WILL NOT START :'(

[Mapper]

I've been riding my Valk everyday to work and play on the weekends with no problems.  I don't ever store my bike, I ride it daily.

This morning... rolled bike out, in neutral, kickstand down, kill switch switched, key turned.

I had the normal neutral indicator and hi-beam lights, hit the starter and it started to crank.

After half a second, everything died.  No lights, starter, blinker, horn.  NOTHING.  Still reading almost 13V on the battery. 

I read through some of the other threads and couldn't find the exact indications of the bike appearing good until startup failure.  Any thoughts??

[Daniel Meyer]

Bad connection on a battery cable (or the ground cable on the other end), possible main fuse, possible wiring harness on the top of the starter relay.

Seems most likely to be a bad connection on a battery cable...check for tightness and corrosion.

[Bocephus]

Starter Relay. Mine done the same thing last year. You can order off of Amazon.com for $10.50. Exact as OEM, just make sure to get the one with 30 amp fuse.

[Mapper]

I'll check the fuses... seems like it could fit the indications.  As far as the starter relay goes, would a bad starter relay cause the indication of no power anywhere?

Bocephus, did your issue happen on startup as well? 

Thanks guys!  Still at work for another hour, looking forward to getting the Valk back on the road.

[Thunderbolt]

No power anywhere could be any of the things Daniel mentioned. I would check the 30A fuse first because it is easy.  After that just go down the list.  You might find that there is some corrosion where the wiring harness plugs in next to the fuse.

[HayHauler]

Mine was a corroded positive cable on the battery itself. Pulled it off, cleaned it up, and started right up.  The high amp draw from the starter somehow breaks the connection when corrosion is involved. 

Hope the cable is all that it is on yours. 

Hay
Jimmyt

[Mapper]

UPDATE:  checked all main fuses (30A, 55A, 5 10A, 1 5A) on my 97 Tourer... all good.

12.9V on top of starter relay switch... until turning the key, then dropped to ZERO.

Still troubleshooting....

[Thunderbolt]

Try jumping with non running car/truck.  Could be the battery.  Or it is a loose connection that you have not found to this point.

[Mapper]

No luck with the car battery... got a flicker of one of the indicator lights.  Car battery was shorted to ZERO.  Best I can figure is that something is shorting the battery to ground when the key is turned, only when the key is turned.

[Michvalk]

CHECK YOUR BATTERY CONNECTIONS.....BOTH ENDS

[Mapper]

CHECK YOUR BATTERY CONNECTIONS.....BOTH ENDS

When I used the car battery, I had it connected directly to the bike without the motorcycle battery.  By both ends, you mean +/-, right?  I had the motorcycle battery completely removed on the last try and was going completely off the car battery.

[mike4sho]

Yikes Carter!  That sucks.  Hope you get it fixed soon.  You can always take the battery to get it load tested.  I've heard batteries will read okay but can't take a load.  Did you need to borrow my valkyrie to get you to and from school?

[Rio Wil]

Something really odd here.....first check your volt meter and make sure it is set on dc volts and at an appropriate scale to measure 12 volts...(i know you said it was 12.9....check anyway).  The 12 volts on the starter relay (big black wire on right hand term) comes directly from the positive term of the battery (Maybe 12 inches of cable).  The ground cable connects from the battery directly to the back of the engine engine block  (maybe 14 inches of big black cable.  The reason or stating the obvious is if you can pull a known good battery down to o volts when turning the key on, it will most assuredly result on smoke somewhere in these two wires and/or in the 30A red wire on the top connection on the start relay connector.  To pull the battery down to zero, ya gotta be pulling 400-500 amps which means if that is going through a shorted connection on the bike it would result in dissipating some ----i don't know maybe 6000 watts in a single point spot......its called arc welding.    

Try establishing a base line, put the m/c battery back in, measure the battery voltage----take a quarter and (in neutral and clutch lever pulled in) short the two big black wires on the starter relay(ignition switch off)......does the starter run normally?  Try again (with the quarter) with the ignition switch in the on position .....does the starter run normally.

Not expecting the bike to start.....just figuring out where the volts are hiding.....

[Mapper]

Mike, you are awesome!  There's been a lot of help on the forum here and also talking with Matt (fordmano).  I'll bet I find a solution in the next day or two and hope that I won't have to take you up on your generous offer.

Seems like the car battery would have taken the load, my wife had just driven up a couple minutes prior.  I will get the motorcycle battery tested just in case I did something wrong when trying the car battery.

Hope to be up and running by the weekend!

[Rio Wil]

Something really odd here.....first check your volt meter and make sure it is set on dc volts and at an appropriate scale to measure 12 volts...(i know you said it was 12.9....check anyway).  The 12 volts on the starter relay (big black wire on right hand term) comes directly from the positive term of the battery (Maybe 12 inches of cable).  The ground cable connects from the battery directly to the back of the engine engine block  (maybe 14 inches of big black cable.  The reason or stating the obvious is if you can pull a known good battery down to o volts when turning the key on, it will most assuredly result on smoke somewhere in these two wires and/or in the 30A red wire on the top connection on the start relay connector.  To pull the battery down to zero, ya gotta be pulling 400-500 amps which means if that is going through a shorted connection on the bike it would result in dissipating some ----i don't know maybe 6000 watts in a single point spot......its called arc welding.    

Try establishing a base line, put the m/c battery back in, measure the battery voltage----take a quarter and (in neutral and clutch lever pulled in) short the two big black wires on the starter relay(ignition switch off)......does the starter run normally?  Try again (with the quarter) with the ignition switch in the on position .....does the starter run normally.

Not expecting the bike to start.....just figuring out where the volts are hiding.....

bump

[Mapper]

Something really odd here.....first check your volt meter and make sure it is set on dc volts and at an appropriate scale to measure 12 volts...(i know you said it was 12.9....check anyway).  The 12 volts on the starter relay (big black wire on right hand term) comes directly from the positive term of the battery (Maybe 12 inches of cable).  The ground cable connects from the battery directly to the back of the engine engine block  (maybe 14 inches of big black cable.  The reason or stating the obvious is if you can pull a known good battery down to o volts when turning the key on, it will most assuredly result on smoke somewhere in these two wires and/or in the 30A red wire on the top connection on the start relay connector.  To pull the battery down to zero, ya gotta be pulling 400-500 amps which means if that is going through a shorted connection on the bike it would result in dissipating some ----i don't know maybe 6000 watts in a single point spot......its called arc welding.    

Try establishing a base line, put the m/c battery back in, measure the battery voltage----take a quarter and (in neutral and clutch lever pulled in) short the two big black wires on the starter relay(ignition switch off)......does the starter run normally?  Try again (with the quarter) with the ignition switch in the on position .....does the starter run normally.

Not expecting the bile to start.....just figuring out where the volts are hiding.....

There was no smoke... not sure why multimeter read 12.9 VDC then 0 on two other batteries.  What could ground the positive side and not arc... don't know.  Haven't worked on electronics/electrical for over 10 years now.  It is valid that you reminded me to check the meter.  I had already done this a couple times, as I was surprised even more when working off the known good car battery.  

I'm going to have to try the quarter thing tomorrow... I've got to turn in for the night.  At this point, that's the best thing I've got to try.  That and having the motorcycle battery checked for good measure (seems like the car battery would have worked though).

[mike4sho]

Maybe check the wiring for your 12v socket.  Those crackheads at bills could have done a crappy job and screwed something up.  Forgot to tell you, if you need a tow let me know I get free towing.  I'd be happy to "own" your bike for the duration of the tow. 

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

If you haven"t checked it yet remove and clean the ground cable where it hooks to the block down by the alt.. Copper cable hook to an alum. block can build up a white chalky corrision. Hope you get her fixed soon.

[gordonv]

No one yet has mentioned that your starter switch might be the problem.

Which style bike do you have, std/Tourer? You said it cranked, then all went dead. If all fuses work, and you checked out the starter relay and it's associated connections, I would look at the switch.

Has power come back to the rest of the bike? Does the start switch move, both in and out?

I would try to push start the bike. Ensure that it is on Run, and find a nice hill and roll it down, and try to start it in second gear.

[Hoser]

If you haven"t checked it yet remove and clean the ground cable where it hooks to the block down by the alt.. Copper cable hook to an alum. block can build up a white chalky corrision. Hope you get her fixed soon.

I'll go with mr bubbles on this one, haven't read that you've done that.  Hoser

[Mapper]

No one yet has mentioned that your starter switch might be the problem.

Which style bike do you have, std/Tourer? You said it cranked, then all went dead. If all fuses work, and you checked out the starter relay and it's associated connections, I would look at the switch.

Has power come back to the rest of the bike? Does the start switch move, both in and out?

I would try to push start the bike. Ensure that it is on Run, and find a nice hill and roll it down, and try to start it in second gear.

It's a '97 Tourer.

Didn't notice any corrosion, but will take a closer look and give it a nice cleaning.  Starter switch moves fine.  Between what you are saying, Rio Wil, and Mr. Bubbles, looks like I've got a couple things to try later when I get home...  Thanks again guys!

[BobB]

Diagnosing Starter Electrical Issues 101.

There are two circuits in play here and they can be analyzed separately to eliminate possible sources of the problem.  The first is the circuit that triggers the starter relay and the second is the circuit that the contacts in starter relay triggers that energizes the starter motor.   

Two things to do:

1.  Check your fuses again, sometimes we blow them while diagnosing problems.
Turn on the ignition, place a finger on the starter relay and press the starter button.
If you feel nothing, the coil of the starter relay is not being energized.  The starter switch or the starter relay or the connector at the top of the starter relay is at fault.
If you feel the relay kick in the issue is elsewhere.  Go to step two.

2.  Turn on the ignition and use a screw driver to jumper the two main posts of the starter relay.
The bike should start.  If is does not, you have a battery or battery connection or grounding issue.  If it does start, replace your starter relay.

I have had my connector at the top of the starter relay completely fried, and have been able to start the bike.  Hope this helps.

[R J]

I used to have those little gremlins happen to me every once in awhile.

I finally took the grd cable off the block, cleaned it till my fingers were sore. Then I added another cable to the block connection and run it to the frame.

Them little gremlins have not been back.

[Mapper]

UPDATE:  Valkyrie is running with no further known issues.

RIO WILL:  I still can't figure out why my car battery dropped to ZERO... however I DO know why the motorcycle battery dropped to ZERO without frying or smoking anything... ready for it?  No Amps!  Damn I feel a little dumb... "little" being an understatement.

Turns out, all it needed was a new battery.

To recap, Initial conditions: fully functional bike, lights, etc.  On startup (cranking), I got half a crank and EVERYTHING went dead.  No indicators, lights, nothing.  Battery read 12.9V until key turned, then dropped to ZERO.  Hooked car battery directly to motorcycle with other battery out of the loop, car battery also dropped to zero when key was turned (still haven't figured that one out, anyone??).

SOLUTION: replace battery 
Further possible actions (if battery was good): check starter relay and starter

Lessons learned:
1.  A dead battery can happen with apparent suddenness
2.  A dead battery can read good voltage
3.  Can't rely on using a car battery in troubleshooting, for whatever reason
4.  VRCC members are consistently, earnestly helpful

The circumstances seemed a little strange, so I thought a short writeup might be helpful, interesting, or even entertaining to some.  Although my troubleshooting did not go beyond the battery, I definitely learned some stuff.  THANK YOU everyone who provided help and insight!

Time to get my fat lady's clothes back on and on the road.  Only 2 days and I sure missed my VALK!

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

I drove mine into the garage one day. Two hours later the bike would not even turn over. Battery toast.

[mike4sho]

Great news Carter sometimes it's the simple things.  Seen it happen before on the vtx forum.  Time to ride that sucker like crazy!

[Rio Wil]

Whooooo-Doggieeeeee!, thanks for the update....ride safe.

The only thing I can think of with the jumper cables and car battery is maybe one of the cable connections was not making good contact??

[Mapper]

The only thing I can think of with the jumper cables and car battery is maybe one of the cable connections was not making good contact??

I checked all connections...  had completely disconnected and tried again to verify.  Same thing.  If no one has a different reasonable explanation, then not making good contact will have to do.  At this point, I'm not willing to try to duplicate the problem again, but would be nice to know.

[BobB]

Glad your back on the road.  Ride safe!   

[MarkT]

I used to have those little gremlins happen to me every once in awhile.

I finally took the grd cable off the block, cleaned it till my fingers were sore. Then I added another cable to the block connection and run it to the frame.

Them little gremlins have not been back.

What RJ said.  Sooner or later you're likely to have a similar problem caused by the main battery ground going to the aluminum engine block.  This one put me on the side of the road on a road trip years ago.  I moved the wire to the left footpeg mount on the road.  It's still there.  After I got home I added a ground strap between the engine and frame.  I had had problems before this breakdown, and had merely cleaned the connection.  Moving the ground to steel fixed it permanently.

[Mapper]

Moving the ground to steel fixed it permanently.

Did you also leave the ground to the aluminum?

[fordmano]

Sorry Mapper, I didn't get back to you before this.
Working this dayshift crap has me messed up so bad. Even worse than my night shift

Glad you found,,,, well fixed the primary problem.

[Mapper]

Even worse than my night shift

Fordmano, rotating shifts sure wear on you - I don't envy that!  As far as the issues... I think that was it.  Bike was running nice and strong today.

[fordmano]

Good to hear it worked out.

Today was my last dayshift so maybe we can plan a ride now that I have Sundays off again and your bike is back on the road!