Hydrolock common? Poll

[Hoser]

let's get to the bottom of this!  Poll

[CoachDoc]

I've got over 45 years of experience with mainly Hondas and never heard hydro lock discussed so much until I bought my Valkyrie. Could be that this magnificent machine is particularly prone. I myself have the original petcock, but I've maintained my habit from my old CB550 of manually turning off the petcock when stopped. I realize that this can still leak if the ball is not just so, but I "feel" for the click and hope for the best. I have a new OEM petcock ready to install, so I guess you guys have scared me in an educated sort of way.

[98pacecar]

CBX's were also....   

Of the 5, I've owned

I had bought 2 for parts only, with bent rods, n' other hydro caused issues...   

[indybobm]

Hydrolock has to have at least two things happen before it can occur. A leaky petcock and a carb float valve not shutting off the fuel.

You have to remember that the Valk has 6 carb float valves. That makes it more likely to happen.
A GL1500 GW only has two carbs.

[wizard -vrccds#125]

I had hydrolock  and the petcock did NOT have anything to do with it. There is enough fuel in the line and rail to do it. Filling up on a hot day and letting it sit for 10 or 15  min.  with a hot motor and stuck float will do it.

[Patrick]

I don't know how many times over the years I've said this, but, I'll say it again. The petcock does not have to leak to cause a fuel lock. And thats the truth, pppfffttthh.

[1500Rider]

Hydrolock has to have at least two things happen before it can occur. A leaky petcock and a carb float valve not shutting off the fuel.

You have to remember that the Valk has 6 carb float valves. That makes it more likely to happen.
A GL1500 GW only has two carbs.

You've also got to keep in mind that the Goldwing fuel tank is located below the carbs and uses a fuel pump unlike the gravity fed system in the Valk. No way to get fuel hydrolock on a 'Wing with the ignition off.

[tank_post142]

the float bowls are below the fuel nozzles that feed the cylinders therefore they must have a fuel supply that will overflow the bowls and at least partially fill a cylinder. i don't believe the fuel stored in the fuel lines would be enough to cause hydro-lock. two options exist, either the petcock fails and allows fuel to override or take advantage of a problem in the float system, or, the petcock diaphragm can fail and allow fuel to pass down the vacuum line and into #6 cylinder.

[Michvalk]

My 99 only had 8600 miles in 06 when I bought it. Rode it home 120 miles, then to work the next day. When I came out of work to go home, the bike fuel locked. Pulled the plugs in the parking lot, and spun it over with the starter. Re-installed the plugs, and she fired right up. Used Seafoam and drained the bowls several times, and never had a problem again. Sitting is the worse thing in the world for these bikes, and they need to be driven often. (And with much enthusiasm)

[Chiefy]

Your poll doesn't factor in how many here may have altered their fuel system so as to avoid hydrolock.  Bottom line, we see way too many folks who have HL'ed here.  It's clearly an issue.

[Hoser]

I had hydrolock  and the petcock did NOT have anything to do with it. There is enough fuel in the line and rail to do it. Filling up on a hot day and letting it sit for 10 or 15  min.  with a hot motor and stuck float will do it.

A cure for that is to shut of the fuel valve a mile or so before parking for anylength of time.  I try real hard to remember that.  hoser 

[salty1]

Your poll doesn't factor in how many here may have altered their fuel system so as to avoid hydrolock.  Bottom line, we see way too many folks who have HL'ed here.  It's clearly an issue.

   I've never experienced a hydrolock issue, however I have taken the precautions of replacing the OEM petcock with a new one and installing a Dan Marc fuel shutoff valve.

[BradValk48237]

I just put a rant on the post that started this.....

YES it could happen, but not as often as every body thinks....

Just being on the board for a few years, this subject comes up maybe once a month and myself and MANY others, some who have multiple Valks have not had this problem. You are more likely to get rear ended because of the wimpy lights on the back of it. ( Whups, forgot to put that common problem in the rant)

This is something to be aware of, but with proper care and maint. more than likely most of us will never have it happen.

Brad

[Patrick]

Hehehehe, how many times can I vote ?  I've had 5 or 6 locks, how many does account for ?

[98valk]

the only times I've had anything to where the engine didn't want to turn over and almost wanted to reverse its rotation was when I used the choke.

how many were using the choke in some way and did the engine hydro at that time?

[Ricky-D]

There's a running argument over "is there enough gas left in the lines/galleries to allow hydrolock".

I personally do not think there is enough gas.

A test could be devised to ascertain exactly how much gas is available.

But no one has determined how much gas in the cylinder would be needed to create hydrolock.

Everything so far has been simply conjecture.

Not one person has done anything to actually further the conversation regarding this subject.

It's all been nothing but bullshit and guesstimates.

***

[Disco]

Hydrolock has to have at least two things happen before it can occur. A leaky petcock and a carb float valve not shutting off the fuel.

AND, the offending cylinder must be on the compression stroke. 

When hydrolock happens to you, it sucks at least a little and can suck really badly, but considering how many start events happen to us every year (or during the life of the bike), its occurrence is extraordinarily rare.  Plus, it's largely, if not entirely preventable. 

Do a search for hydrolock, hydrolock poll, petcock failure, etc to see how many times this has been discussed before.

[HayHauler]

Way too many times brother Disco.

Like Daniel says, ride her hard, fix her when she breaks.  Or, something like that.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[Thunnar]

There's a running argument over "is there enough gas left in the lines/galleries to allow hydrolock".

I personally do not think there is enough gas.

A test could be devised to ascertain exactly how much gas is available.

But no one has determined how much gas in the cylinder would be needed to create hydrolock.

Everything so far has been simply conjecture.

Not one person has done anything to actually further the conversation regarding this subject.

It's all been nothing but bullshit and guesstimates.

***

That sounds right.  Mostly anecdotal info based on people's experiences, rumors, fears, combined with the mechanical fact that it is possible and does happen occasionally.  So do flat tires and broken timing belts.  How much preventive maintenance do you need to make you feel better?  

I am the third owner of a 13 year old valkyrie that had all the OEM -- until I started reading this board.  Nearly every change I have made since I bought the bike 3 months ago was based upon the "concerns" and recommendations expressed by you guys. . . . Including a Pingle petcock w/ Dan-Marc electric valve.  Your hydro-lock controversy made me nervous enough to jump.  Hopefully, there won't be too many new monsters lurking in the mechanical closet on these magnificent machines.

[Patrick]

There's a running argument over "is there enough gas left in the lines/galleries to allow hydrolock".

I personally do not think there is enough gas.

A test could be devised to ascertain exactly how much gas is available.

But no one has determined how much gas in the cylinder would be needed to create hydrolock.

Everything so far has been simply conjecture.

Not one person has done anything to actually further the conversation regarding this subject.

It's all been nothing but bullshit and guesstimates.

***

Typical of you. You think folks are guessing and full of crap, well, do something about it. Conduct your own experiment, if you are able do it unbiased.

[mike72903]

Had it but was a honda 750 V twin. Torn diaphragm in the petcock filled the cylinders via the vacuum hose. Took me a while to figure out what was going on.

[Momz]

I have three Valks,.... a 97, a 98, and a 2K.
My 97 hydrolocked last spring and it had a Pingel petcock that was turned off.
At least the repair wasn't all that expensive.

[Chiefy]

I have three Valks,.... a 97, a 98, and a 2K.
My 97 hydrolocked last spring and it had a Pingel petcock that was turned off.
At least the repair wasn't all that expensive.

Do you think the Pingle leaked?  Or?

[F6Dave]

While I love the smooth F6 engine, with downdraft carbs sitting above the cylinders there is an increased chance of fuel filling a cylinder.  Of course certain things happen at the same time as was previously mentioned.

My old BMW airhead also has opposed cylinders, and the carbs leak all the time.  But since the carbs are a sidedraft type and they hang off the side of the cylinder, the leaking fuel just gets on my boots.  There used to be a saying about how you could recognize a BMW rider from the spots on his boots.

I don't lose any sleep worrying about hydrolock.  Every time I pull the tank (usually to change the air filter) I test the petcock.  If fuel flows in any of the three positions, I replace the cover set.  It's no big deal as I always keep a spare on hand, and it only takes a few minutes to to replace.  You don't even have to remove the petcock from the tank.

[Disco]

As I write this, 85.9% (85 out of 99) of respondents to this poll are in the "how many have not" category. 

Here's a previous Hydrolock Survey thread where 86.5% (134 out of 155) of respondents are in the "I've never had excess fuel in my cylinders as far as I know." category. 

If only we could compare the number of hydrolock events to the number of times the bikes are started...   

[F6Dave]

I look at it this way.  New Valkyries came with a 3 year, transferrable, unlimited miles warranty.  You could add 4 years to that warranty for $399 through HDL.  Both of my Valkyries had the full 7 years of coverage.  My '98 was still under warranty at 100,000 miles.

If hydrolock was all that common, Honda would have seen lots of very expensive warranty claims, and probably made a retro-fix of some kind, or at least had a service bulletin.  As far as I know they never did.

Obviously as the bikes age and parts wear hydrolock becomes more likely.  And if it happens to you the probability stats don't matter.  But good maintenance can make it a very remote possibility.

[Relax]

Hehehehe, how many times can I vote ?  I've had 5 or 6 locks, how many does account for ?

How come you  had it 5-6 times , when 90% doesnt have it at all?
I am curious about your condition why it happen so often?
If you had it so many times, do you know why?
Was it simular conditions every time it happen?

[Patrick]

Hehehehe, how many times can I vote ?  I've had 5 or 6 locks, how many does account for ?

How come you  had it 5-6 times , when 90% doesnt have it at all?
I am curious about your condition why it happen so often?
If you had it so many times, do you know why?
Was it simular conditions every time it happen?

As I mentioned, the first occurred with the original petcock when the bike was [ I'm guessing] 2 years old. That was even before I figured out the 'tap' start thing. I didn't continue hammering the button and just looked into what happened. I then converted it to manual, but, didn't like that at all and installed a Pingle ASAP. The bike ran for about another 10  years with no issue. I had the tank off and must have dislodged some 'crud' [ technical term] that got into #2 cylinder. Every start for awhile #2 was locked. Once I found that was consistent, I only removed that sparkler to clear the cylinder. Whenever at home I flushed the heck out of that fuel bowl. I was about to give up on that theory and pull the bowl, it must have known that and gave up and it hasn't happened since. I'm not sure what was causing the lock, I drained the fuel thru a paint strainer and didn't see anything bothersome. I think it was a chunk of varnish but may have been a very tiny piece of fuel line that was pulled off when the tank was removed/installed. Its been a number of years since that problem with no further problems. I still just tap the button though, I'm not taking any chances. I'm of the opinion that these monsters can fuel lock at any time, but, I'm not going to get a case of the drizzles over it and will deal with when it happens.

[Valkpilot]

There's a running argument over "is there enough gas left in the lines/galleries to allow hydrolock".

I personally do not think there is enough gas.

A test could be devised to ascertain exactly how much gas is available.

But no one has determined how much gas in the cylinder would be needed to create hydrolock.

Everything so far has been simply conjecture.

Not one person has done anything to actually further the conversation regarding this subject.

It's all been nothing but bullshit and guesstimates.

***

With the piston fully retracted isn't the cylinder volume 1520/6 or 253 cubic centimeters? 

1 cc = 1 milliliter of liquid.  253 milliliters = 8.6 fluid ounces.

My brain is too tired right now to do some fuel line volume calcs.  However...8.6 ounces is over a cup of fuel, so I think there might not be enough in the line to fill a cylinder.

But, it would seem to me that a partially filled cylinder is worse than a completely full one when it comes to the potential for damage to pistons and valves, and maybe the starter gears.  If the cylinder is completely full, movement is immediately stopped by the non-compressible liquid, whereas if it is partially full, a good amount of momentum can be developed before the piston head slams into the wall, so to speak.

Am I wrong?

[Patrick]

There's a running argument over "is there enough gas left in the lines/galleries to allow hydrolock".

I personally do not think there is enough gas.

A test could be devised to ascertain exactly how much gas is available.

But no one has determined how much gas in the cylinder would be needed to create hydrolock.

Everything so far has been simply conjecture.

Not one person has done anything to actually further the conversation regarding this subject.

It's all been nothing but bullshit and guesstimates.

***

With the piston fully retracted isn't the cylinder volume 1520/6 or 253 cubic centimeters? 

1 cc = 1 milliliter of liquid.  253 milliliters = 8.6 fluid ounces.

My brain is too tired right now to do some fuel line volume calcs.  However...8.6 ounces is over a cup of fuel, so I think there might not be enough in the line to fill a cylinder.

But, it would seem to me that a partially filled cylinder is worse than a completely full one when it comes to the potential for damage to pistons and valves, and maybe the starter gears.  If the cylinder is completely full, movement is immediately stopped by the non-compressible liquid, whereas if it is partially full, a good amount of momentum can be developed before the piston head slams into the wall, so to speak.

Am I wrong?

Part of what you said is true. But, all thats needed to lock a cylinder is just slightly more than the amount of the combustion chamber only. Its been along time but I think the chamber size is in the 20-30 cc range. If you take into consideration the length of the fuel line from petcock to the far float valve, I know its enough to lock a cylinder.

[Robert]

I bought my bike new off the showroom floor, under warranty the petcock failed 3 times. The last time even when off it did not stop the flow of fuel. Almost hydrolocked one time but I caught it and did not do any damage. Replaced the stock petcock with a Pingle then replaced the Pingle with a belly tank. I did not totally trust the Pingle either but the belly tank has no chance of hydrolock.
 There is not enough fuel in the lines or bowls to cause hydrolock. The bowls are below the jets and the lines would have to break a vacuum for the fuel to drain from them. Not to mention some have had fuel on the ground and in the oil. The other point is some have taken out the plugs and had gas shoot out from the cylinders. It was described as a mess on a wall that takes more than 25 cc of fuel and in more than one cylinder.
 This poll does not take into account all those that have come before either because on the old board there was also much talk of this problem. This comes from a bike that has not been in production since 03 and yet 10 years later this is still a problem. So what ever the current numbers are its only still a drop in the bucket becuse of all the past who have encountered it.

[SpidyJ]

I bought a 99 IS that was sitting for a while.
28K mi.
Test rode it on Saturday.
Went to pick it up Sunday and it had hydrolock.
Owner fixed it good as new at the dealer..>$2k!  Mechanic said the carb float seats were all gunked up.  Don't know if owner had the petcock turned off.
Great fellas.....Jim Csabi and his son in Port Something Florida near Daytona.
Made it right and I 'm happy. Rebuilt the petcock and installed a Dan Marc when I got it home.

[Ricky-D]

I'm more inclined to agree with Robert and what he says, but I also want to add a little more to the conversation.

It is also important to realize, when discussing the available fuel (in the lines) what initially happens when the

float needle starts leaking.

It will first fill up the float bowl. The float level is not the capacity of the bowl and the overflow level of the

carburetor (bowl) is definitely greater than the float level.

The point of overflow of the carburetor needs to be overcome before gasoline has a chance of running down

the intake runner and into the cylinder.

Exactly how much gasoline this would be has never been determined. I do know that even if the gas could somehow

find a way to empty out of the gas line, it would first have to fill the carburetor to overflowing first.

Again, I want to emphasize that the only way to test the petcock for leaking is to detach the fuel line and observe.

It doesn't take but a few drops a minute to equal an amount large enough to flood any system when considering

overnight parking, or for that matter an extended evening at the bar.

***

[MarkT]

the float bowls are below the fuel nozzles that feed the cylinders therefore they must have a fuel supply that will overflow the bowls and at least partially fill a cylinder. i don't believe the fuel stored in the fuel lines would be enough to cause hydro-lock. two options exist, either the petcock fails and allows fuel to override or take advantage of a problem in the float system, or, the petcock diaphragm can fail and allow fuel to pass down the vacuum line and into #6 cylinder.

I don't get how the vacuum line scenario could happen, given this:
Both the fuel valve diaphram and the vacuum diaphram have to fail for there to be a path for the fuel to pass down the vacuum line - and there is a vent between them, so if the fuel diaphram cracks, fuel will leak out the vent and you will know you have a failure from the leak. If the vacuum diaphram cracks, you will also know it because the bike won't run with the vacuum diaphram remaining closed due to the leak. There is a mod to change the OEM petcock to full manual, and eliminate the vacuum function - and close off the vacuum line. Here's a thread on that mod: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php?topic=37577.0

[MarkT]

Hydrolock has to have at least two things happen before it can occur. A leaky petcock and a carb float valve not shutting off the fuel.

AND, the offending cylinder must be on the compression stroke.  

I suspect the stroke doesn't matter.  Though I said it did on my tech tips page.  Because if the gas overflows the carb due to leaking float valve (and petcock), it will fill the runner below the carb if the intake valve is closed and seals well. Of course if the valve is open the gas goes on into the cylinder. Once the engine cranks and the valve opens on the intake stroke, the gas drops into the cylinder then on the compression stroke you get the hydrolock.

[pouch]

an electric fuel shut off between the petcock and the carbs will do the job. without it youre looking at a lot of work and cost on mine I had to weld the rear housing. this will help pouch. float wont by pass unless you leave the key on 

[Patrick]

I bought my bike new off the showroom floor, under warranty the petcock failed 3 times. The last time even when off it did not stop the flow of fuel. Almost hydrolocked one time but I caught it and did not do any damage. Replaced the stock petcock with a Pingle then replaced the Pingle with a belly tank. I did not totally trust the Pingle either but the belly tank has no chance of hydrolock.
 There is not enough fuel in the lines or bowls to cause hydrolock. The bowls are below the jets and the lines would have to break a vacuum for the fuel to drain from them. Not to mention some have had fuel on the ground and in the oil. The other point is some have taken out the plugs and had gas shoot out from the cylinders. It was described as a mess on a wall that takes more than 25 cc of fuel and in more than one cylinder.
 This poll does not take into account all those that have come before either because on the old board there was also much talk of this problem. This comes from a bike that has not been in production since 03 and yet 10 years later this is still a problem. So what ever the current numbers are its only still a drop in the bucket becuse of all the past who have encountered it.

Take 25cc of fuel and spray it, see what it looks like. All I can say is what I know. In my opinion, which isn't worth anything, what I've mentioned is what I know. Anything different is conjecture. But, anyone is certainly free to think what they want. I've live in the north country and have been dealing with fuel/ether locks long before the Valk was even thought of.

[98pacecar]

Can someone who has a Dan Marc fuel shutoff valve,,,,,,,,, give me a part # ?     

Thanks,, Jim

[salty1]

Can someone who has a Dan Marc fuel shutoff valve,,,,,,,,, give me a part # ?    

Thanks,, Jim

There are more than one available that will work. I've installed the one shown below on two different Valks and they are working great. Do a search and you will find all kinds of information.

http://www.dan-marcrvparts.com/12vomufushof.html

[98pacecar]

Ok,,,,,,,,,  Thanks