Loud Clank on Acceleration and Deceleration (not good)

[kyllini]

My Valk is a 2003 and has about 7500 miles on it. Well maintained (not thrashed). Took it out this season and it started clanking on acceleration and deceleration. Read the articles about similar problems and put it on lift and spun wheel in gear while lifting the rubber boot (at output shaft end).
Didn't feel any play from the u-joint but could feel a clank in the gear case.
Was actually hoping it was the u-joint but doesn't sound it, and the play/noise is further up the line in the gear case.
It's still rideable and doesn't skip any gears, but concerned about damaging it further.
Any ideas, because it doesn't sound like something I would be able to tackle myself and hate bringing this into a dealer (can't imagine what they would charge for this).
Any info would be helpful (including name of anyone in NJ willing to help me diagnose / fix this or tackle it alone at a reasonable price).
Thanks in advance.

[sandy]

If you're lucky, it'll be the driveshaft and input cup on the drive unit. Not too hard to change and parts are not very steep. Change drive unit oil while you're in there. You should pull the wheel and drive unit to inspect parts. OH and BTW: ride it a lot more. 7500 miles in 11 years is nothing.

[Ricky-D]

put it on lift and spun wheel in gear while lifting the rubber boot (at output shaft end).

I don't know how you can do this.

***

[SpidyJ]

put it on lift and spun wheel in gear while lifting the rubber boot (at output shaft end).

I don't know how you can do this.

***

Can't you put it in gear, pull in the clutch and spin the rear wheel?  The shaft and universal will then rotate no?

[kyllini]

Wheel didn't fully rotate. I spun it back and forth until I encountered pressure to see if there was any slack between the teeth or any play on the U-joint.
For clarification, while riding all is well until I let off the throttle and hear a clank, or if I'm just coasting - all is well until I throttle up and then hear the clank again.
If I stay on the throttle - no issues.
Anyway, looks like I'll have to open the gear case - and (per the instruction manual) will have to pull the motor?
Sounds like a big job and real pain in the a$$.
Any ideas what it would cost (ball park) at the dealer?

[edhill]

check the dampaners

[R J]

Can't see the need to pull the engine, but if ya got a lot of time on your hand, go for it.

[MP]

My first guess would be pinion cup.

Because of the low miles, I doubt the u joint or the dampers would be bad, but they are the next candidates.

One of those three almost has to be bad.  There is play in the driveline, according to your description.

MP

[kyllini]

The clank is within the gearcase and not on the driveline (south of the U-joint).
There is very little play (slack) at the point of connection between the U-joint and output shaft.
It definitely sounds like there's play somewhere in the gearcase.
Hard to believe this would be an issue at such low mileage, and the bike has not been ridden hard or abused.
Anyone know of a good (and reasonable) Valk tech in NJ?

[Ricky-D]

To think there should be no play in the driveline is "pie in the sky".

There is going to be play in the driveline.

When riding the bike, the play you are experiencing, will feel differently

depending on: which gear the bike is in, and, the speed at which you are travelling.

There is nothing wrong with the transmission, and since you checked the u-joint

everything is fine.  There is no history, whatsoever, of the Valkyrie having

transmission problems. You could possibly cause a lot of trouble if you keep

clanking the engine like you say you are doing. You cannot compare the Valkyrie

to any other type of differently driveline bike, such as a chain or belt driven bike.

And you will never achieve the impossible goal of no tolerances and a completely

quiet driveline.

***

[kyllini]

Ricky-D how would you suggest I don't clank the engine?
I'm not popping the clutch, just accelerating and decelerating normally.
Same as I have been since I bought this bike.
I do understand that there's going to be some natural play, but I don't believe it's an issue with the way I'm riding, there's definitely something different from last year.
The best way to describe what it feels like, is if you've ever driven a car with bad engine mounts.
When you step on the gas - it clanks.
Same here, there is a noticeable clank within the gearcase when gas on and clank when gas off.

[Michvalk]

There could be something wrong with the tranny, but, there is no real precedence for that, so start with the known stuff. You have to remove the driveline before you remove the motor/tranny, so check that stuff first. Most of us will take the bet that there is nothing wrong with the tranny, and your noise is coming from somewhere in the driveline.

[kyllini]

Michvalk - I'll remove the driveline a check everything else first.
Pulling the motor and rebuilding the tranny isn't something that I'm equipped to do.
So I hope to lose that bet.

[MP]

Then, have you checked the Pinion cup if you say sound from gear case?  

So, RickyD, he is NOT to accelerate or slow down?  How does he NOT do either of those things?  How do I "clunk" my driveline?

I do not believe he wanted "zero" driveline play.  There should not be a noticeable "clunk" in the driveline.

I started getting the EXACT same symptoms.  On acceleration, a slight "clunk".  Same on slowing down.  Tore it apart, and the driveshaft and pinion cup were toast.  Put in new, and clunk is gone.

MP

[kyllini]

MP - I have not taken it apart this year.
I took it apart last year while changing out my rear tire.
Followed all the service recommendations and everything looked good at that time.
Put on about 1000 miles since then and then bike sat inside garage over the winter.
Have taken the bike out about 4 times this year and that's when this all started.

[R J]

Hey good buddy, from the conversation here, it sounds like you have taken the rear wheel off and replaced it.

How about doing tis old fart a favor and pull the rear wheel one more time.

This time we is going to check out the pinion cup.

I'll lay $$$$ on the table it is TOAST.

Ya want to take that bet?   If so, go for it and we see who pays who,

Thanks Brother.
RJ.

[kyllini]

Hey RJ, I'll take it off and hope to lose the bet!

Stay tuned.

[R J]

Thank ya kind sir.   

I hope ya lose also, but if ya do, take the bet $$$ and put it towards the parts needed.

In the future, keep those 2 little holes clear when reinstalling these parts.

Later, I got to go mow grass.   Riding mower w/power steering.   LOL......

[MP]

Hey RJ, I'll take it off and hope to lose the bet!

Stay tuned.

That is what I believe is wrong.

This is one bet you WANT to lose!  The driveshaft, pinion cup is an easy, and relatively cheap repair.  About $100 when I did it for both a new shaft and pinion cup.  Any of the other problems will be more $.  And maybe a LOT more work.

MP

[kyllini]

Thanks guys.
I think I'll try tackling it next weekend.
Stay tuned.

RJ - ever think about adding a turbo on that mower of yours (since you already got the power steering).
LOL

[R J]

Thanks guys.
I think I'll try tackling it next weekend.
Stay tuned.

RJ - ever think about adding a turbo on that mower of yours (since you already got the power steering).
LOL

If it was water cooled it might be a possibility.

Air cooled, ain't no way in God's green earth.
That would fry the engine.

I've forgotten the year now, but like maybe 1970's, I used to pull Garden Tractors.
I had a Volkswagon engine on a little 'White' brand tractor.   We raced it for about 7 or 8 years.  Same engine.   A few rear ends, and transmissions. 

Actually, the only thing that belonged to the White family, was the name plates and the tin.     Everything else was off of something else or machine shop made.

Didn't make any $$$$ at it, but it sure was a fun thing to do.    Got away from the monotony of Police work on the weekend if I wasn't working.....   There were about 4 or 5 CHP officers who were pulling tractors also.

[kyllini]

RJ - sounds like you had some good times back in the day.
Did the same stuff back in my younger days.
Even added wings to some of my contraptions (don't ask).
No pictures, but still got the bruises & good memories to prove it.

[R J]

RJ - sounds like you had some good times back in the day.
Did the same stuff back in my younger days.
Even added wings to some of my contraptions (don't ask).
No pictures, but still got the bruises & good memories to prove it.

I used to go to all the BIG tractor pulls, enjoyed them very much.

A bunch of people in California got together and someone showed us a video of these little tractors pulling in Illinois.

So about 14 or so of us decided to build a few tractors to have pulls on the weekends.   1st ones were basically stock stuff.   That got old so 9 of us started building these supper fast tractors.   Started with  a hopped up Briggs, kept blowing the heads off of it.   Those little engines did not like blowers very much.

Then I went to the VW engine and all hell broke loose then.   Once it was done and worthy of doing it's job pulling, for sheets & grins we clocked it on the front straight away at the Fairgrounds.   Mine clocked out in the 40 MPH range.

In a pull, I'd twist the engine into the 8,500 RPM's.    Took the rev limiter off of it one Saturday, and it hit 9,300 just before it went into pieces all over the track.

That was the only VW engine we blew.   Got a Porshe engine next and that was a very high winding engine.   Had to tear it down every 3rd or 4th week for a rebuild.  Basically, we changed the main bearings and the rod bearings, put it back together and then went out and tore 7734 out of it again for 3 or 4 weeks.

Out where I lived in Grass Valley, I was on 10 acres of land.   So, I'd hook a large wagon on the back, stuff all the kids in it and take them for a ride around the grounds.   Once I got too much steam coming into a dip and then a turn.  The oldest boy was playing arms in the air and not hanging on.    Yup, his arse got flipped out.    He would not ride in it again, BUT, he'd drive the unit almost wide open and whoop and holler.   Had to put an end to the kids driving it before someone got hurt........

Around here in Iowa, the Garden Tractor pulling is almost nill.    My neighbor before he passed from cancer had a John Deere tractor, he put a 1,000 cc Gold Wing engine and a BLOWER on it.     That sucker would throw rocks off the rear tires into the air out of sight.   I wouldn't even ride it and I'll usually try anything once.

[kyllini]

Great story RJ, and don't blame you one bit on not letting the kids drive it.
Use to race tractors with a buddy of mine on a beach in Greece.
One day his tipped over (tractor partially on top of him) - bad scene & he was lucky to get out alive.
But then again - crazy sh-t was all we did back then.
My middle name (besides Mad) was "faster".
If it didn't have a motor in it - I'd put one in there and if it already did - I'd put a bigger one in it.
One of my first bikes was a cafe racer (before they had a name for them) I built with a Honda 50 CC chassis with a Zundapp 125 CC motor. Straight (no baffle) pipe - short clip-ons & no fenders & no license plate either.
Still the most fun I've has on a bike.
Buddy of mine had a VW dune buggy - we swapped out the VW motor for a Porsche and spent a summer popping wheelies on this thing.
Anyway, enough time down memory lane - I figure maybe I got one more interesting build in me when I retire, but this time with a lic. plate (LOL).
First things first though - I got to get the Valk back on the road.
Beautiful day out here, and I'm getting cabin fever.

[R J]

Get off of your can then and tear it apart.

I want to know if i won the bet or not.

LOL.     

[3W-lonerider]

I remember one time having a clank or clunk on exceleration and decell.
 my problem turned out to be the 4 bolts holding the pumpkin to the drive shaft had lossened up and was twisting when speeding up and slowing down.

[indybobm]

Does it clunk when you use the rear brake?

[Hoser]

Then, have you checked the Pinion cup if you say sound from gear case?  

So, RickyD, he is NOT to accelerate or slow down?  How does he NOT do either of those things?  How do I "clunk" my driveline?

I do not believe he wanted "zero" driveline play.  There should not be a noticeable "clunk" in the driveline.

I started getting the EXACT same symptoms.  On acceleration, a slight "clunk".  Same on slowing down.  Tore it apart, and the driveshaft and pinion cup were toast.  Put in new, and clunk is gone.

MP

Sounds like what happened to me in Arkansas last fall, not too bad on prices, less than 200 bucks including the u-joint.  I had some trouble doing the work, so I got some help from my adult son, to get a couple more hands when removing and reinstalling.  Used to do the lifting and installing solo, but I needed a little more horsepower at my age.    I changed the u-joint cause my bike has 127000 miles on it and I had one in the garage.  I'm going with MP on the most likely.  Hoser

[Ricky-D]

Well, I guess it will all boil down to the quality of the inspection.

***

[mustang071965]

mine did the same thing the first of this year. on lift checked the spin of the rear tire and it would spin till it hit a hard spot. pulled the diff and then the u joint. the u joint was shot. just hanging togeather. the noise it made riding sounded like it came from the trans under neath me. but it was the u joint transfering the sound through the trans. pull the dif and the lower your swing arm down and you can pull the u joint out between the swing and trans after removing the rear brake fluid resi out of your way.

[kyllini]

Update:

It's looking more and more that I (unfortunately) may have won the bet.
Pulled the tire, driveshaft & u-joint.
Everything looks good - fully lubricated and little to no wear.
Didn't feel any slack while turning the wheel and driveshaft either.
I (again) spun the output shaft in 1st gear (with U-joint removed this time) and definitely feel a rotational slack (back & forth - maybe 5 degrees) before before it engages.
Not sure if this is normal, but don't think it should be.
At this point I'm super frustrated.
The bike is gorgeous and engine runs great, but I cannot ride it.
Kind of like marrying a supermodel who tells you on your wedding night that she can't have sex.
Should have stayed with my previous lady (2011 Kawasaki Concours 14 - which I sold and bought the Valk), not too pretty to look at, but was always in the mood!
If anyone has any further suggestions, and/or is close to NJ shore (exit 116 off GSP) and can drop by for a second opinion it would greatly appreciated.
Really, not sure what to do at this point (I'm stuck).
Help!

John

[pancho]

because the driveshaft and ujoint are a moving assembly and spring loaded, under certain torque conditions I believe the assembly can move end to end and cause clunks. I haven't heard what you are hearing, but if it does not sound like anything is coming apart and you feel as if everything has been inspected thoroughly,, I would ride it.   

                   Did you check the gear backlash in the final drive??

[kyllini]

Pancho  - I'm not sure what the designed rotational slack is in the gearcase so I'm I'm concerned about further damaging something.
This whole issue started all of a sudden and got worse very quickly so I got the impression something may actually fail and cause more damage - otherwise I would just ride it until it failed.
In looking up this problem with on this site, it seems that the issues always turned out to be something in the driveshaft, pinion cup, u-joint or dampers.
I still have not check the dampers, but they looked great about a 1000 miles ago and too frustrated at this point to check these today.
(i.e. not feeling very confident they would be the cause (especially with 7200 miles on the bike).

[R J]

I'd check the damper ASAP.

That will eliminate a problem and we can lay in on something else.

My 1st suggestion would have been Pinion Cup.

2nd would have been driveshaft.

3rd would have been the dampener in the rear wheel.

4th would of been the 4 bolts on the rear housing that you tighten LAST on a wheel replacement.

PS:    I'm assuming you did check the splines in the rear end.

Post some pictures of what ya have torn apart and looked at.  OK?

[pancho]

Pancho  - I'm not sure what the designed rotational slack is in the gearcase so I'm I'm concerned about further damaging something.
This whole issue started all of a sudden and got worse very quickly so I got the impression something may actually fail and cause more damage - otherwise I would just ride it until it failed.
In looking up this problem with on this site, it seems that the issues always turned out to be something in the driveshaft, pinion cup, u-joint or dampers.
I still have not check the dampers, but they looked great about a 1000 miles ago and too frustrated at this point to check these today.
(i.e. not feeling very confident they would be the cause (especially with 7200 miles on the bike).

Well, it seems as if you really are looking for the problem to be in the transmission, and that is the least likely area for the "clunk" you are describing to be coming from no matter where the sound seems to be,, sounds can be deceiving as to their origin.

You said you removed the wheel, driveline and ujoint, did you put the ujoint in a vice and put channel locks on the other end to really twist it to feel for play?  When mine went out, I removed it and it felt so good in my hands that I re installed it.... only later I removed it again and found that it had play under load.

The dampers are made of a rubber compound, so they go bad with time, not miles,, they can shrink up and cause slack.   The slight (5 degrees) play in the output shaft is normal,, nothing is zero tolerance.

[kyllini]

Ok I will check the dampers next.
I did not put the u-joint in a vice and twist with channel locks so I supposed it could still be defective.
I did try moving the dampers (without having moved the plate which holds them in place) and 2-3 of them seemed to have some play.
Not sure what would be considered too much play.
How would I determine of the dampers are bad (besides an obviously shredded damper)?
Trust me when I tell you I'm looking for (and hoping for) anything BUT a problem within the gearcase.
I will also try to post some pictures too (never posted pictures before so need to read up on it).

[pancho]

The dampers should be a firm fit in the wheel, you should not be able to move them around. If they are original, they need to be replaced.  Check the gear backlash in the final drive.

[kyllini]

Sounds like the dampers may need to be replaced.
Backlash from Final drive feels minimal - but I'm twisting by hand so obviously I won't be seeing actual play under load.
Still not convinced this clunking is solely from dampers but I'll check the u-joint more thoroughly to determine if that may also be an issue.
Still crossing my fingers that I can stay out of the gearcase.

[The emperor has no clothes]

The dampers should be a firm fit in the wheel, you should not be able to move them around. If they are original, they need to be replaced.  Check the gear backlash in the final drive.

Hopefully it is just the dampeners but I don't think it would be making the loud clanking sound unless they were fried. At 7500 miles it doesn't seem like ujoint would be bad but I would inspect that more thoroughly . I know you already inspected pinion cup and driveshaft. Not to be insulting but have you checked fluid level in the differential? Since you have the wheel off already I would also check the wheel bearings. Hope it comes to an easy and cheap fix. Don't give up yet. These things are pretty bullet proof.

[kyllini]

I just got this off a few hours ago and haven't checked everything yet.
The oil may have been a bit low, but not sure that would make it clunk (without any apparent wear & tear on the parts).
Everything seems to be well lubed and although some minor wear on driveshaft, it feels / looks good.
Will probably end up taking the entire final drive apart and redo with (some?) new parts.
I just need to make sure I'm fixing / replacing the right parts.
I'm still a bit surprised at the rotational slack at the output shaft.
And as soon as I figure out how to post pictures, I will do so.