no spark

[csj]

I had my 98 Tourer quit out on the highway, had to
get towed in.
Got home, took off the spark plug boot, plugged another plug, set electrode
against bike metal, cranked her over, did not see spark on the plug.
Waited a while, tried it again, saw spark for 1 second, then spark failed again.
While I saw the spark the bike gave a try at starting, then just spun again.
So, I went to the local stealer, was able to approach the mechanic, lucky break,
he thought it should be capacitors not holding charge in the
Ignition Control Module. So I ordered the module. A bit expensive.
I figure it's preventive maintenance.

Anbody have any other ideas.   chris

[R J]

I'd bet my $$$$ on this little replacement item..



You have to move the big red wire in the holder to match the Valkyrie.  NO big deal.



You starter relay probably looks like this right about now.

It is under the rigth side cover, and when ya get done replacing this new part, check all the connections in that boot to make sure they are connnected.  Especially the GREEN wires.   They are grounds...

[csj]

I had that same connector meltdown on my old '83 1100 honda magna.
I looked for any deformed connector on either side of the bike.
Couldn't find anything melted. I'll try again tomorrow, raining out now.

If that harness was melted, wouldn't the starter motor also not spin?
Are the two paths fed separately?

Thanks for the response RJ, I did read your same reply to someone else
a while ago, the connector was the first thing I went looking for. chris

[Thunderbolt]

a connector corroded, the connector to the ICM partially connected.  Just some ideas.
Here is a link to RP Brown's schematics from Rattlebars site.  R P spent a lot of time and effort to make these.  Save the link in case you need it for something later on.

http://www.rattlebars.com/valkfaq/schematics/

[csj]

The ICM module appears to be buried in behind the coolant reservoir bottle.
I have to unbolt the bottle, get in there and see if there's any poor connection at the ICM.
I'll try that tomorrow.

Except for the fact that most everything has a fine layer of dust on it, the connections all look,
so far, in pretty good shape for an eleven year old bike. I was really expecting to find that
melted connector in there somewhere, not yet.

One other thing worth mentioning, when I boost the battery from the (not running) car,
the current draw appears to be very high. The booster cables are very warm
after 30 seconds of cranking. When boosting cars in previous years, I don't remember
the cables getting AS warm as that.

[Thunderbolt]

the bottle is fragile and will break off the nipple if you are not careful.

[Patrick]

I have not heard of a factory ICM failing.. Thats not to say that one can't fail,, just haven't heard of one failing over the past 11 years.. Check all the connections especially the grounds.. I'd check to make sure you have good alternator output and a good battery.. These engines will crank but not start with a bad battery.. A couple folks have had pulse generators fail [ these are the two little guys inside the front cover]..

[csj]

Ok, thank-you for that, I went to the stealer and cancelled the order
for the ICM, then ordered the Pulse generator harness.

Hope that's what it is. I also got a brand new gel-cell battery,
put it in cranked it over, it tried to start, then sat there spinning again.
I'm going to try the peak voltage testing tomorrow, maybe it's
a coil that's gone. The stealer wants ~$140 each coil, whew,
hope it aint that.

A buddy who once owned goldwings thinks even if a coil WAS gone
the bike ought to start, then just run badly. This bike just won't start.

I checked a lot of connections, not everything, some of it is hard
to reach, and I remember  how my old Magna used to have connections
break when pushed and twisted. Trying to be careful.

[Chrisj CMA]

the whole problem sounds like a weak battery to me.  turns over but no fire.  Since it died while riding, Id suspect the alternator or the 55A fusable link.......

[csj]

Thank-you for the response. I replaced the battery with a new one, very strong,
the bike cranks over very fast now, still does not start.
I checked the spark again, it's there for 1 second, the bike tries again,
then the spark disappears, then just cranking, no go.

I checked all the fuses, and the 55A fusible, they are all there, no opens.

I'm down to the pulse generator(s), can that stop it from making spark?
The bike manual says maybe. Anyone have the pulse generator give trouble?

What else can I test?

[Bone]

One other thing worth mentioning, when I boost the battery from the (not running) car,
the current draw appears to be very high. The booster cables are very warm
after 30 seconds of cranking. When boosting cars in previous years, I don't remember
the cables getting AS warm as that.

I'm not an electrical troubleshooter. Your statement about this high current draw has me wondering why that was or is still happening.
Have you found any answers to the warm cables ?

[csj]

Yeah, I thought about what happened there. I had been cranking and cranking
with the old battery, it ran down to the point where it was clear that the low voltage
would no longer light it up, so then I used the car with jumper cables.
The cables at that point were quite warm after 40 seconds cranking,
the crank speed was good, the old battery was in place. Then I took
the old battery out, tried cranking directly from the car through about 5 feet of cable.
By that point the cables had cooled mostly. Cranking directly from the car
the cables were again quite warm. The warmest part was where the crimp
is, in the big alligator. I was wondering if there was a Really low impedance to Gnd. Still looking.

I still need to know, could the bike not start because the Pulse Generator is bad.

[csj]

Hey, Chrisj the CMA suggested that the alternator could be the problem.
On my old Magna, the alternator did die, but the bike did start, even with
a shorted out alternator. It just could not run for too long, battery ran down.

Is it possible that an alternator with a problem could cause the spark to disappear?
Can that happen on a Valkyrie?

I tried watching the battery voltage while cranking with the new battery, you might think
that while cranking, the then turning alternator would create Some extra voltage
that could be seen on the voltmeter. Nope. About 10V while cranking. Probably normal.
Thoughts

[Bone]

I have read on this board that a Valk will crank quickly even though there is not enough voltage to fire. 10 volts would be too low to fire the ignition.
You said the spark was there for 1 second then gone. Was that when the voltage dropped and stopped the ignition from making spark ?

[csj]

I have read on this board that a Valk will crank quickly even though there is not enough voltage to fire. 10 volts would be too low to fire the ignition.
You said the spark was there for 1 second then gone. Was that when the voltage dropped and stopped the ignition from making spark ?

Bone, thanks for responding. Yes the spark appears to disappear when the voltage goes to 10V.
The voltage was measured right at the battery, but the meter has only two digits, very low resolution,
so the actual voltage could be 10.9 and I wouldn't know. I believe that even a car battery voltage
can get into the 10s when cranking. Gettin to be a PITA. I'll look now, to see if there could be
a bad connection in the lines.

The new Pulse generators come in Friday, still asking if that could be it.

[bassman]

From experience - yes it definitely could be and probablyt is (s9ince you've pretty much eliminated everything else) could be your IPGs....mine took a dump a couple of years ago - engine turned over but no spark...replace battery, jumped it with a car battery etc and still no start.....IF you want more reading on my experience go to the TECH ARCHINVES and type in "bassman" for a search and go back to the mid 2005 or 2006 under something like "no startie" in the subject line and you should be able to track my experiences.....

Good luck.....been there, done that and got the T-shirt !!

[Kingbee]

Lets not forget, he said the bike quit while riding, but starter would turn it over afterwards.

That eliminates:

Alternator
Battery
Fuseable link
Ignition pulse generators - There's no way all three would fail at once, and if one failed, the bike would still run on 4 cylinders.

He also said the bike would "try" to fire on occasion. That sounds like lack of fuel

Let's keep thinking.

Maybe the lack of apparant spark while testing is from low voltage and/or poor jumper cables.  Who is to say the bike didn't originally quit due to a fuel delivery problem?

Have you tested the carb drains to see if the carbs are full of fuel?

[Bone]

So, I went to the local stealer, was able to approach the mechanic, lucky break,
he thought it should be capacitors not holding charge in the
Ignition Control Module.

Did we rule out the Capacitors ?

[RP#62]

Lets not forget, he said the bike quit while riding, but starter would turn it over afterwards.

That eliminates:

Alternator
Battery
Fuseable link
Ignition pulse generators - There's no way all three would fail at once, and if one failed, the bike would still run on 4 cylinders.

He also said the bike would "try" to fire on occasion. That sounds like lack of fuel

I'm with you on everything except the pulse generators.  Two installed, two required - one tells the ICM RPM and the other gives crank position (at least if this motor works like every other motor with 2 pulse generators).
-RP

Let's keep thinking.

Maybe the lack of apparant spark while testing is from low voltage and/or poor jumper cables.  Who is to say the bike didn't originally quit due to a fuel delivery problem?

Have you tested the carb drains to see if the carbs are full of fuel?

[Kingbee]

Dopey me on the 3 pulse generators,,,  but it could still be fuel related.  If a PG failed, I don't think it would "try" to start.

[Chrisj CMA]

I suggested you check the alternator and the 55A fusable link because I blew my fusable link a couple years ago while doing alternator work without knowing I blew it.  For a couple days there It was very strange all the electrical things that were going on.  wouldnt start, no spark, no tach when it did start, battery run down very quick even after a trickle charge.

But since you checked that, I am thinking a bad ground to frame connection is the only thing that makes sense to me

[Madmike]

There is a spec for resistance of the pulse generator coils in the Goldwing manual, it calls for 400-500 Ohms checked at the first connector from the coils.

'97 Goldwing pulse generator coil 30300-MN5-003
'97 Valkyrie pulse generator coil 30300-MZ0-003

The Valk manual that I have calls for a peak voltage test of the pulse generators, but if you don't have the rigging for that the Ohmmeter will at least tell you if you have an open coil maybe.

Part of the troubleshooting in the Goldwing manual is to check the multipin at the ICM for tight/clean etc. so you may want to try that if you haven't already done so.

When you checked spark did you pull all the plugs or just one?

The other thing that the Wing manual suggests is to check that the pulse generators are securely in place and haven't "slipped".

[csj]

I received the Pulse generator set today, got it home and got going. Had to take off the tank, took a while making sure to not cut/break one of those three hoses under the tank. I thought that before I get ripping things apart I should check the air filter. It was very full 'o crap. Replaced that. Then found the white four pin connector for the pulse generator. Oh jeez, wires disappear down the neck and, I guess to behind the belt cover. OK I'm not a newbie, but gettin in behind the rad, makes me queezy. Then I thought, wait a minute, if I install this pulse generator wrong could I possibly mess up the timing and hurt the engine. Seems unlikely that the ICM would let that happen, just asking please.    As per Chrisj, I checked the big ground cable from the battery to frame - looks OK.
I checked the ICM connections after the coolant bottle came out - connections are at a hard right angle - but OK
I have not yet found a corroded connector anywhere - things Appear to be in good shape
I have not yet checked the carb drains for fuel- went and took the tank off - still gotta do that.

I didn't do the PG yet, got queezy, somebody tell me it's safe, just do it.

[Kingbee]

Before you remove the old PGs, mark one of them as to where it goes, then remove the set.  When you examine the set, you'll notice the leads are longer to one PG. Because you marked one, and know where it goes, you'll be able to compare the new set to the old, and install it accordingly.  I don't remember now, but it could also be that the bolt holes are different on each PG, meaning you can't install them wrong anyway.

[Udo]

I´ve had the pulse generators going south, both together. Yup the bike will crank without (or low) pulse signal. I would measure the peak voltage of the generators. There are 2 of them, as far, as i know, not 4.

I don´t believe, that a coil is bad. The bike would run with 2 coils working on 4 cylinders. And all coils at the same time bad? Don´t think, that will happen.....

[csj]

OK, I got the big girl back from the stealer, I wouldn't have gone there, they were the only shop that was Slow enough that they could take my bike. They're slow for a reason.

It was two items; 1/ replace all spark plugs, 2/ drain carbs and put in new gas. That's it? He said that after
replacing the plugs it was still only running on 4 cyl., when he drained carbs and did new gas, it ran,
as he said, 'much better'. Now that I have it, it runs the same as before the problem, quite well.

How can replacing gas and plugs bring back spark that was only there for one second? Don't make sense.

Worse, when I wheeled it out of the shop, the neutral light does not come on, wont start unless the clutch
is pulled in. They hose me for a bunch o cash, and introduce a new problem. I'll fix this one myself.   chris