colorado pilot screw setting

[franco6]

the manual shows a special tool to reset the screws for altitude riding. i must be blind or dumb or both cause i dont see pilot screws. can the valk make it to frisco without much trouble and someone there show me? i haven t seen the subject covered here
thanks.

[Dennis Klinefelt]

I've been out west many times on my 98 Tourer...and never adjusted the pilots for high altitude...you should be fine..have a great trip..

[R J]

the manual shows a special tool to reset the screws for altitude riding. i must be blind or dumb or both cause i dont see pilot screws. can the valk make it to frisco without much trouble and someone there show me? i haven t seen the subject covered here
thanks.

Quit worrying about it..............    I've had my 97 Tourer through there about 7 or 8 times no problem.

In the mountains on a good upgrade, sometimes I dropped back a gear with the trailer on, no trailer I just run in 5th.  It might feel a little sluggish, but you are not hurting a thing.

[Kingbee]

Just for your future reference, the pilot screws are underneath the carbs, just behind the intakes

[Robert]

Kingbee nice shot of the pilot screw really clear Theres only one problem the carbs look a little dirty

[franco6]

KINGBEE i was afraid of that !reminds me of the specialk screw driver i had to rig up to adjust the four cabs on the old C-Bs ! always burnt my fingers. so this time you do need a special tool! of course.the valk manual shows a totaly differnt aproach (2 hands olding a screw driver horizontal to the carbs)
glad to hear its no problem . thanks

[Kingbee]

Here's the tool Honda suggests using



But you can also do this while burning your fingers




Robert - Those were some carbs I got off ebay, mine don't look like that.....

[Robert]

I have the Motion Pro tool is it great no but it does the job and is similar in construction. I would not put my hand in to adjust those carbs on a fully warmed up engine. 

[FLATSIX]

I thought you only have to turn all of them 6 completely IN , and then turn all 6 OUT by 2.1/2 turn, and that is it??? OR AM I WRONG HERE ?


I have a European STANDARD red/white '97 - cut piggies , K&N WITH pre-filter - for the rest stock.

So the engine may be cold for this turning in and out - or do you apply the method as described in the shop manuel that is called : "THE IDLE DROP PROCEDURE"

I still want to do mine, but I don't dare so good - I have no rpm-counter for the 50 rpm-drops that you have to apply.

How should I proceed to do a good job for my motor as concerned the pilot screw settings ???

[Kingbee]

The idle-drop method is mainly for emissions, & a little for MPG, but not for best running.

Best throttle response is obtained by starting at 1 turn out, & then adjusting for max RPM on each carb & leaving them there, on a hot engine.

The little palm adjuster picture above, is good for the initial setting on a cold engine, & to help break loose any screws that are frozen, so as not to damage the fragile tip on the Honda tool.

[FLATSIX]

How do you do this adjusting then in practice ?

First make a ride to obtain operating temperature of the motor.

Then engine off and turn all 6 screws 100% IN (not damage the seat - so easy on with the screwing)

Then turn all 6  1 turn out - then start the engine (will she start ?? with only 1 turn out)

Take 1 screw and turn this out till motor-rpm just starts to go higher= that carb pilot setting is O.K.

RPM to set again at 900 rpm

START OVER THIS PROCEDURE TILL ALL 6 DONE.

Is it exactly like this, Kingbee, or do you do it otherwhise, I have never touched at the pilots, but my hands are tingling already a long time, and I will do it shortly, but must have the detailled procedure as I don't want to mess things up.

Thanks 

[Ricky-D]

I think synchronicity has to be considered here.  A cylinder that is loafing due to poor synchronization will not respond to adjustments to the air bleed screw in a proper manner, if at all.

Ideally, the proper way to do the adjustment should include at the same time, synchronization of the carburetors.

***

[Kingbee]

Flatsix - Yes, except adjust pilot screw for max RPM

Ricky-D  He took great pains to synch with the home made synch tool.  Also, on our bikes, the pilot screws are not air bleed screws, they are fuel metering screws, and basically limit the maximum amount of fuel allowed through the pilot jets.

[FLATSIX]

Hallo,

I think I have actually the best syncronised machine - if you have read my former posts about the home-made MEANMACHINE with the 6 tubes filled with ATF, then you should know that I have spent quite a lot of time into the syncronisation of my Lady.

Then I pulled out that "piece of foam" and ordered a new airboxcover with new foam in it , there I went again for synchronisation. Then my daughter found that the WAUW,WAUW was less then before: there I went again for a synchroonisation.

Now I do the syncro at idle + last thing before shutting down engine is that they are all 6 together at 3000 rpm cruising speed. and I found out that it is better not to continue when fan came in, but wait 10 - 15 minutes to cool down the iron, because after the fan comes in settings change again and then I am adjusting when all is hot hot, when I drive there is air and only hot.

So the bike runs well - syncro is 98% of what is possible and I think that when the pilot screws are also very close + again the syncro, that the Lady will even perform better - and that is what I am searching for : the best possible performance.

[FLATSIX]

O.K.  Kingbee, thanks a lot for your info.

I will shortly do this adjusting of the pilots according to your directions.  I let you hear if impovement or not.

Thanks,

 

[Ricky-D]

Flatsix - Yes, except adjust pilot screw for max RPM

Ricky-D  He took great pains to synch with the home made synch tool.  Also, on our bikes, the pilot screws are not air bleed screws, they are fuel metering screws, and basically limit the maximum amount of fuel allowed through the pilot jets.

I disagree with this statement although I can't find any definitive literature to bolster my disagreement.

Good common sense would tell me, if what you say were true, then why even have a pilot jet. Carburetors that have a idle circuit gas metering adjustment have no idle jets.  Having both is redundant and not necessary.

So, why do you say what you say? 

I am always looking to be enlightened and learn, so show me the proof of what you say.

Where is the sense in changing pilot jets when they are not the final arbiter.

Yes, I think you are wrong.  But, I will keep an open mind.

***

[FLATSIX]

I am a "newbe" - not a mechanical - don't know much about motors , carbs , etc. but I have since 12 years a FAT LADY and I love her!

During manu years I read all the posts in this beautifull technical board with many interest - I try to remember the for me most important subjects and I learn and learn and learn.

I ha

[Kingbee]

Ricky-D:   Screwing in the pilots makes the mixture leaner, screwing out makes it richer.  An air bleed screw does just the opposite.

It's not redundant, as the jets limit the maximum amount of fuel, and the screws fine-tune the final adjustment, to usually less fuel flow than the jets, if not thus limited, would allow.
If you can find a cut-away drawing of the pilot circuit, you'll see fuel flows past the pilot screw first, on it's way to the pilot jet.

Cheers!

[FLATSIX]

Sorry, I WAS A LITTLE TOO ENTHOUSIATIC - I HIT A WRONG BUTTON ON MY LAPTOP .............

START OVER AGAIN:  and he wrote : ..............................

I am a "newbee" - not a mechanical - don't know much about motors , carbs , etc. but I have bought 12 years ago a FAT LADY and I still love her, a great part thanks to this beautiful technical board filled with enthousiastics and specialists!

During many years I read all the posts in this beautifull technical board with many interest - I try to remember the (for me most important ) subjects and I learn and learn and learn........

I have now a bike filled with chrome - airhorn - electrical switches - etc. that I AND ONLY MYSELF have placed tehm on my Lady - I now am able to change oil, oilfilter - airfilter - clutch oil - brake oil - brakes - take off my front and rear wheels - take off tank , chrome - V-stacks - replace springs into I/S springs etc;

WHERE WILL THIS END !!!!  and all this thanks to my readings off all tecvhnical problems and the answers of members who speak honestly about their experiences to help people like me to become specialist !!

Now shortly I finally made a carbsync-tool , because I believed in this , and I must say that it was a success because bike responds much better then during the 12 years that I own her (including the few times that I payd the Hondadealer to syncronise my carbs, I did not feel the difference, now I do!!!)

My next step is to eliminate the doubts that I have on the fueldelivery at idle - since 12 years at cold start I hear my baby stumbling and misfiring at the left exhaust - went to my beloved Hondadealer many times , his reaction :  I don't know, bring Baby inn for a couple of days,  we'll see ...... nothing is perfect!!

In the meantime my beautiful bling-bling will become scratchbling - because or his big white dog, himself, his mechanical or wife or customers etc. will step and stumble over my precious ones and make my Baby the scratchbike of the year. The invoice to make her like that will have 4 numbers and the result of the misfiring will be : NOTHING IS PERFECT!  (I saw this scenario with a beautifull Goldwing  I am not hallucinating !!


Now that I felt victory with synchronising - I and my daughter felt the difference on reaction and pullin of my bike, now I feel the time has come to get rid of the PILOT SCREW ADJUDSTMENT mistery !!!!!!

I have 2 possibilities :  

1) I do exactly what Kingbee and other technical people say and the result is NONE - NO DIFFERENCE for me - she pulls like before , nada, njep , no , nonon, -= BIG SUCCESS FOR FLATSIX !! (that's me.. ) because finally after 12 years I know that the misfiring has nothing to do with the pilots + learned to adjust pilots on a complicated 6-cylinder with 6 carbs !!!

2) I do as Kingbee and specialists say : result : pulls better , idle better , mileage better , no more misfirings because one or more of the carbs were out off adjustment - factory setting was not good. - BIG SUCCESS FOR FLATSIX again.

CONCLUSION :  the raison to do the adjustment of pilots is because I have some imperfecties on my Valk, and thanks to this technical board I feel ready for it and I know how to do it !!!

The pilotscrew influences the amount of fueldelivery till +/- 2000 rpm - it takes care of a good idle when all 6 eaters are well fed - it is a necessary item to give a FLATSIX-engine smoothness, a feel of power , so important enough to try to set all 6 pilots as they should!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After my adjustments I will post my results in the + or in the - : as a lesson for the newbee's that are non-mechanicals, but future specialists thanks to this board !!!!

[Ricky-D]

Ricky-D:   Screwing in the pilots makes the mixture leaner, screwing out makes it richer.  An air bleed screw does just the opposite.

It's not redundant, as the jets limit the maximum amount of fuel, and the screws fine-tune the final adjustment, to usually less fuel flow than the jets, if not thus limited, would allow.
If you can find a cut-away drawing of the pilot circuit, you'll see fuel flows past the pilot screw first, on it's way to the pilot jet.

Cheers!

Ok, Kingbee, seems like you could show the cutaway drawing that you refer to. 

And will you explain then, why, when changing to 38 jets the pilot screw is turned out less.  This fact actually bolsters my premise that the pilot screw is an air bleed screw.

Based or you premise: If changing to a 38 jet to get more gas and the pilot screw is the arbiter of how much gas the pilot jet sees, one would necessarily have to turn the pilot screw out more, not less, to get more gas.  The 38 jet allowing more gas to flow through.

I'm still not convinced and your argument doesn't make any sense.

***

[Kingbee]

I'm not a fan of 38 pilots.  I put them in one of my Valks, did the pilot screws, and ended up with the same settings, with no detectable change in performance.  The only advantage I see to the 38 pilots, is maybe less chance of clogging to a point where chemicals won't clean them up.

If one wants to try cleaning the jets without removing the carbs, pull the pilot screws, blow carb cleaner in there & let set a bit. Then use compressed air in the pilot screw hole.
(you also drain the carb & keep the drain open for this)  The compressed air blows both back into the bowl, and through the pilot jet.  That would not happen with an air bleed screw.

Anyone want to back me up on the pilot screws?

[BlueValk]

Sorry, I can't resist ....   
There are several reasons why it is pretty clear that the pilot screws adjust the amount of fuel, not air (on our Valks).  There is probably no way to convince someone who just wants to believe what he believes.  But, for the open minded, maybe this is the clincher:

High Altitude adjustment instructions say to turn the pilot screws in 1/2 turn.  This is to lean the idle mixture to account for the thinner air. 

Concerning the 38's: I don't know if the fuel flow from the pilot screws and the slow jets are in series or in parallel, but I would suggest in parallel.  Turning the pilot screws in when installing 38 slow jets is because less fuel is needed at an idle (more is coming from the 38's).

Just another .02

[Ricky-D]

Well "Bluevalk" you are correct about the high altitude instructions but you fail to say that the book says this is just a place to start the adjustment from, not a final setting.

The same instructions say to turn the pilot screw out an additional amount in the same way for California settings. That would make the bike run more rich according to your logic.  Seems to me California wouldn't like that since they have more stringent emission rules.

By using your same reasoning about the book, turning the screw out would lean the mixture to meet California standards and give credibility to my premise.

I don't think any legitimate conclusions can be drawn from that bit of information in the book.   

It's evident that you can't resist!

[Ricky-D]

Kingbee, you're probably a fair person given to do the right thing.

I've a suggestion for you.

You have a whole set of extra carburetors.

Why not do a tear down of one carburetor and trace all the cast holes and drilled holes and determine exactly what feeds what and where.

I don't think it would be too difficult to do.

If you want, you could send me a carburetor and I could look too. I would not hurt the carburetor and I will definitely return it to you.

You decide.

[BlueValk]

"Ricky",  
I don't know what manual you are using, but my Honda manual says nothing about this being a place to start.  It is a simple "one-liner" - "HIGH ALTITUDE SETTING: 1/2 turn in".  It does have a note after stating "this adjustment must be made at high altitude to ensure proper high altitude operation".  Clearly it is leaning the mixture.

As if this even is needed.  I have the gunson colortune kit for adjusting the idle mixture of carbs.  I have used it several times, and turning the pilot screw in is definitely leaner and out is richer.

As I mentioned, some people will believe what they want.  Your insistence that it is an air adjustment will only screw with you in the future.  So be it.  I was supporting Kingbee - he is correct.

[Kingbee]

Ricky-D     I sold the carb set, but while cleaning them, and blowing carb cleaner through the pilot screw hole, it came out in the bowl AND the pilot jet.

That's it, I'm done with this thread.  It is what it is............

[stude31]

Ricky-D, BlueValk, and Kingbee....      Cheers to all three...

I respect all three of your comments and it was great reading and helps those that may not have known so much about the carbs and how they work.  I want to thank all of you for being cordual to each other.  I can read the frustration at times but I truely believe it was all in good favor.  Thanks for the discussion...  

I am leaning towards fuel and not air adjustment...  

Peace to all...  and safe riding!!!  

[Madmike]

http://www.factorypro.com/tech/carbtun.html

[Kingbee]

But here are some instructions from Factory Pro for tuning our type of carbs.  BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!

4. Idle and low rpm cruise
Fuel Screw setting (AKA "mixture screws")
 Newer Honda carbs have no caps, but use a special "D" shaped driver, usually supplied in the carb recal kit. We do have them available separately, too. 800 869-0497 to order -
Set for smoothest idle and 2nd gear, 2000 rpm, steady state cruise operation. Set mixture screws at recommended settings, as a starting point. For smoothest idle, 2nd gear, 2000 rpm steady state cruise , and 1/8 throttle high rpm operation.  (pj tuning information) 
Pilot fuel mixture screw settings, float level (but, you've "fixed" the fuel level in Step 3 - which you have already done!) AND pilot jet size are the primary sources of mixture delivery during 2000 rpm steady state cruise operation.
If lean surging is encountered, richen mixture screws (turn out) in 1/2 turn increments. Alternative pilot jets are supplied when normally required.
Pilot fuel mixture screw settings, float level and pilot jet size also affect high-rpm, 0 to 1/8 throttle maneuvers. Too lean, will cause surging problems when the engine is operated at high rpm at small throttle openings! Opening the mixture screws and/or increasing pilot jet size will usually cure the problem.
 
If the throttle is lightly "blipped" at idle, and the rpm drops below the set idle speed, then rises up to the set idle speed, the low speed mixture screws are probably set too rich: try 1/2 turn in, to lean the idle mixture.
NOTE: A lean problem gets better as the engine heats up.
If the throttle is lightly "blipped" at idle, and the rpm "hangs up" before dropping to the set idle speed, and there are no intake leaks and the idle speed is set at less than 1000 rpm, the mixture screws are probably too lean: try 1/2 turn out, to richen mixture. Be sure there are no intake leaks and the idle speed is set at less than 1000 rpm!