Page 425 of the so-called health reform bill, or how to end your life??

[John Schmidt]

OK, apparently anyone on SS, Medicare, etc., will be at risk if the government starts playing God. Just listen and draw your own conclusions. As for me, I can't wait for the mid-term elections next year, we need to clean house.

http://fredthompsonshow.com/premiumstream?dispid=320&headerDest=L3BnL2pzcC9tZWRpYS9mbGFzaHdlbGNvbWUuanNwP3BpZD03MzUxJnBsYXlsaXN0PXRydWUmY2hhcnR0eXBlPWNoYXJ0JmNoYXJ0SUQ9MzIwJnBsYXlsaXN0U2l6ZT01

[98valk]

"They're going to have to give up paying for things that don't make them healthier," Obama said. 7/22/09


and what does that mean. its means that some stupid govt desk jockey (I work with a lot of them) will determine what care anybody will get based on "does it improve your health, get rid of the condition" or "does just prolong your life". The elitist and corporation people running this country and world are telling us their plan, but for the most part the american people are to stupid to understand. Esp. when BO preaches using the mob mentality against everyone, which he learned to do at rev wrights church.

[John Schmidt]

"Too many people are now voting for a living, instead of working for a living!"

Kinda reminds me of the last election and the big blowout in D.C. with nearly two million lemmings. I asked how come they couldn't get 200K people out of New Orleans with a five day advance notice, but they could get two million in and out of D.C. in less than two days. Guess it's because in D.C. they were there to listen to all those hollow promises from the Pied Piper. Now with the unemployment rate at well over 10% and rising......

[Big Rig]

I vote we get the same medical and health insurance that the house and senate members recieve along with the retirement package they get....full salary to the day they die...does anyone else have a pension like that???? I know when it is time for me to tap into my 401k (if there is anything else left) they will nail me with what ever tax rate they so choose....keep letting the illegals in and there will be no one left paying taxes to support their arses...sorry my friday evening, i have not had my beer yet rant....

 

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Sorry, but I think this is only the tip of the iceberg. Just a small hint of what will come later if the government takes over our health care.

I think everyone will be required to take a yearly physical, at least that’s what they were talking about before the election. Then of course there will be recommendations of lifestyle changes you need to make in order to be “cost effective”. In our increasingly cashless society it’s not much of a stretch to imagine a time when you bank card won’t let you buy foods or drinks your Dr. recommends against.

Big Brother on steroids.

[Chrisj CMA]

Sorry, but I think this is only the tip of the iceberg. Just a small hint of what will come later if the government takes over our health care.

I think everyone will be required to take a yearly physical, at least that’s what they were talking about before the election. Then of course there will be recommendations of lifestyle changes you need to make in order to be “cost effective”. In our increasingly cashless society it’s not much of a stretch to imagine a time when you bank card won’t let you buy foods or drinks your Dr. recommends against.

Big Brother on steroids.

Gee Frye......I certainly hope it doesnt go that far, although Im with you I think controlling everything is where we (they) are heading.  I have a bad feeling that its going to take Americans banding together and standing up.....(aggressively and maybe even violently) whenever we have had enough to show them Washington Pinheads just where the "line" is

Flame on, Im not the only rational person that feels this may be in our future.  If it isint needed GREAT, if it is I hope there are enough of us ready and willing

[solo1]

Another thing to keep in mind.  The government will definitely think that riding motorcycles is hazardous to your health.  They will then not pay for any motorcycle involved injuries.  The private sector medical insurance companies (if they would still exist) will then see an opportunity to raise their premiums or not insure at all.  The possibilities are endless.

Some states, I understand, allow riders to not wear helmets if they show proof of self insurance.  That's the slippery slope that establishes "riding is dangerous"  legally, so there is precedent.

Don't be too complacent just because you're not old enough for Medicare.  This is a good way for government to control and stop the "risk takers". 

We need change in 2010.

[Chrisj CMA]

AMEN Solo1 except this time, we will make sure what the CHANGE is before hand 

[Scanner]

Yep, don't want the government involved in healthcare. Leave it to the insurance companies, they do a great job and post multi-billion dollar profits too!

I'm sure most here will turn down medicare, medicaid or vets benefits because of government involvement, right?

I can't help being thankful that the republicans made sure the governments $750 billion drug "care" bill stipulated that they can't negotiate lower drug prices - we don't need all those pharma CEO's on welfare. 

They need to stop all them old people from going to Canada and Mexico for their drugs too! They may be half the price, but they haven't been thru that darned government FDA testing, even though they're the same drugs we get, they might be fake!

Yep, I have my insurance and they give everything they say I need (though my doctor disagrees) - screw everyone else, they just need to take better care of themselves!

[John Schmidt]

Yep, don't want the government involved in healthcare. Leave it to the insurance companies, they do a great job and post multi-billion dollar profits too!


Yep, I have my insurance and they give everything they say I need (though my doctor disagrees) - screw everyone else, they just need to take better care of themselves!

Yes Scanner, and I have one of the best available also, having retired from State of Fla. employment a number of years ago. This policy covers everything but my prescription copay, hospital stays are 100%. It costs me more than I like, but one months prescriptions for my wife pays for it twice over. If one were to read the bill(bull) a bit closer, mr. obama's program will basically make my current policy illegal if his program passes. It won't be right away, but eventually my coverage will be forced out of existence. Frankly, I doubt he has any idea of what is actually in that bill. I can't imagine anyone with two brain cells working would want such a plan forced on them or anyone else. It's already been shown that the so-called 50 million uninsured is a false figure, and if you back out the illegals which are going to be included in this fiasco, it's even smaller. Here's something that might be of interest from north of the border, who by the way call obama an arrogant, inexperienced individual that's in way over his head.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 Claude Castonguay - the former health minister and chief champion of public health insurance in Canada - recently chaired a committee that reviewed the system in Quebec.

     Guess what! He reported that the system is in "crisis" - the same word Obama has used to characterize our health care system.

     Here's what Castonguay's committee concluded. (And we're not making this up):

"We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of money into it.... We are proposing to give a greater role to the private sector so that people can exercise choice."

     In other words, they've been down that same dark road Obama wants us to travel, and now they're on their way back.

     Maybe Obama could learn something from Castonguay's report?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My personal feelings.....I doubt the last comment. He reminds me of a former boss of mine, thought he had all the answers...even after I proved my methods were better. The jerk threatened to fire me when confronted with the evidence, I invited him to do so. In the end, his "know-it-all" attitude and inability to listen to other ideas cost him his job. Matter of fact...I got it, and was there for another thirty years.

OK, I'm done. I'm almost glad I'm at my current age if this thing passes. At least I won't have to put up with it for too many years.

[Scanner]

Interesting John. Since you imply you have read the entire bill - though it hasn't been finalized or released - Can you point out where it says private insurance will be outlawed? Or is it only those programs provided by the government, such as your state provided benefits?

Do you believe that illegal immigrants are not currently provided healthcare, primarily at emergency rooms?

Unlike Canada's system, does the proposal eliminate the private sector from providing insurance? Or just force them to compete with a public plan?

I'm curious since I haven't been privy to the ongoing congressional deliberations like yourself.

[f6john]

I'm curious since I haven't been privy to the ongoing congressional deliberations like yourself.


[/quote]

 

[Scanner]

Sorry 6F's john, I forgot and used a couple of big words there.  Have your neighborhood kid explain them to you.  If their parents allow them to talk to you yet that is.   

[Robert]

What is wrong with congress? Are these men do they have a Conscience, compassion caring about people or this country? How sad what a bunch of low lifes

[valkmc]

OK, lets keep going the way we are, everytime someone without health insurance visits the Emergency room we all pay for it. Health care cost in the country are out of control. We are the only country in the worl where health care is only for the wealthy and employed and if anyone hasn't noticed people are losing their jobs and health insurance like crazy. I wrk for a school district and have been a teacher for many years, in five years my family plan has gone from $180 dollars a month to $540 a month. I have worked in Govt for 20 years and seen the waste but have also seen the way Insurance and Doctors work. Don't kid yourself wityhout good insurance you don't get the same care as people with it and you may not like a government working calling the shots but right now some insurance worker who has no medical experience is deciding who get treatment and who does not. Sorry about the rant but have personal experience with this issue.

[Scanner]

Mr. President, I write to you with this demand:

We are not a socialist country, one which believes the health of its citizens should come without the proper profit-loss determinations. I believe that my healthcare decisions should be between me, my insurance company plan, my insurance company's list of approved doctors I am allowed to see and treatments I am allowed to get, my insurance company's claims department, the insurance company doctors who have never met me, spoken to me or even personally looked at my files, my own preexisting conditions, my insurance company's crack cost-review and retroactive cancellation and denial squads, my insurance company's executives and board of directors, my insurance company's profit requirements, the shareholders, my employer, and my doctor.

Anything else would be insulting.

[valkmc]

I had a friend who died because his Insurance company BCBS denied a test. You see he was 48.6 years old, not 50. So he ended up with cancer, which could have been detected by the test. A person who was not a doctor but worked for an Insurance company made the call. I bet he was in favor of our insurance companies who made record breaking profits in the year he died. Don't kid yourself our health care is not about anyones well being. I guess somewhere along the line profit became more important than people living. Look around you can find many stories like this.

We can spend all sorts of money for all sorts of things, but not for health care. Heck as tax payers we pay for many of the sports stadiums our sports team play in.

Regardles of what happens, healthcare in this country is about to change and it is about time.  I am no expert so I don't know which health system will be the best, but the one we have now with insurance compaines and the AMA running it does not work.

[f6john]

Sorry 6F's john, I forgot and used a couple of big words there.  Have your neighborhood kid explain them to you.  If their parents allow them to talk to you yet that is.   

 

[f6john]

Mr. President, I write to you with this demand:

We are not a socialist country, one which believes the health of its citizens should come without the proper profit-loss determinations. I believe that my healthcare decisions should be between me, my insurance company plan, my insurance company's list of approved doctors I am allowed to see and treatments I am allowed to get, my insurance company's claims department, the insurance company doctors who have never met me, spoken to me or even personally looked at my files, my own preexisting conditions, my insurance company's crack cost-review and retroactive cancellation and denial squads, my insurance company's executives and board of directors, my insurance company's profit requirements, the shareholders, my employer, and my doctor.

Anything else would be insulting.

 

[John Schmidt]

Mr. President, I write to you with this demand:

We are not a socialist country, one which believes the health of its citizens should come without the proper profit-loss determinations. I believe that my healthcare decisions should be between me, my insurance company plan, my insurance company's list of approved doctors I am allowed to see and treatments I am allowed to get, my insurance company's claims department, the insurance company doctors who have never met me, spoken to me or even personally looked at my files, my own preexisting conditions, my insurance company's crack cost-review and retroactive cancellation and denial squads, my insurance company's executives and board of directors, my insurance company's profit requirements, the shareholders, my employer, and my doctor.

Anything else would be insulting.

I agree 100%, but don't kid yourself into thinking you'll have that with the obamacare program. Did you actually listen to the interview link I attached in my original post?

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Do I think our health care system is perfect? No. Do I think it's the best or one of the best in the world? Yes.

One of my sons just lost his and his families health insurance due to a strike he didn't vote for. Is that fair? No.

My oldest son has no health insurance because he can't afford it. He works, he's going to collage but he just can't afford it. Is that fair? Probably not. My after insurance costs for my broken leg were several thousand dollars. That cost had a big effect on my wife and I. Is that fair? Probably, it was my screwup.

Do I think obamacare will be better? No. I think it will make our health care system just as poor as other socialist country’s systems and probably worse for the first several years.

Yes, change is coming, it's already happened to our economy. That change isn't working out well for working people around here. Will obama be able to blame the mess he makes out of our healthcare system on his predecessor too? I’m sure he’ll try.

If one compares cancer survival rates in the USA with Europe the USA seems to be way ahead.  http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/561737

Our system could be better, and it could be way worse. It looks to me like the majority of us who work and pay our bills are going to get worse care while illegals and “those who don’t work” are going to get better care. But if the illegals are given the right to vote before the next election obamacare will help ensure you-know-who gets their votes. That’s probably a bigger part of the plan than quality of health care.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

More on nation to nation cancer survival rates.


http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/21/us-has-best-cancer-survival-rate/

[Scanner]

You agree 100%?  That is the system you want and hope for?  You should be happy then John as that is what we currently have, not what Obama or progressives are going for.   Most likely that will remain the status quo - the longer the repubs can draw the debate out, the more time for the insurance and pharma lobbyists to twist it around and frame the debate to their liking. 

Frye, Yes, we have a better Cancer survival rate than other countries - We have the technology to better fight catastrophic illness.  But a better indication of a nations general health is the Infant Mortality rate. In that category we fall behind 44 other countries. Including Cuba, UK, Spain , Canada, Czech Republic and the rest. Not much to be proud of there.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

[f6john]

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

This from the party that promotes abortion on demand. Wonder how that would skew the numbers if we added all the aborted babies to the infant mortality rate. No one who can stand up and say we need a health care overhaul but still wants to be able to kill unborn infants will receive any respect from me. Just one more reason for  .

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Interesting page and statistic Scanner, thanks for sharing it. I had heard that before but I had never seen the actual ranking. As someone who has lost a son and a nephew to SIDS I decided to investigate a little farther. It looks as though our high infant mortality may have a lot to do with the way we care for our babies.

http://babyreference.com/Cosleeping&SIDSFactSheet.htm

According to this our babies sleep arrangements and babies being fed formula instead of breastfeeding both figure predominantly into it. Perhaps even though infant mortality is a well accepted way of gauging a countries healthcare system it should be rethought.

I wish I had studied this in 1979 instead of now. Of course little of this info would have been out there then.

[3fan4life]

I agree that the healthcare system in this country has problems.

What I don't agree with is that the Government can be trusted to fix them.

I am a vet and eligible to use the VA hospital system, I thank God that I have insurance and don't have to.

And if you want to see a snapshot of what a Government run healthcare system will look like in this country look at the VA system.

They do a good job with "little" things, but not so good with major things.



Example:

Last year I had to have a valve replaced in my heart.

The VA reccommended and wanted to do the surgery (I have to go there for a physical exam once a year, required as a Gulf War Vet).

The only option that they provided was that of an Artificial Heart Valve. (and the local VA couldn't do the surgery, I would have to had it done at he VA in Ashville, NC almost 200 miles from home.)

There were two problems with this:

1) Having an atrtificial valve means that you must be on coumadin (blood thinner) for the rest of your life, this drug can be dangerous and drastically alters a person's lifestyle.

2) My employer has a policy that says a person cannot take blood thinners and remain employed there (Fire/EMS). Which would've left me unemployed after 18 years on the job.


Having private insurance gave me a choice. I was able to have my valve replaced with a bovine (cow) tissue valve. This required no blood thinners. The valve works fine and I was able to continue to be a working taxpaying citizen.

I know that there are "horror" stories with Private Insurance, HMO's and such.  But, with a government run plan there will be NO choices.  Just a "TAKE IT or LEAVE IT" approach.


And, isn't the Government always wanting to cut Medicare?

Aren't they always complaining about Medicaid cost, waste and fraud?

Aren't these examples of Government run insurance programs?


Yes, something needs to be done to fix what is broken, but Government Run Healthcare or a Government Run Insurance Plan.............


Sorry, but I'll have to say............ Thanks, but NO THANKS.            

[valkmc]

I agree government should not be the only supplier of health care, people who can afford private insurance and are happy with it should be able to continue, however there are people who have lost the insurance through no fault of their own who need help. Are we really happy with them visiting the emergency room and not paying for it? Are we all happy that individuals have to decide between basics for themselfs and their children or food to eat.

I work in a high school and see some of the horror stories created by our health care system, I also see school teachers come out of college who cannot afford the health care they are provided with (which by the way is $2600 deductible every year). Take a look at starting pay for these students and soaring health care cost it does not add up. Of course we really don't need teachers they don't do much anyway, they only have contact with our next generation everyday.

To me it does not make sense for a nation to supplement things like Yankee Stadium (take a look at where the funding for that came from, it may suprise you to find out.) and not provide the basic health care for children and working class people.

There are alot of people who say things like, these individuals should pick a better profession or take better care of themself, and in some cases they are right.

Government run health care or insurance will give us all another choice, heck it may even cause private insurance to be more efficent and affordable.

[John Schmidt]

I'm well aware of that system you described, and even with its decision making processes as you outlined it, it's still the best healthcare system in the world.  My point is, and always was, that system will disappear and be replaced by a bunch of political appointees that know even less about me and my family. I don't feel anyone but the doctor, and possibly an insuror's rep. in an extreme case, should be making decisions re. me and my wife's health. So far with my insurance that has been the case....nothing has been refused or even questioned. My wife and I are in our 70's, she has had Parkinson's disease about ten years now and it's advancing to the point of some days she can hardly feed herself. One possibility is the deep brain implant of electrodes to interrupt the nerve signals causing the tremors. At her age and cost of the procedure, I've been told that under the proposed plan it wouldn't be available. Most likely neither would the knee replacement that has been suggested, a result of a prior injury. She has as much right to available procedures at her age as does someone the age of our grandchildren, but that won't be the case in this fiasco passes. I have only read portions of the "bill" and I'm alarmed, because it approaches services to the older generation with a "tough sh++" attitude. Basically, you've had your life and with this procedure it won't extend it as much as using the same procedure on a person in their 30' or 40's. In other words, we won't get the bang for the buck so learn to live with it. It has actually been suggested that nearly $500 billion will be saved by limiting such services to the elderly. And that in a word....sucks.

I'm outta here, this is getting out of hand. No more responses unless it gets personal, then it will go off-board.

[Varmintmist]

Interesting John. Since you imply you have read the entire bill - though it hasn't been finalized or released - Can you point out where it says private insurance will be outlawed? Or is it only those programs provided by the government, such as your state provided benefits?

Do you believe that illegal immigrants are not currently provided healthcare, primarily at emergency rooms?

Unlike Canada's system, does the proposal eliminate the private sector from providing insurance? Or just force them to compete with a public plan?

I'm curious since I haven't been privy to the ongoing congressional deliberations like yourself.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf


Now you can be informed to.

page 16

"Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day" of the year the legislation becomes law.

You cannot enroll in a private plan after the bill becomes law. P 17 states that the issuer can NEVER raise the rates, so do you think they will stay in that buisness?? As to competition, did you ever play a game with a 5 year old? You cant compete when the other team can make up the rules as they go.

I am in communications and I see Govt. "competition" every day. A telco is in "competition" with catv and CLEC's (competitive local exchange carriers). The catv does NOT pay the 911 tax, or if they do, they dont pay the full rate, 2.00/line per mo. here. The telco is forced by the Govt to sell the other company a line for less then what it costs them to maintain it if the other co wants to sell service is a area they cant cover. The telco is paying the ALGORE internet tax, not so for other companies. The telco is held to a service standard by the PUC (utility commission), we have to get it working in 24 hours. Non telcos are not held to a standared. Telcos must provide service, period. If you are a deadbeat, on house arrest, or live in the middle of a swamp, we have to give you a line. Call your catv and see how fast they run a mile of wire for a 60.00 installation fee.

You dont compete with the govts pet projects period.

[Scanner]

Varmintmist, what you posted is a link to the bill as introduced.   There will be much change as the bill is marked up in deliberations between the House and Senate and the industry lobbyists who finance their campaigns (bribe them).  

[3fan4life]

There will be much change as the bill is marked up in deliberations between the House and Senate and the industry lobbyists who finance their campaigns (bribe them). 

Wow, MAYBE you and I can finally agree on something.

Read any bill that is before Congress or The Senate and the amount of amendments (add ons) is atrocious.

And the majority of them will be completely unrelated to the original bill.


This is how "Pork" is created.

It is also how unpopular things that could never stand on their own merits get passed.

This way of "doing business" for our government needs to be stopped.

"We the People" are suffering greatly because of it and have been doing so for a long time.



How do we stop this?

I don't know.

No congressman or senator is going to willingly initiate legislation that will effectively take his hand out of the "cookie jar".

There isn't an easy "fix" for this problem, but it "must" be fixed.