Fork seals

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

A member recently posted (Steve K?) that his fork seals were installed upside down and were leaking. I believe I have the same problem    A club member who had done several before assisted me in doing the seal replacement and he seemed a bit confused on which side was up, before I could check it out he claimed to have remembered and installed the seals. Now they are slowly leaking all the time. I am planning on checking the oil lvl in the forks before I tear them down again (the new fluid amounts were measured carefully, don't believe they are over filled but want to make sure)
I have 2 questions before I get in to it.
One-Is there anyway to verify the seals are in upside down before I tear it all apart?
Two-Should I order new seals first or can I just flip the seals I just installed (Steve K, what did you do?)
Thanks for the help guys!
 

[Ricky-D]

If you can get them out without ruining them, you could reuse them. I wouldn't recommend that however and they are not expensive.

Are you just assuming they are installed backward because of the leaking?

I would recommend that when changing the seals the guides should also be replaced. This is more expensive but if you consider the reason for the leaking seals it becomes clearly evident.

***

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Actually have to admit I am assuming the seals are backwards. I only base this on the message from Steve K and the fact that my seals are doing just what his did. Installed cleanly and properly measured fork oil and the very first ride both sides are leaking  I have a feeling I won't know the full answer till I take them apart again. Bike only has 27K on it, the old seals gave out from the bike being ungaraged and left in the elements I believe, the dust covers were dry rotting off the bike. Both forks are smooth and no reason for them to damage the seals. Hell, maybe the new seals got damaged on instalation. I agree with you and I am going order new seals before I even open them up. Anyone else have tips I would welcome them. Thanks Rick

[Steve K (IA)]

Hi Scott,
Believe me when I say...I feel your pain.   Since I now consider myself an expert in this area I can at least tell you what end of the oil seal gets pressed into the upper tube, the dust seal ...well that's pretty evident.  When looking at the oil seal, you will notice a slight bevel on one edge.  This is the side of the seal that will be facing outwards.  The more blunt end is the end that is pressed into the upper leg.
Ricky-D is probably correct about reusing the seals, but I didn't want to take a chance and they were only $21 a set at my dealer...I bought new again.  I didn't want to have to do this job a third time in as many weeks.  Also, when you were in there the first time did you replace both bushings?  One is called the slider bushing and the other is the guide bushing. 
Pictures work best sometimes, so here you are.  See the bevel on the left side of the seal in the pic?  That is the end that will be facing outward or when the forks are in place, it will be facing down.  The blunt end is what gets pressed in.  My forks are dry as can be after finally getting it right.
And if you need any more advise, I can tell you how to do this job without making a big oily mess all over the bike and garage floor.  Please don't ask why I put so much thought into how to do this without making a big azz mess.   But the second time I only got about 6 drops on the floor.

[Ricky-D]

Just one last thing here on this leaking seal issue.

Removing and replacing the front wheel can cause the seals to start leaking. Either one or both.

The reason:  Not returning the forks to the original position on the axle.  Either closer than before or farther apart than before. The result is newly displaced pressures on the seal that has lost some ability, after time, to readjust (squeeze against) properly to the shock tube.

***

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Thanks Steve and Rick. As I said I'll be ordering new seals, didn't replace the guides before, but I know they looked like new when we opened them up I truly think they are good to reuse. (hope I am not making a mistake LOL) I'll let you know how it comes out. And Steve I make take you up on more advice :-) I'll let you know
 

[Tundra]

Scott, Is yours the yellow standard that Charlie did the seals on?

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Yeah LOL I was kind of avoiding names, but Charlie did do them. He was unsure on which side was up and before I could check he said he remembered. He could have been right and maybe they got damaged when they were installed.
 

[Tundra]

I thought Charlie was an exceptional Valkyrie resource and mechanic. (from story telling only) If he did your job, I'd bet it was done right.   How much oil was put in them???

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

I would have to look up the measurements again to know the numbers, but we put in just what the manual called for, used a baby bottle to measure with. I do plan to check the levels with the dipstick method once I can find the procedure and measurements for that. I'll do that before I tear the whole thing apart. I agree with Charlie's rep and I was glad he had time to work on it. My only doubt came with his uncertainty on which way they needed to be install. Ringht now even sitting a few days the forks are slowly leaking down, The ride has been great otherwise.

[Steve K (IA)]

Scott,
About the oil.  A few guys recommended to me on this forum, to use the dipstick method.  I didn't listen and thought if the Honda manual say's add X amount in ounces, it should be OK.  Also I need to add that I was led to believe that if the lower tubes were  stood upside down...in my case overnight...that all the oil would come out.  It doesn't.  When I redone the job, I thought maybe I better try the dipstick method as I was a little curious.  I don't remember the numbers without looking them up, but it's like 22 oz in the left and 24 oz in the right....for an Interstate.  I started with the left fork.  I put the proper amount of oil in a measuring cup.  When I had about 10 oz to go, I started checking the level with my dipstick and slowly added a little more until it was at the required level.  With the left fork, I had 3 oz left when it was at the correct level.  The right leg...I had almost 6 oz left in the measuring cup.  The bike rides fairly good for the first time in 8 years.  It was that long ago that I had a Honda dealer put Progressive springs in.  People here have read my rants in the past about how much I disliked them and how hard the ride was.  I always used the term "lumber truck".  OK, if your still with me...when I changed out the seals the first time, it is obvious now that I put way too much oil in.  I rode 1500 miles round trip to the UP of Michigan after I done the change out and it still rode as rough as ever.  Now it rides firm, but not a jarring hardness as before.  That tells me that the dealer long ago put too much oil in also.
Another thing.  Don't forget to wrap electrical tape around the top of the fork where the one bushing sits in that groove.  It is the edges of that groove that will damage the seal as you slide it over. 
So....there ya go 

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

You know that makes sense Steve and we only dumped them and pumped them a few times. I would be so happy to find they are over filled. Maybe I could be lucky and siphon them to the proper level and clean them up and be good to go. They aren't leaking like they are blown, maybe it is just pushing the oil past the seals. I know, it could be wishful thinking, but I like to dream  Wish me luck, I hope to get to them tomorrow.
 

[Steve K (IA)]

You got it.  Good Luck   And of course you'll let us know what you found.  I didn't bother to see how the old ones came out and thought I was smart enough to figure it out    Oh well, live and learn.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Okay I have been looking and looking thru the files here and can't find the proper procedure for measuring the fork fluid levels from the top of the fork. I think the fork needs to be compressed when I am measuring, but are the springs supposed to be out of the fork or in when you measure? What are the measurements for right and left?? Any info or possible a link or picture on this would be very welcome. Thanks guys, I know someone here has the answers :-) Experience is a great teacher 

[Steve K (IA)]

When I done it...forks off bike and assembled except for the big cap on top.  Stand upright on the floor or small stool (on a work bench will be too high for you to see what you are doing) and the upper tube slide all the way down.  I used a zip tie about 8 inches long.  On the left side you will need to push the rod around until you can find the spot where you can get it down in there.  The right side is a piece of cake.  An extra set of hands are handy at this point.  Enroll the wife or neighbor kid.
 
Fluid level Std/Tour
Left   5.6"
Right  5.3"

Interstate
Left    5.8"
Right  5.4"

Measured down from the top edge of the upper tube.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Thanks Steve  Altho it came a bit to late LOL I found somewhere on the net that said 5.6 both side, but I remember it a bit different. I did the job today and the right I have at about 5.4 inches and left about 5.6 inches. Hopefully thats close enough to solve the problem. I just came in from working on it and while doing the job I found I need to replace the brake pads, so tomorrow I am going to go for pads, hopeful our crappy Honda shop here has them in stock, if not will have to order them. Until then my Lady is out of commision so I can't check the shocks. Of course it will take a few days riding to see it the forks have stopped leaking. I'll keep you posted and Thanks again 

[Tundra]

How did it go Scott? hopefully just too much oil.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

I'll know in a few days Tundra, I got the brake shoes tonight and will install tomorrow, do a little riding if I have the time and monitor how it goes, will let you know   

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Update. The forks were over filled and I was able to syphon off the excess. The ride changed a bit, softer now altho I didn't feel it was too stiff before. But unfortunately the seals are still leaking. Both sides slow leaks, and don't appear to be blown, I would expect a lot more leakage if they were. I am back to thinking the seals were installed up side down. Only way to know for sure is a full replacement of the seals again. I am going to give it a while longer to be sure, but I see my work in my near future. Thanks for all the help guys!
 

[Steve K (IA)]

Scott,
I believe when I was having problems someone said that even if they were over full, they wouldn't/ shouldn't leak if the seals were good and/or installed properly. 

Since you helped Charlie the first time around, you won't have any problems doing this yourself this time around.  Like I said before, if you can recruit a second pair of hands, it will be much easier.

[Scott from FL, now in Maine]

Your right, after the first time thru with Charlie I can take care of it now, just need to get to it in the future. I was also under the same impression as you that even over filled they wouldn't leak unless they got blown, and then they would leak a lot rather than very slow. I will know the full story in the future 

[Bugslayer]

Your right, after the first time thru with Charlie I can take care of it now, just need to get to it in the future. I was also under the same impression as you that even over filled they wouldn't leak unless they got blown, and then they would leak a lot rather than very slow. I will know the full story in the future 

This worked great to syphon the fork oil during my rebuild last week. A short piece of 3/8" O.D. pvc and some 1/4" rubber tubing. The flat plastic piece that the pvc is stuck through was cut out from an old Tupper Ware lid. (Don't tell my wife...LOL) I was able to get the fork oil level exact to what the shop manual calls for.