Early clutch fluid discoloration and operation concern.

[John Schmidt]

My clutch handle will start feeling a bit soft or mushy, not the positive feel I'm used to. When I remove the reservoir lid the fluid is starting to look rather black, not the usual color seen on old brake fluid. I can then flush it real good and bring the clutch feeling back to normal. Within 3-4 months it starts losing that positive feel again. Wait another few weeks and there it is.....blackish looking fluid. I've replaced the guts and doesn't seem to make any difference, it will show up again in a few months.....usually 3-4. I'm beginning to wonder if I need to rework the clutch slave cylinder, seems to work fine with new fluid but just doesn't stay that way. Any thoughts or suggestions? Bike has about 45k on it, a lot less than desired but life has a way of restricting your activities. 

[Ricky-D]

The clutch fluid is not in a recirculating system so the problem is most likely

limited to the master cylinder, but I would suggest to change to a different

brand fluid and replace the complete fluid amount.

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[big poppa pump]

John, looks to me like the push rod seal in the slave cylinder has worn out. If your fluid is blackish in color, it's oil leaking into the slave cylinder through the push rod seal.

[98valk]

slave cylinder info
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/481498-99-gl1500-clutch-problem-help.html

[uturn]

the good news is that its possible to pull the clutch cover without dropping the engine!

[John Schmidt]

OK, for reasons only known to me....(and I'm not sure of that), I didn't mention what I was suspicious of. I suspected the oil seal in the clutch cover(#15 on the IPB) and it appears my hunch was echoed by others. I've used three different types/brands of fluid, all were synthetic and produce the same effect but give great service in the brakes, they're nice and solid. The discoloration only appears in the clutch and is blackish...for lack of a better term. As an experiment, I poured some new fluid in a cup and added a couple drops of used oil. Voila....same appearance. It kinda swirls in it and doesn't seem to mix completely, but does cause it to turn color. With this problem, as it increases the shifting becomes more harsh.

Looks like I need to back off working on the GL1200 restore for a while and fix the Lady. The 1200 had an oil leak, more like a seepage, at the bottom of the left head. The only reason I had to fix it permanently was because it dripped on the header, which did two things; stunk to high heaven and cleared out all the skeeters with the smoke. After pulling the head I found the problem that appeared to be a slightly warped head, however a straight edge proved otherwise. Apparently a slightly misshapened gasket in the affected area. Oh well....I work on it when the spirit moves me, and the spirit hasn't been too active as of late.  

UTURN....I shouldn't need to pull the entire cover, just the slave cylinder. I do know that oil seal on my 1200 was a real "witch" to get out and that was with the engine totally dismantled on a bench. Hoping that won't be the case for the Valk.

[John Schmidt]

Well, I just ordered the parts for the clutch slave and oil seals and added what I needed for the 1200. That brought the order to over $99 which gives me free shipping. I ordered the clutch cover gasket just in case, through ProCaliber is was over $2.00 less than Service Honda and $1.30 less than Partszilla. I've found Procaliber to be less expensive than just about any parts house I've found, and over $99 gets free shipping. A little extra frosting on the cake!   

[BonS]

Good deal John, it sounds like you got it well in hand. Ricky-D is right that the Valkyrie clutch is not a recirculating system but the physics behind the black showing up in the master cylinder is diffusion. It's slow but inevitable.

[Rio Wil]

I would think it is a rather novel seal in the slave cylinder that would allow engine oil to enter the slave cylinder but would not allow brake fluid to leak into the engine compartment and lower the fluid level in the m/c.  Most suspect to me would be the clutch hose black rubber slowly dissolving.....

 

[bentwrench]

Brake fluid is very hygroscopic.It will give up just about anything mixed  in it for clean water.
If you ever think there is a foriegn chemical in the brake system take sample from both ends of the system in a clean styrofoam cup then add water.The brake fluid will mix completely with the water without stiring,what ever else is in there will be quite visable.If it's oil based it will start eating the styrofoam right away.

I've found all kinds of stuff that didn't belong in cars over the years.Flush it out real well and replace anything made of rubber,it may continue to break down even after it been cleaned out.
BW

[John Schmidt]

The line/hose is the SS version, but has been on there for a few years so it's possible the internal portion of the line could be deteriorating. I installed the brake lines at the same time but don't have that problem with them. I might spring for a new line first, sure is an easier fix if that should be the source of trouble. All the SS lines have that clear covering and they're all starting to look kinda dingy so maybe it's time to replace all of them.....brakes and clutch.

As for recirculating, I know it's not that type of system. But, I feel any foreign material introduced will eventually work its way to the top. At this point, school's still out on the source, I have watched the oil for both amount and possible contamination. So far I've not seen anything, but if the seepage into the clutch slave area is taking place, it's so minute as to not be noticeable except for discoloration of the hydraulic fluid. Not enough to spot a difference on the dipstick. I need to pull the tank and clean up things in there anyway to might be a good time to pick up a new hose. About time to replace my inline fuel filter as well. Geez, this is turning into a larger job than first assumed. Oh well, at least I'm not punching a clock any more so I have the time. 

[Bighead]

100k+ and only one fluid change in the resivoir  and no problems so????????????????????????

[Rio Wil]

Makes no difference what is on the outside of the clutch line,,,,obviously.....the flexible portion of the line is some sort of rubber (ish) stuff and subject to degrading. Although I have not had the clutch slave off to inspect it  thoroughly , I am fairly sure there are two seals involved here. One that seals the oil from encroaching out to the slave body (and if this leaks, the oil will run out of a small drip relief cut in the bottom of the slave cylinder body). The other seal (cup) is inside the body of the clutch cylinder and functionally the same as any seal in a hydraulic brake caliper piston. Oil would have to pass this seal to mix with the clutch fluid.......ain't happening!!  All that new fresh fluid is probably dissolving the rubber in the flexible line.    I know it's probably not rubber...just a generic term....  

[sandy]

Use a Mity Vac and pull out all the fluid. Fill with denatured alcohol and pull that with the MV. Reflush with DA and make sure the drainage is clean. Now fill/bleed with Valvoline DOT4. It's as clear as water. Any color change will be very visible.

[John Schmidt]

Use a Mity Vac and pull out all the fluid. Fill with denatured alcohol and pull that with the MV. Reflush with DA and make sure the drainage is clean. Now fill/bleed with Valvoline DOT4. It's as clear as water. Any color change will be very visible.

Sandy....BINGO, that's what I used the last flush. However I didn't flush the system with the DA as suggested. Guess I'll park the old girl and go through the entire system, including a new hose....just in case. My hip is killing me so it hurts to ride anyway, but that's another story. Doctors!!!!   

[98valk]

Use a Mity Vac and pull out all the fluid. Fill with denatured alcohol and pull that with the MV. Reflush with DA and make sure the drainage is clean. Now fill/bleed with Valvoline DOT4. It's as clear as water. Any color change will be very visible.

Sandy....BINGO, that's what I used the last flush. However I didn't flush the system with the DA as suggested. Guess I'll park the old girl and go through the entire system, including a new hose....just in case. My hip is killing me so it hurts to ride anyway, but that's another story. Doctors!!!!   

SS braided hose is usually teflon tube inside and the only thing the brake fluid is in contact with.
excessive moisture will turn it black. the plastic bottles today allow the BF to absorb moisture thru the plastic while sitting on the shelf. metal can containers do not allow this to happen.

[moodyvalk]

the plastic bottles today allow the BF to absorb moisture thru the plastic while sitting on the shelf. metal can containers do not allow this to happen.

sorry have to disagree with this one...

this is straight from my General Motors training, once the sealed plastic brake fluid bottle is opened the fluid is to be used immediately and the brake system cap is to be placed back on the brake reservoir as soon as possible.  While the systems are open to the ambient air the brake fluid will continue to absorb moisture from the air.  Once the brake system is filled, any remaining brake fluid in the the now open container should be disposed of and not used again.  The next time you need brake fluid, it should be taken from a new sealed bottle...

[98valk]

the plastic bottles today allow the BF to absorb moisture thru the plastic while sitting on the shelf. metal can containers do not allow this to happen.

sorry have to disagree with this one...

this is straight from my General Motors training, once the sealed plastic brake fluid bottle is opened the fluid is to be used immediately and the brake system cap is to be placed back on the brake reservoir as soon as possible.  While the systems are open to the ambient air the brake fluid will continue to absorb moisture from the air.  Once the brake system is filled, any remaining brake fluid in the the now open container should be disposed of and not used again.  The next time you need brake fluid, it should be taken from a new sealed bottle...

if u really read what I wrote u wouldn't have posted what u just posted. 
I will repeat the problem is the plastic bottles allow moisture to be absorb right thru the plastic, metal cans do not while sitting on the self.
your GM training did not tell u the full story.

[moodyvalk]

the plastic bottles today allow the BF to absorb moisture thru the plastic while sitting on the shelf. metal can containers do not allow this to happen.

sorry have to disagree with this one...

this is straight from my General Motors training, once the sealed plastic brake fluid bottle is opened the fluid is to be used immediately and the brake system cap is to be placed back on the brake reservoir as soon as possible.  While the systems are open to the ambient air the brake fluid will continue to absorb moisture from the air.  Once the brake system is filled, any remaining brake fluid in the the now open container should be disposed of and not used again.  The next time you need brake fluid, it should be taken from a new sealed bottle...

if u really read what I wrote u wouldn't have posted what u just posted. 
I will repeat the problem is the plastic bottles allow moisture to be absorb right thru the plastic, metal cans do not while sitting on the self.
your GM training did not tell u the full story.

??? OK whatever you say Internet hero. It's not worth arguing over, be careful what you all read on the world wide web.  I in courage everyone to do there own research not on a forum.

My point was to just use a new bottle every time. Throw out whatever is left over in the bottle.

[Beer van Huet]

Keep on posting, please.
I recently found a considerable amount of blackish sludge in my clutch reservoir as well. Covering about half the bottom of the reservoir.
I change the fluid every two years (for 15 years now) and this is the first time I noticed the sludge.
Cleaned the entire reservoir with cotton swabs and flushed the system with new DOT 4.
I will keep on monitoring the fluid to see if this reoccurs.

[Ricky-D]

It would have been just as easy to post: "My point was to just use a new bottle every time."

simply that, than to make an argument and antagonize with: "sorry have to disagree with this one..."

and further inflame tensions with: "OK whatever you say Internet hero".

Seems to me, you're the one who needs some etiquette lessons along with better reading comprehension skills.

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