
over the years.
My brand new drive shaft looks to be manufactured very differently than
some others I have, everything looks machined on the older ones, some
features seem stamped (some kind of way) on my new one... I don't
have any brand new pinion cups, although I may need to get at least one.
I'll be real tempted to compare how it is made compared to the older ones...
-Mike "not a machinist"
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signart
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« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2013, 02:09:00 PM » |
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The holes in the pinion cup are not machined but rather cast-in. Investment cast, looks like.
The few instances where pumpkin lubricant gets up and in the pinion cast is and can be attributed to having more lubricant in the pumpkin than called for by the manual.
If you discount this, simply put more lubricant in your pumpkin (overfill that is) and observe.
***
So, are you in the camp that does not contend that the p-cup area is intended to be lubricated by the gear oil? |
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Brian
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« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2013, 03:20:00 AM » |
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Now seeing how the holes are in the p/c using a pipe cleaner or a little compressed air may not necessarily mean the scavenger hole of the side is open. Sorry, it's just a thought.
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2013, 10:06:18 AM » |
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When the pinion cup is installed, there is an interference of the bottom hole due to the inner race of the ball bearing immediately under the pinion cup.
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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Valkpilot
Member
Posts: 2151
What does the data say?
Corinth, Texas
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« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2013, 11:35:58 AM » |
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When the pinion cup is installed, there is an interference of the bottom hole due to the inner race of the ball bearing immediately under the pinion cup.
***
I don't believe so. The base of the pinion cup extends beyond the oil seal, exposing the holes to the interior of the drive where the oil is slung about by gear action. The pickup hole is on the side of the pinion cup, the return hole is let into the base of the pinion cup to avoid interference with the flat surface on which it rides.. |
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« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 11:48:59 AM by Valkpilot »
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VRCC #19757 IBA #44686 1998 Black Standard 2007 Goldwing   |
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stude31
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« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2013, 10:20:46 PM » |
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Whether the pinion cup is lubed with paste or by the two holes allowing final drive lube into the pinion cup, if the dust/oil seal does not stay in place on the drive shaft protecting moisture and oil to escape you will be replacing drive shaft,pinion cup, and dust seal. This just happened to a friend of mine.
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