Valve Stem Seals - The verdict is in . . .

[BonS]

I worked on a Valkyrie this weekend that has but 30,000 miles and was smoking. About 5,000 miles ago it began to load up while decelerating and puff smoke when accelerating. The smoke wasn't blue but rather a light grey or even could be described as white so that was puzzling. It would also puff a bit when first started. Over the next 5,000 miles the plugs were blackening and it would consume a half-a-quart of oil between oil changes. The carbs were not suspect as we had refreshed them not too long ago. So, we decided to change the valve stem seals as this seemed to be the only likely source of the problem. Good decision. The smoking is now completely gone. Nothing at start up, nothing on deceleration. Nothing; it's like a new bike.

I looked around the 'net to see if I could find any verified valve stem seal jobs on GL1000 etc., that proved to be the culprit but really didn't find one. Nothing conclusive. Anyway, there wasn't much else that was easy to do so we went ahead.

Below are some pics of the relatively simple process. It does take some skinny fingers to deal with the valve stem keepers.

Here are a few pics of the process.

First I made a spark plug adapter to pressurize the cylinder and hold the valves in place.


Valve covers removed.


Valve lifter block removed.


A valve spring removed.


The valve spring compressor tool.


I measured the ID of the old valve seals against the new replacement OEM valve seals and found the old to measure 5.30mm and the new seals to measure 4.75mm. None were split or showing any other signs of distress. They had simply gotten old, stretched out and tired.

[da prez]

  Some times the old ways are the good ways . Gladit worked out.

                              da prez

[quexpress]

Excellent! Thanks for posting! 

[John Schmidt]

Bon, I need to replace the seals on my 1200 project. gives a pretty good blast of smoke with the first start up of the day, pretty clear if I run it again later....still a little though(keeps the skeeters at bay though). To me, that's a pretty good indication of valve seals....at least I hope that's all it is. After all, these are 30 years old. 

I'm hoping to get by without pulling the cams on it, the 1200 is the first Wing with hyraulic lifters and I'm  not certain just how it's all put together. Guess I'll find out! One guy told me I'd have to pull the belt off and the pulley, then the cover behind the pulley so I could remove the cam after removing the hold-down ass'y. for the cam. Like I said....hope not.

Just to digress a bit, they're electing a new mayor for Winter Park next week. Talk about mud slinging!!  It's almost funny, a 2-bit politician (former judge) trying to make waves like a presidential hopeful. 

[BonS]

Hi John,

Look at this picture and you can see that there is a valve lifter block that removes like our GL1500. Just six bolts and you should have access to the valve springs and seals. By leaving the cams and timing belts in place you don't have to worry about crashing things. It should be an easy job - if you don't let a valve get away from you and fall into the engine.

As for Winter Park I remember that there were just two seasons: Summer season and Election season.  

[John Schmidt]

Seasons....you're so right.     After reading your post I went out and experimented on one of my spare heads. You're right, just remove the bolts and it should lift off the cam without disturbing anything. I need to pick up an external spring compressor, the only I have is for when the head is removed. Since I dont weld, I'll hang on to my spare sparkplugs and just pick up a spark plug air hose. I used to have one years ago, have no idea where it went...probably loaned it out and never saw it again.

[BonS]

I had trouble finding a 12mm spark plug adapter for the Valkyrie but 14mm, and up, are common. It seems that I may have found an adapter but it was too short (or wide) to fit down into our spark plug wells. I'll be glad to loan you mine if you don't have any luck finding what you want. You can stuff a cylinder with rope as well. I'm sure it works but I prefer air because if the valve slips just a little into the cylinder you'll never get the keepers on.

[John Schmidt]

I've used that rope trick years ago on car engines. Didn't have two nickels to rub together(kinda like retirement  ) so my granddad told me about it. Worked on the larger engines, as for the old Gold Wing I'll first make sure the pistons are at/near TDC before removal. Then the valve won't drop into the cylinder so the head has to be pulled to retrieve it.

[Pappy!]

John - you may be able to take a spark plug and drill and tap for pipe thread for the adapter. Been there/done that for other engines. The '97 I picked up for Lesa could probably use a new set of seals on it as well with 115K on it! No issues but I would have to imagine they are pretty well worn,

[John Schmidt]

John - you may be able to take a spark plug and drill and tap for pipe thread for the adapter. Been there/done that for other engines. The '97 I picked up for Lesa could probably use a new set of seals on it as well with 115K on it! No issues but I would have to imagine they are pretty well worn,

Hmm, I'll check that out. I have a nice compressor, drill press, bits, a cheap welder I'd probably give to someone if they came and got it, so I should be able to come up with something. If I can do what you suggested, I'd still hit it with a couple tack welds just to keep it from unscrewing out of the spark plug base.

[BonS]

By the way, I used only 60 psi and never had a hint of a problem with a valve moving. When making the adapter the pipe slid right into the hollowed out spark plug but there isn't enough meat for threading.

If you use JB-weld it'll never come out. Maybe poke a tie-wrap, dowel or some-such through the adapter during the initial cure to make sure the air passage stays open. Removing the core of the spark plug isn't too bad. I wore a full face shield which is a good plan. A lot of lighter chipping blows with a taper punch seemed to work the best. The porcelain tip and electrode push (upwards?) into and then out of the top of the body of the plug when enough interior porcelain has been eroded.

[John Schmidt]

Thanks Bon, I needed the suggestion re. removing the center porcelain, it's been a whole bunch of years since I've done that.....like 50 or more. Tried it on an old plug, got a major part of it out and quit. Tomorrow is another day, I have a set of punches, all different sizes so will give it a shot in the morning. I also have some JB Weld, if you say it works good then that's what I'll try first, have to scrounge up some pipe and a top fitting. Still can't find my spring compressor so guess it's time to invest in a new one. I'll probably find the old one someday....when we pack up for the move to the Old Folks Home. 

[IamGCW]

John

Be careful with the porcelain!  Seems to me if a piece flies out and hit's safety glass you will have pieces. 

Some bad guys used the porcelain from a spark plug and busted out my truck window late at night.  A chat for lunch one time.   

Gil

[BonS]

I talked with my friend whose valve seals were replaced and carbs were balanced this past weekend using my DigiSync tool and he's really, really, blown away. He rode all day Sunday and he can't believe the difference. First or all - no smoke! He and his wife rode on Sunday and his wife followed him on her ride and was watching for any telltale signs of smoke - zip, nada. Yeah, he's happy.

As happy as he is about the seals he gushed even more at how his Valkyrie performs after synchronizing his carburetors. He says it's very apparent at wide open throttle as well as simply pulling away from a stop. By habit he's still grabbing too much throttle to do what he needs because he's not used to the crisp throttle response that he now has. Pretty cool! This was my first time using the DigiSync and it was pure pleasure. There's a thread in the General Section on this tool here: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,73795.0.html

[John Schmidt]

Today I finished hollowing out the spark plug to make an air injector. While running some errands I stopped at O'Reilly's auto parts and picked up a spring compressor like the model in the link below. I can't get it to hook on the long side, very frustrating so I'm going to try and find a different type. Tomorrow I'll scrounge up the pipe and fitting needed to attach the air hose connector. Really bugging me, this is taking much too long.

http://www.amazon.com/Wilmar-W84001-Overhead-Spring-Compressor/dp/B000N322TG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1425954489&sr=8-6&keywords=valve+spring+compressor

[BonS]

You need a friend with channel locks. I positioned the spring compression tool and my friend would gently squeeze the two "hooks" onto the valve springs. He held it there while I began to tighten down the clamp. Yup, it takes three hands or a well trained garage monkey to get it done. Once the tension of the spring in on the tool the two hooks will hold. We never did send a spring flying. I'm glad to hear you got the spark plug hollowed out, now that's progress!

Oh, yeah, you'll need a magnet tool to help fish out the keepers. Of course, very soon, all the tools you're using will become magnetized and the keepers will want to follow them everywhere.

One more trick, I put a carpet piece directly below where we were working to stop the keepers from bouncing on the concrete floor and scattering to places unknown.

[BonS]

Today I finished hollowing out the spark plug to make an air injector. While running some errands I stopped at O'Reilly's auto parts and picked up a spring compressor like the model in the link below. I can't get it to hook on the long side, very frustrating so I'm going to try and find a different type. Tomorrow I'll scrounge up the pipe and fitting needed to attach the air hose connector. Really bugging me, this is taking much too long.

http://www.amazon.com/Wilmar-W84001-Overhead-Spring-Compressor/dp/B000N322TG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1425954489&sr=8-6&keywords=valve+spring+compressor

I keep waiting for my invitation to come and help, John. I've been missing Boston's Fish House!!! I hope you've eaten there. We used to go when it was just a house converted into a restaurant with a gravel parking lot. The lines would go out the front door and down the sidewalk. Of course, I'm so old I remember Morrison's and Holiday House and so many more great Winter Park restaurants.

[John Schmidt]

Morrison's and Holiday House are gone, there's a couple new fish places, one not far from the Rollins baseball field. As for invitations, Bon...I have an open door policy. Just let me know when and I'll change the sheets on the guest bed.     

Before I read your suggestion re. the channel locks, just this morning it struck me that might help so I experimented on one of my spare cyl. heads and it worked. I have a small C-clamp I'll try for that third hand. Still need to put together the air injector, but hollowing out that spark plug was a PITA.

[BonS]

. . . but hollowing out that spark plug was a PITA.

If I do it again I'd try using my trusty Sears engraver cranked up to 11. If only I could take my Valkyrie as checked baggage!

[John Schmidt]

Bon, I made a run to Home Depot and picked up a piece of copper (maybe it was brass, don't know) that just nicely fit inside the spark plug. I bought an adapter to go on the opposite end for the hose connection, but dumb me....bought one with a male fitting. Tomorrow's another day, in the mean time the JBWeld is setting and I remebered to follow your advice and run a large zip tie down through it. I filled the inside of the plug housing, shoved the tube in, then spread some around the top at the entry point. Set it in a vice upright and will let it set up overnight. Just need the adapter for the connector and I'm ready to fuss and cuss with the spring compressor. It does work with the channel locks. 

[BonS]

Sounds pretty good John, (here it comes) but I have a concern. I had expected that you'd use a 1/4" piece of pipe like I did. It has threads. The JB weld would get a great bite on those threads. Copper pipe? Maybe not so much. Did you scuff the pipe? Some 60, 80, or 100 grit would have helped. I remember some research that I did on adhesives and anything below 100 grit didn't provide much additional adhesion. You may want to proof it at 100 psi and leave it there for a while and then use it at a lesser pressure such as 60 psi while your working right next to it. It's always something isn't it?!

(I'm probably just being anal but I really don't want to be part of anyone getting injured with a homemade tool: Especially you. And losing a valve down into a cylinder would be adding insult to injury!)

Oh, and it's about time that you get this male/female thing right! 

[John Schmidt]

Here's what my creation looks like. I need to pick up an adapter for either the air hose connection or preferably a Schrader valve so I don't have to keep the hose attached. The inside of the spark plug housing was crammed full of JB Weld when I pushed the tube through and it's threaded on both ends. This morning it feels quite solid, I'll remove the plug washer and install an o-ring, should help hold pressure better. Can't say I'm getting excited about this, don't really want to do it but don't see any other alternative. If it doesn't clear up the smoking on first start up, not sure what's next.

[BonS]

That looks great John. We took a ride last night and I followed my friend and all the while watching his exhaust. It used to be intriguing, but not anymore. There's nothing to look at. No smoke whatsoever. I hope you get the same result and satisfaction. I had thought about the O-ring but left the crush washer in place. We barely wrenched it tight and the leakage was minimal.

[BonS]

I need to pick up an adapter for either the air hose connection or preferably a Schrader valve so I don't have to keep the hose attached.

I just saw this part of your post. You'll have too much leakage to stop it off with a Schrader valve and not risk losing a valve into the cylinder. IMHO

[John Schmidt]

Here's the final version of my air injector. Decided to go with the hose connection instead of the valve type connection. Had the same misgivings as you did. If I drop a valve it won't go far, I always turn the crank so the pistons are TDC. Had that lesson when I was about 16 and didn't listen to dad.    Figure I'll work on the valves tomorrow, I'll post re. my luck. I think I might take a few pics during the procedure in case someone on the Naked GW site needs it.

[BonS]

That looks great John. We had both sides removed at once and all plugs out so the air pressure alone would spin the engine and put the piston at the bottom of the cylinder. I haven't yet figured out the best way to stop that from happening.

[wingrider02]

BonS, Silly thought, but would putting the engine in gear stop it from turning over so fast with the plugs out?

[John Schmidt]

Well Bon, I'm screwed. The spring compressor doesn't compress enough to release the keepers. The springs are short and I cranked down as far as it will go and still not quite enough. I even tried it on one of my spare heads with the same result. I have the long side in as far down as it will go in with the help of channel locks. Really aggravating, if I was doing this on a bigger engine I'd be done by now. 

[BonS]

Well Bon, I'm screwed. The spring compressor doesn't compress enough to release the keepers. The springs are short and I cranked down as far as it will go and still not quite enough. I even tried it on one of my spare heads with the same result. I have the long side in as far down as it will go in with the help of channel locks. Really aggravating, if I was doing this on a bigger engine I'd be done by now. 

Okay, did you compress the spring and then push inward on the spring/tool while using a magnet to draw a keeper out? It may take a push inward and a little sideways movement to get the clearance to withdraw the first keeper. Remember, this is a bit like brain surgery - a game of a few thousandths of an inch.

My brother used to fly me in to his city to help him with his car problems. Just saying! (No I'm not hinting for a free ticket.)

[pocobubba]

Hey guys , if you look on the internet for "valve spring KEEPER removal tools" " you will see the type you you hit with a hammer , this type can also be used to install if you get the right one . I tried to find mine so i could send it to you but it's in that special place and not to be found .
                                                                                  Good Luck

[moodyvalk]

BonS, I would suggest will the valve springs are off remove the air from the cylinder and perform a valve stem to guide clearance check.  I wouldn't think that the valve would fall into the head on the valkyrie cause the heads are on the side. 

my only concern is that if the valve guides are worn, the new seals will only be good for a little while.  so if the smoking comes back then the valve guides have too much clearance, which will wear out the new seals quickly...

but either way great write up and thanks for taking your time to post this for others...

also you would be correct, smoking while decelerating or right after decelerating is valve guides or valve seals....

constant smoking on acceleration is ring/piston area....

[BonS]

BonS, I would suggest will the valve springs are off remove the air from the cylinder and perform a valve stem to guide clearance check.  I wouldn't think that the valve would fall into the head on the valkyrie cause the heads are on the side. 

my only concern is that if the valve guides are worn, the new seals will only be good for a little while.  so if the smoking comes back then the valve guides have too much clearance, which will wear out the new seals quickly...

but either way great write up and thanks for taking your time to post this for others...

also you would be correct, smoking while decelerating or right after decelerating is valve guides or valve seals....

constant smoking on acceleration is ring/piston area....

I agree. The bike I was working on has but 30K miles so I didn't really figure that the guides could be worn out at such a young age so I used the logic of ". . . so if the smoking comes back then the valve guides have too much clearance."

That said, what's the best way measure the wear with the heads on? The only thing I know about it wiggling the valve stem and feeling for play and doing that is iffy as the oil on the stem messes with the clearance.

[moodyvalk]

BonS, I would suggest will the valve springs are off remove the air from the cylinder and perform a valve stem to guide clearance check.  I wouldn't think that the valve would fall into the head on the valkyrie cause the heads are on the side. 

my only concern is that if the valve guides are worn, the new seals will only be good for a little while.  so if the smoking comes back then the valve guides have too much clearance, which will wear out the new seals quickly...

but either way great write up and thanks for taking your time to post this for others...

also you would be correct, smoking while decelerating or right after decelerating is valve guides or valve seals....

constant smoking on acceleration is ring/piston area....

I agree. The bike I was working on has but 30K miles so I didn't really figure that the guides could be worn out at such a young age so I used the logic of ". . . so if the smoking comes back then the valve guides have too much clearance."

That said, what's the best way measure the wear with the heads on? The only thing I know about it wiggling the valve stem and feeling for play and doing that is iffy as the oil on the stem messes with the clearance.

I haven't looked in the valkyrie service manual but it should show the procedure to check the stem to guide clearances. the oil on the stems wont effect your reading enough to make a faulty guide look good...

usually it is something like this, with the valve open .5 to 1.o inches check the lateral movement of valve stem with a dial indicator and then check the forward and backwards movements as well with dial indicator.  should be within serviceable limit as per the service manual.

i agree that 30k seems low for bad guides but also seems low for bad seals as well...of course i havent been around the valkyrie scene long enough what mileages things start to go wrong...

[BonS]

Thanks for that. I'll check the manual. Yup, 30K is low but it's 18 years old and time is not kind to elastomeric components that are subjected to high temperatures. He'll be riding the heck out of it this year and I'll be watching for that first puff!

[moodyvalk]

Thanks for that. I'll check the manual. Yup, 30K is low but it's 18 years old and time is not kind to elastomeric components that are subjected to high temperatures. He'll be riding the heck out of it this year and I'll be watching for that first puff!

sorry i had a brain fart, im sure the opening of valve is not gona be even close to .5 an inche, heck the valve lift is probably only .280"....but either way the valve would need to be off the seat to check the stem/guide clearance i do believe...

im sure the manual will show you to but the dial indicator on the valve head with the head off, but you can get a really good idea with the head on doing it on the tip of the valve stem...