Rear Drive Problem/Questions

[hoppy]

Hi all, long time lurker, first post.  98 Tourer, 34k miles.  I'm probably the third owner.

When coming home from work last week, got a weird sort of powertrain flutter when I was letting off the throttle at about 50mph.

After taking of from the next intersection, took off like a granny, got clear of traffic, and then hit the throttle.  This got me a nice couple of drive train pops, repeated this, and got easier to do, so I pulled off the road.

Back in a neighborhood, did this a couple of more times, and eventually it got loose enough that I couldn't get the bike to move hardley at all with it 'grring' out with a grinding sound.  Trailered home.

Today, I took everything apart from the transmission case back, and started looking at it, expecting to find some sort of disaster.  Oddly enough, most of it looks good.

Unfortunately, I have owned this bike for two rear tire changes, the first was done by a shop in Arkansas, on an emergency basis when I was stranded (so I didn't get to be involved).  The second was done be me, before I had all the intel on the rear drive orings, etc.  I found the spline dry and oxidized when I did this one.

So, since this is my first valk, I have no point of reference for things.

Obviously I lubed the spline on the last change (now 7K ago), and it is certainly not dry, but would be described as more like "gummy".  Not ideal, but not a trainwreck.  The o-rings are AWOL for the most part.

So I fit the wheel spline to the pumpkin, and yeah, there is considerable of rotational play, and there is also more wobble play (tire laying down, in a plane parallel to the tire), than I would have expected -- splines are supposed to fit tight, right?

So these look a bit off to me, and I'm sure looking at parts to replace the pumpkin side, and the wheel side, but the real boggle to me is this.  Even though this is all "not right", I'll be cursed if I can see how this would be the source of the symptom I started with.  Even though things are all sloppy in there, I don't see it allowing one side of that spline to rotate without the other.  It isn't that sloppy, or even close.

The only thing I can thing of is that somehow the real wheel "sandwich" is corrupted to the point that the wheel side of the spline has a way to migrate out of the pumpkin spline, and managed to just hang on by the very edge of the spline, and eventually chewed enough of this off to get loose.

So first question, how much slop is expected in this spline connection between the rear wheel and the pumpkin?

second, anybody see any of this before?

third, is it possible that the symptoms are caused by something upstream, like in the transmission?

fourth, how much hell am in in for if I crack into the pumpkin and attemp to replace the gearset?

Thanks,
Hoppy

[Rio Wil]

You did not say anything about inspecting the ujoinr.....how about a picture of the final drive splines and the pumpkin splines.....how about the drive shaft splines and pinion cup too.....

[Gryphon Rider]

You said the o-rings were AWOL. You did put in all three new ones, right?  You also didn't comment on the state of the dampers. As far as the rest of it is concerned, you would do well to have a local member with experience with this spend a couple of hours with you going through everything.

[Misfit]

You need to yank the drive shaft out of the final drive. I believe you will find your pinion cup toasted.

[HayHauler]

You need to yank the drive shaft out of the final drive. I believe you will find your pinion cup toasted.

+1. Pinion cup/drive shaft sounds like your problem. 
Hay
Jimmyt

[Daniel Meyer]

You need to yank the drive shaft out of the final drive. I believe you will find your pinion cup toasted.

+1. Pinion cup/drive shaft sounds like your problem. 
Hay
Jimmyt

Yep...this.

[saddlesore]

You need to yank the drive shaft out of the final drive. I believe you will find your pinion cup toasted.

+1. Pinion cup/drive shaft sounds like your problem. 
Hay
Jimmyt

Yep...this.

I agree on this too.  I had the sort of grinding sound.  The drive shaft was shoved all the way into the u-joint.  The splines on the pumpkin side were barely touching. (just enough to make noise).
Try to pull  the shaft out of the u-joint, you may find some answers there. 

[john]

     " 98 Tourer, 34k miles.  I'm probably the third owner. "      ???                                     134,000 ?         

[F6Dave]

If you have it apart, a picture or two would help us diagnose it.  Thought I agree it sounds like the shaft/pinion cup connection.  When the drive splines fail it is pretty obvious.

[R J]

While you are in there, check the wheel bearings also.

BUT, I'd lay $$$ it is the pinion cup/drive shaft.

[Jabba]

While you are in there, check the wheel bearings also.

BUT, I'd lay $$$ it is the pinion cup/drive shaft.

That's where my money is too.

Let's see... Me, RJ, Misfit, HayHauler, and Daniel Meyer.  That's what?  About a MILLION Valk miles?  (Not that I contribute all that many with barely 60K of them over the last 10 years   )

Make sure to check that pinion cup / drive shaft joint.  I'll buy dinner AND beer if it ain't that.

Where do you live Hoppy?

Jabba

[old2soon]

I'm with the general consensus on this one.  He needs to go through the whole inspection process while he has it torn down.  And follow the proper torqueing SEQUENCE upon reassembly. All of the old heads here that do their own service are aware of the issues that can screw up this fine machine. Hoppy-as yer most likely already aware of ya come to the right place for questions bout the Fat Lady.  RIDE SAFE.

[saddlesore]

I reread the original post and found this...  "Today, I took everything apart from the transmission case back, and started looking at it, expecting to find some sort of disaster.  Oddly enough, most of it looks good."
By that I would think Hoppy checked the u- joint and splines on that end of the drive shaft.
Have we been leading him in the wrong direction?   

[Jabba]

By that I would think Hoppy checked the u- joint and splines on that end of the drive shaft.
Have we been leading him in the wrong direction?   

It depends if he knew to take the driveshaft out of the pinion cup.  Many don't know about that.  i didn't until about a year and a half ago... 

I he did... then he he knows enough to know that those of us that THINK it's the pinion cup / Driveshaft joint are full of crap.   

I am OK with that... I am wrong EVERYDAY about stuff.  I just keep trying.

What he describes... sure SOUNDS like a failed pinion joint though.

Jabba

[hoppy]

Ok, so sorry that I didn't put pics up with this - kinda ran out of time Sunday.

I drug all of this into the office today to take pics, but after setting up the poses, yeah, the junction between the pinion cup and the driveshaft is all shreddy.  Didn't notice that on the garage floor, but on my desk is florescent lighting, pretty obvious.

Just for fun, I put it together, and can make it slip by hand.  Duh.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2hslsKnF81IQUdaN1pLLTlmTVk/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2hslsKnF81IeDlDRkYwWG1XSms/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2hslsKnF81IdUw4dUNuZ1FaaFU/edit?usp=sharing

So yeah, you guys nailed it, even without the pictures.

In retrospect, I should have figured that out on my own, but I guess I was bleary-eyed tearing this thing apart in the 95 degree heat.

Answers to other questions:
 - I'm in west houston (katy) texas
 - no the bike has 34K, not 134K.  It spent too much time in the garage in the hands of previous.  It had 14.5K on it 15 months ago when I bought it.

New questions:
- what's the prescription for fixing this mess?

Hoppy

[Squealy]

New questions:
- what's the prescription for fixing this mess?

new drive shaft and pinion cup...  search the board for the various theories on what the right way to install it back.....

[Daniel Meyer]

New questions:
- what's the prescription for fixing this mess?

Hoppy

At http://www.hdlparts.com/

JOINT, PINION
41410-MN5-000   $35.44

SHAFT, PROPELLER
40201-MZ0-A00   $48.49

OIL SEAL (27X43X7)
91261-ME9-005   $7.41

Should be able to reuse the spring and clip.

Might want a new boot...much easier to install than used one:
BOOT, JOINT
52104-MZ0-A40   $13.31

Lube with light grease (Honda calls for moly grease), put her all together, then clean and inspect every tire change and it'll go 100,000 miles.

[hoppy]

Now that, is service far and beyond the call.  I just wanted to make sure that there weren't any obvious things I needed to worry about, but a battery of part numbers?  I so appreciate that extra mile you went, sir.

Thanks - to all - ordering stuff now.

Hoppy

New questions:
- what's the prescription for fixing this mess?

Hoppy

At http://www.hdlparts.com/

JOINT, PINION
41410-MN5-000   $35.44

SHAFT, PROPELLER
40201-MZ0-A00   $48.49

OIL SEAL (27X43X7)
91261-ME9-005   $7.41

Should be able to reuse the spring and clip.

Might want a new boot...much easier to install than used one:
BOOT, JOINT
52104-MZ0-A40   $13.31

Lube with light grease (Honda calls for moly grease), put her all together, then clean and inspect every tire change and it'll go 100,000 miles.

[Jabba]

Hoppy... that's how we roll man. 

I keep a drive shaft and pinion cup in the drawer.  I rescued a club member a couple years ago on a Friday, and couldn't get parts till TUESDAY.  SUCK!!!

Luckily another awesome VRCCer was rolling thru town with a trailer full of parts, and he detoured into Indy and dropped off parts for us so we could get him rolling again.  That's just how we do things man...

I'll look to meet you at GOTF next year.

Jabba

[salty1]

Hoppy as you can see from the terrific responses, you came to the right place. Great thread! AND welcome to the asylum. Sort of gets in your blood doesn't it? 

[hoppy]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2hslsKnF81IZ09laWczbzhiYWs/edit?usp=sharing

Just wanted to thank everybody that helped out with this.

As usual, a medium sized project turned into a bigger project including two tire changes, front brakes, oil change, rear-drive oil change, brake fluid change, and the nut-cage mod.

It's all back together, and running DarkSide.  So far so good.

Thanks again to everybody for all the for the help, and hope I can return the favor someday.

Hoppy

[poncho]

I feel your pain. I had a slight clunk in rear a week ago had to truck it home in the Uhaul of shame for trusting a dealer to do drive line maintenance which he charged $300.00 for. Now have new pinion cup, drive shaft, boot, U joint, swing arm bearings, Orings, Lots of fresh Moly grease. Oh yea new shock bushings to. Should be ready, I hope. Got all information for this repair right here at the VRCC. I should have known better, now I do

[HayHauler]

Hoppy, glad you got her back together.  Welcome to the asylum.... you're gonna like it here......no really.

Come on out and meet the group down at Sudies Catfish place on I-45 south at the 518 exit this Thursday evening.  We will meet there at 7:30 and have dinner and kick some tires.  We might even talk about the Texas ride in over in Fredricksburg this coming October 18, 19, and 20th.

Hope to meet you soon.

Ride Safe Brother.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

Yea what HayHauler said. Welcome to the club. We can fixit. Words of D Day on Animal house as he lights a cutting torch.