1800 Air Filter

[F6Dave]

The 1800 board is a little quiet!  I have a question for anyone who has serious mileage on an 1800, which is most likely the Gold Wing owners.

Even though I've owned my F6B for less than 3 months, I already have about 7500 miles on it.  The tires still look very good, but I am thinking about the air filter.  As I remember the manual calls for changing it at 12K, but since removing that shelter is such a PITA I was wondering if that interval can be extended.  How often others have changed it, and how dirty is it if you wait until 15K or 20K?

[six2go #152]

At 12,000 miles the filter on my Valk(1500) was still in pretty good shape. At some point I put in a K & N so I wouldn't have to mess with it for 50,000 miles. I did check it after about 40,000 and it was still good, but I did clean & oil it anyway. I'm thinking that when it comes time to check/change the filter on the F6B, I'll just go ahead & do the K & N routine. My normal mileage is about 6,000 per year so that should keep me goin' for a few years.

[F6Dave]

Another question would be, has anyone removed the shelter on the F6B?  In the Honda manual it looks slightly easier than on the regular Wing, but still far from easy.  How long a job is it?

[VALKYRIE1800]

At 12,000 miles the filter on my Valk(1500) was still in pretty good shape. At some point I put in a K & N so I wouldn't have to mess with it for 50,000 miles. I did check it after about 40,000 and it was still good, but I did clean & oil it anyway. I'm thinking that when it comes time to check/change the filter on the F6B, I'll just go ahead & do the K & N routine. My normal mileage is about 6,000 per year so that should keep me goin' for a few years.

if you ran a k&n for 40k without oiling it, you might as well have run no filter at all. seen alot of bikes atvs come through the shop wih engine trouble directly related to a dry/un-oiled k&n filter.

[six2go #152]

At 12,000 miles the filter on my Valk(1500) was still in pretty good shape. At some point I put in a K & N so I wouldn't have to mess with it for 50,000 miles. I did check it after about 40,000 and it was still good, but I did clean & oil it anyway. I'm thinking that when it comes time to check/change the filter on the F6B, I'll just go ahead & do the K & N routine. My normal mileage is about 6,000 per year so that should keep me goin' for a few years.

if you ran a k&n for 40k without oiling it, you might as well have run no filter at all. seen alot of bikes atvs come through the shop wih engine trouble directly related to a dry/un-oiled k&n filter.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Up until I installed the K & N my OEM filters were hardly soiled after 12 - 15K. Evidently my bikes aren't subjected to the same harsh environment as an ATV. Also, my Valk was showing no signs of ANY problems @ 102,000 miles when we parted company. K & N says that cleaning is only needed @50K but I would think that would vary with conditions.

[VALKYRIE1800]

At 12,000 miles the filter on my Valk(1500) was still in pretty good shape. At some point I put in a K & N so I wouldn't have to mess with it for 50,000 miles. I did check it after about 40,000 and it was still good, but I did clean & oil it anyway. I'm thinking that when it comes time to check/change the filter on the F6B, I'll just go ahead & do the K & N routine. My normal mileage is about 6,000 per year so that should keep me goin' for a few years.

if you ran a k&n for 40k without oiling it, you might as well have run no filter at all. seen alot of bikes atvs come through the shop wih engine trouble directly related to a dry/un-oiled k&n filter.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Up until I installed the K & N my OEM filters were hardly soiled after 12 - 15K. Evidently my bikes aren't subjected to the same harsh environment as an ATV. Also, my Valk was showing no signs of ANY problems @ 102,000 miles when we parted company. K & N says that cleaning is only needed @50K but I would think that would vary with conditions.

how often does k&n recommend to run a filter before you re-oil it? you filter looked good because it was dry and not doing its job. they are ok filters, just need to be oiled regularly to be effective, they flow alot more air AND DIRT.

[six2go #152]

At 12,000 miles the filter on my Valk(1500) was still in pretty good shape. At some point I put in a K & N so I wouldn't have to mess with it for 50,000 miles. I did check it after about 40,000 and it was still good, but I did clean & oil it anyway. I'm thinking that when it comes time to check/change the filter on the F6B, I'll just go ahead & do the K & N routine. My normal mileage is about 6,000 per year so that should keep me goin' for a few years.

if you ran a k&n for 40k without oiling it, you might as well have run no filter at all. seen alot of bikes atvs come through the shop wih engine trouble directly related to a dry/un-oiled k&n filter.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Up until I installed the K & N my OEM filters were hardly soiled after 12 - 15K. Evidently my bikes aren't subjected to the same harsh environment as an ATV. Also, my Valk was showing no signs of ANY problems @ 102,000 miles when we parted company. K & N says that cleaning is only needed @50K but I would think that would vary with conditions.

how often does k&n recommend to run a filter before you re-oil it? you filter looked good because it was dry and not doing its job. they are ok filters, just need to be oiled regularly to be effective, they flow alot more air AND DIRT.

This is directly from the FAQ section of the K & N Website. I'm now finished with this discussion.

4. How often do I need to clean my K&N air filter?

If you have not experienced a decrease in mileage or engine performance, chances are your filter is fine and does not yet need cleaning.  To be more specific, the filter does not require cleaning if you can still see the wire screen on the entire air filter regardless of how dirty it may appear. When the screen is no longer visible some place on the filter, it is time to clean it. When used in normal paved road, street or highway conditions, our replacement air filters that fit in the factory air box should require cleaning every 50,000 miles and our large conical filters on an intake system should require cleaning every 100,000 miles. When used in dusty or off-road environments, our filters will require cleaning more often. We recommend that you visually inspect your filter once every 25,000 miles to determine if the screen is still visible. 

[VALKYRIE1800]

At 12,000 miles the filter on my Valk(1500) was still in pretty good shape. At some point I put in a K & N so I wouldn't have to mess with it for 50,000 miles. I did check it after about 40,000 and it was still good, but I did clean & oil it anyway. I'm thinking that when it comes time to check/change the filter on the F6B, I'll just go ahead & do the K & N routine. My normal mileage is about 6,000 per year so that should keep me goin' for a few years.

if you ran a k&n for 40k without oiling it, you might as well have run no filter at all. seen alot of bikes atvs come through the shop wih engine trouble directly related to a dry/un-oiled k&n filter.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Up until I installed the K & N my OEM filters were hardly soiled after 12 - 15K. Evidently my bikes aren't subjected to the same harsh environment as an ATV. Also, my Valk was showing no signs of ANY problems @ 102,000 miles when we parted company. K & N says that cleaning is only needed @50K but I would think that would vary with conditions.

how often does k&n recommend to run a filter before you re-oil it? you filter looked good because it was dry and not doing its job. they are ok filters, just need to be oiled regularly to be effective, they flow alot more air AND DIRT.

This is directly from the FAQ section of the K & N Website. I'm now finished with this discussion. :cooldude:now check on the part where it says how often to re-oil, not clean there genious.

4. How often do I need to clean my K&N air filter?

If you have not experienced a decrease in mileage or engine performance, chances are your filter is fine and does not yet need cleaning.  To be more specific, the filter does not require cleaning if you can still see the wire screen on the entire air filter regardless of how dirty it may appear. When the screen is no longer visible some place on the filter, it is time to clean it. When used in normal paved road, street or highway conditions, our replacement air filters that fit in the factory air box should require cleaning every 50,000 miles and our large conical filters on an intake system should require cleaning every 100,000 miles. When used in dusty or off-road environments, our filters will require cleaning more often. We recommend that you visually inspect your filter once every 25,000 miles to determine if the screen is still visible. 

[imrubicon]

Never heard or at least never seen proof that they flow more dirt.
Normally the only ones that say that are people selling me the Regular Air Filters at $30

[F6Dave]

I answered my own question after I made my original post.  I ordered a new air filter for my F6B, and compared it to one for my old Valkyrie.  While the 1500 filter is more rectangular in shape, they are very close in size:  about 46 sq in for the 1800 and about 44 for the 1500.  So with similar filter size and placement, and a similar engine, I think the change intervals should be comparable.  In 260K combined miles I've ridden my Valks, I've usually changed air filters somewhere between 12K and 20K miles.  They always looked dirty, but never enough to affect performance or mileage.  So I'll initially change the F6B filter near the recommended 12K and see how it looks.  I suspect it will be good enough to extend the change interval in the future.  I hope that's the case because removing that shelter looks like quite a project!

[..]

Different bike  - ST1300

125,000 miles with a K&N. Filter cleaned and oiled about every 35,000 miles.

Still getting a constant 42 mpg.

[F6Dave]

Since this thread turned into an OEM Honda vs. K&N filter discussion I'll add my comments.  I've used both K&N and another 'serviceable' oiled air filter in the past, on bikes I rode for nearly 100K combined miles.  So I've had several opportunities to clean, dry, and re-oil these things.  That process is a pain.  It's so much easier to just drop in a new replacement filter.  And if that's not enough, a K&N isn't cheap.  I've never paid more than $20 for an OEM filter for my Valkyrie or GL1800.  A K&N will cost about 3X that much, or 4X if you include the cleaning/oiling kit.  At that price you need to ride years just to break even.

The high price of a K&N might be acceptable if they worked as well as paper filters, but they don't.  Over time I've seen informal tests indicating they don't filter well, but those tests were somewhat basic and short on specifics.  Then I recently found results of a comprehensive ISO 5011 test that compared a K&N with 8 other air filters of the same size.  This test uses a high tech (and high $$) machine to flow air and test dust (with a specific distribution of particle sizes) at a precise rate.  After testing, dirt captured by the filter is weighed, as is dirt that passed through the filter, to calculate filter efficiency.  The test also determines how quickly a filter clogs up, by measuring how long it can flow a constant mix of air and dust before air restriction causes a pressure drop of 10 IN-H2O greater than the initial restriction.

The results of this test are posted in multiple internet locations.  I found it on a Nissan/Infinity Car Owner (nicoclub.com) discussion board, though other sites include more detailed tabular data.  You can read it (search:  K&N air filter test results) if you're interested in the details.  I'll just summarize in terms of efficiency and capacity, which is what matters to me.

As far as efficiency, the best filter tested was an AC-Delco, at 99.93%.  The K&N was the least efficient, capturing only 96.8% of the test dust.  The paper element filters were consistently much more efficient than the serviceable (foam and fabric) filters, so this is useful data even though the tested filters were not sized for our bikes.

I already knew the K&N was less efficient, so that result was no surprise.  But I didn't expect the paper filters to have such higher dirt retention capacity.  I had believed the claim that oiled filters had longer service intervals, which apparently is a myth.  Here the AC-Delco was again the best, running for 60 hours before plugging up, and capturing 574 grams of dirt while passing only 0.4 grams.  The K&N plugged up in 24 hours (next to last of the 9 tested) and captured 212 grams of dirt while passing 7.  The author didn't mention why paper filters had such a greater capacity, though I suspect the tightly packed corrugated paper allows more total surface area (and more pores to clog) than the thicker fabric media.

To be fair, the author pointed out situations where foam or fabric filters make sense, such as off-road vehicles where water or mud can cause paper filters to collapse, or competition engines where high airflow is more important than high filtration efficienct.

In the real world a lower efficiency filter may not make a difference.  GL1500 and GL1800 engines can last hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance.  Since the vast majority of owners never come close to wearing these motors out, some extra dirt may only show up as higher silica contamination in an oil analysis, and barely measurable wear on internal parts.  With this in mind, when I bought my F6B I seriously considered trying a K&N again.  Since a Goldwing filter change is so difficult, a longer service interval would be attractive even at the expense of more dirt in the engine.  But if an oiled filter like K&N traps less dirt, and also clogs up faster than a paper filter, it's hard to justify the cost or effort .  I'll stick with the OEM Honda filters.

[jimmytee]

Interesting , thanks for sharing. I have not looked up the results you mentioned, but were there any conclusions about air flow in general. Supposedly, one of the reasons to change to the K&N is more air for combustion. ??? The efficiency ratings you mentioned were related to particulate removal if I understood right?

[F6Dave]

Yes, efficiency is a calculation of how much dirt gets trapped by the filter, calculated as:
   GramsOfDirtTrapped / (GramsOfDirtTrapped + GramsOfDirtPassed)

It's true that the more porous (foam and fabric) filters are able to flow more air, as the larger pores will pass more air, and more dirt.  The author pointed out that this could be useful in a modified engine that can flow air more than stock.  But engines can't flow any more than a certain amount of air, and stock filters are usually sized to flow all the air the stock engine can use.

Here's how I see it.  Vehicle manufacturers are working diligently to improve fuel economy, both to meet CAFE regulations and to compete in the marketplace.  Ford just spent a vast amount redesigning the 2015 F150 with an aluminum body, for the sole purpose of saving weight to increase mileage.  If their engineers found they could have picked up a few MPG with a higher rate of airflow, they surely would have done that first.  All it would have required was a larger airbox and filter.

While Honda's motorcycle engineers don't have to deal with CAFE regulations like their auto engineers do, it's hard to believe they wouldn't use similar design parameters.  In fact I've read Honda designs their airboxes and filters very precisely, better than other motorcycle manufacturers.  These GL motors only have 2 valves per cylinder, and they don't rev very high, yet the filter is as large as any I've seen in a motorcycle.

[six2go #152]

Since this thread turned into an OEM Honda vs. K&N filter discussion I'll add my comments.  I've used both K&N and another 'serviceable' oiled air filter in the past, on bikes I rode for nearly 100K combined miles.  So I've had several opportunities to clean, dry, and re-oil these things.  That process is a pain.  It's so much easier to just drop in a new replacement filter.  And if that's not enough, a K&N isn't cheap.  I've never paid more than $20 for an OEM filter for my Valkyrie or GL1800.  A K&N will cost about 3X that much, or 4X if you include the cleaning/oiling kit.  At that price you need to ride years just to break even.

The high price of a K&N might be acceptable if they worked as well as paper filters, but they don't.  Over time I've seen informal tests indicating they don't filter well, but those tests were somewhat basic and short on specifics.  Then I recently found results of a comprehensive ISO 5011 test that compared a K&N with 8 other air filters of the same size.  This test uses a high tech (and high $$) machine to flow air and test dust (with a specific distribution of particle sizes) at a precise rate.  After testing, dirt captured by the filter is weighed, as is dirt that passed through the filter, to calculate filter efficiency.  The test also determines how quickly a filter clogs up, by measuring how long it can flow a constant mix of air and dust before air restriction causes a pressure drop of 10 IN-H2O greater than the initial restriction.

The results of this test are posted in multiple internet locations.  I found it on a Nissan/Infinity Car Owner (nicoclub.com) discussion board, though other sites include more detailed tabular data.  You can read it (search:  K&N air filter test results) if you're interested in the details.  I'll just summarize in terms of efficiency and capacity, which is what matters to me.

As far as efficiency, the best filter tested was an AC-Delco, at 99.93%.  The K&N was the least efficient, capturing only 96.8% of the test dust.  The paper element filters were consistently much more efficient than the serviceable (foam and fabric) filters, so this is useful data even though the tested filters were not sized for our bikes.

I already knew the K&N was less efficient, so that result was no surprise.  But I didn't expect the paper filters to have such higher dirt retention capacity.  I had believed the claim that oiled filters had longer service intervals, which apparently is a myth.  Here the AC-Delco was again the best, running for 60 hours before plugging up, and capturing 574 grams of dirt while passing only 0.4 grams.  The K&N plugged up in 24 hours (next to last of the 9 tested) and captured 212 grams of dirt while passing 7.  The author didn't mention why paper filters had such a greater capacity, though I suspect the tightly packed corrugated paper allows more total surface area (and more pores to clog) than the thicker fabric media.

To be fair, the author pointed out situations where foam or fabric filters make sense, such as off-road vehicles where water or mud can cause paper filters to collapse, or competition engines where high airflow is more important than high filtration efficienct.

In the real world a lower efficiency filter may not make a difference.  GL1500 and GL1800 engines can last hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance.  Since the vast majority of owners never come close to wearing these motors out, some extra dirt may only show up as higher silica contamination in an oil analysis, and barely measurable wear on internal parts.  With this in mind, when I bought my F6B I seriously considered trying a K&N again.  Since a Goldwing filter change is so difficult, a longer service interval would be attractive even at the expense of more dirt in the engine.  But if an oiled filter like K&N traps less dirt, and also clogs up faster than a paper filter, it's hard to justify the cost or effort .  I'll stick with the OEM Honda filters.

Good post F6Dave. This information gives me reason to rethink my original post in this thread. Right now I'm thinking I'll stick with OEM filters. I'll change it out at the 1st scheduled mileage to see how it looks, then decide if I can stretch it out a bit. I know that on my Valk(as stated earlier) after 12,000 miles the OEM was hardly soiled.

[jimmytee]

The reason I ask about the difference in air flow is that the conventional scool of thought among the GL crowd that when a different exhaust and torque loops are installed, that generally is accompanied by changing the air filter to the K&N filter. I think the gains are modest.I test rode  a F6B that had the torque lopps and the filterchanged as well as a tuner installed. i'm just wondering if the K&N filter adds anything really to the equation.

[Warlock]

The reason I ask about the difference in air flow is that the conventional scool of thought among the GL crowd that when a different exhaust and torque loops are installed, that generally is accompanied by changing the air filter to the K&N filter. I think the gains are modest.I test rode  a F6B that had the torque lopps and the filterchanged as well as a tuner installed. i'm just wondering if the K&N filter adds anything really to the equation.

I believe very little. Plan on adding a K&N to my Goldwing here shortly. I like the extended time between cleaning and re oiling it. Have run several K&N on different bikes, cars, and trucks. I can't buy the K&N clogging quicker than a stock. It supposedly flows more because of less restriction, but clogs quicker than a filter with more restrictive materials. Now that's JMO and no scientist. There has been talk also about the stumble in the Goldwings and don't know if the F6 are having the same issues. Mine doesn't have it, but have been reading and looking at this for the wings.
http://electricalconnection.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=162
David

[jimmytee]

The reason I ask about the difference in air flow is that the conventional scool of thought among the GL crowd that when a different exhaust and torque loops are installed, that generally is accompanied by changing the air filter to the K&N filter. I think the gains are modest.I test rode  a F6B that had the torque lopps and the filterchanged as well as a tuner installed. i'm just wondering if the K&N filter adds anything really to the equation.

I believe very little. Plan on adding a K&N to my Goldwing here shortly. I like the extended time between cleaning and re oiling it. Have run several K&N on different bikes, cars, and trucks. I can't buy the K&N clogging quicker than a stock. It supposedly flows more because of less restriction, but clogs quicker than a filter with more restrictive materials. Now that's JMO and no scientist. There has been talk also about the stumble in the Goldwings and don't know if the F6 are having the same issues. Mine doesn't have it, but have been reading and looking at this for the wings.
http://electricalconnection.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=162
David

There have been some F6B owners that have claimed to have a cold stumble or hesitation. I personally have not experienced this with mine. I've got 5200 miles on mine now. Just got it July 16th of this year. I still ride my Valkyrie as well, but it sees less time than the F6B.

[six2go #152]

I haven't noticed the "cold stumble" either. I usually fire up the bike before I "gear up", helmet,jacket, & gloves. Maybe that is enough time for it to get warm enough to get around it. 

[Warlock]

The reason I ask about the difference in air flow is that the conventional scool of thought among the GL crowd that when a different exhaust and torque loops are installed, that generally is accompanied by changing the air filter to the K&N filter. I think the gains are modest.I test rode  a F6B that had the torque lopps and the filterchanged as well as a tuner installed. i'm just wondering if the K&N filter adds anything really to the equation.

I believe very little. Plan on adding a K&N to my Goldwing here shortly. I like the extended time between cleaning and re oiling it. Have run several K&N on different bikes, cars, and trucks. I can't buy the K&N clogging quicker than a stock. It supposedly flows more because of less restriction, but clogs quicker than a filter with more restrictive materials. Now that's JMO and no scientist. There has been talk also about the stumble in the Goldwings and don't know if the F6 are having the same issues. Mine doesn't have it, but have been reading and looking at this for the wings.
http://electricalconnection.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=162
David

There have been some F6B owners that have claimed to have a cold stumble or hesitation. I personally have not experienced this with mine. I've got 5200 miles on mine now. Just got it July 16th of this year. I still ride my Valkyrie as well, but it sees less time than the F6B.

I still like the looks of the F6B. Only reason was no reverse and the wife rides with me now. I got my 12 model in late January and it now has 13000 miles on it. I work 21 and 21 so my riding time has to be quick. Between the bikes this year I have a little over 20000 miles. Would like more, but with all the medical issues between my wife and myself I'm lucky I got those miles.
David

[Warlock]

I haven't noticed the "cold stumble" either. I usually fire up the bike before I "gear up", helmet,jacket, & gloves. Maybe that is enough time for it to get warm enough to get around it. 

Like yourself I let mine warm up. I haven't seen the stumble on mine either.
David