pinon cup/drive shaft...

[hubcapsc]

I noticed the above at the last tire change. I think I'm responsible, I think I put
moly paste in there a few tire changes ago (I don't look in
there every tire change).

I figure I'm riding on borrowed time, so I've been getting all my ducks in a row to fix it.
I've got a new universal, a new drive shaft, a visually-perfect-but-not-new pinion cup
and new 3, 4, 5, and 16, and a new universal boot, might as well do it all.



I'm also studying how to decide whether the swingarm bearings need attention, so I've been searching through
all the swingarm bearing threads in the old tech archive. I ran across a long thread from 2002 that starts like this:

                  Yesterday I put "Moly" paste on final drive pinion joint splines and final drive shaft splines (at universal joint).
                  This morning I noticed the Service Manual calls for Moly 'grease', not 'paste'on these surfaces. Has anyone
                  else made this mistake? And does it really hurt anything? By the way, bike is a '98 Valk standard.

The thread goes back and forth for about ten posts, everyone pretty much agreeing that it doesn't matter one way
or the other...

I tighten stuff in the right order when put the wheel back on after a tire change, and I think my driveshaft looked
good before I put moly paste in there... I think it matters... moly paste on the splines where the flange goes and  moly grease
on the pinon cup end of the drive shaft... the kind of forces at play in those two places are very different... whatta y'all think?

-Mike

[sandy]

Yup; they're worn a bit, but with proper grease, they could last for a few years. Never use moly paste anywhere. If it's mixed with a good waterproof grease, it's much better. Lots of us use Bel Ray Waterproof grease on the wheel splines. I use a Valvoline Durablend moly grease on both ends of the drive shaft. After 107K and no drive line failures, I figure this works for me.

[Ricky-D]

Yup, doesn't look that bad to me.

Actually the surfaces get work hardened and become more resistant to wear.

I'd suggest to simple lubricate and ride.

***

[Daniel Meyer]

1) That joint goes fast once it begins to wear. Replacing it is the right thing to do. It leaves more valkyries sitting beside the road than u-joints do.
2) Replace the pinion cup with new as well. If the shaft is worn, so is the cup (it's hard to see the wear in the cup, as it does not extend all the way to the end of it's splines)
3) Grease instead of paste here...this is because this joint is lubed by rear end oil...the grease is just assembly lube and will be washed out by thr rear end oil anyway. PASTE will clog up the lube holes in the pinion cup and prevent proper lubrication.
4) I'm not guessing, or making this up.

[hubcapsc]

2) Replace the pinion cup with new as well. If the shaft is worn, so is the cup (it's hard to see the wear in the cup, as it does not extend all the way to the end of it's splines)

Daniel, I have a different pinion cup, I wouldn't use the one that wore out along with the drive shaft.

This different pinion cup looks perfect... I'll try to post a good close up of it tonight, I've only looked at it with my
"old dude" eyes, a good digital close up will really tell.

If it looks perfect, shouldn't it be OK even if it is not new?

-Mike

[LadyDraco]

Hey Mike check this one out...
This was off of Don's SuperValk ..
Not long after he bought it...
It was still running fine at the time  ???...
And not making any strange sounds  
We where changing the rear tire and just took a looksie ....
Yikes what a mess !!!
The bike had 97k on it.. That a NC Honda shop worked on all the time..




This is one off his own B/R I/S that had 97 k on it as well ... Yes he always took good care of this one..


Tracy

[hubcapsc]

Holy cow Lady Draco!

Anyhow, Carolyn's chomping at the bits to go out the door for pizza and a movie, here's my extra
pinion cup, cleaned up and photoed - worn, I'd say - need a new one to do the job
right...



-Mike

[chip]

My fat black girl left me stranded maybe 20 miles after showing the first symtoms of what I thought was a clutch / trans. problem. After a trailer ride home and disassembly , my shaft and cup  looked very close to the one Hubcapsc is showing. If I knew it looked like that , I personally would replace it before reassembly. Being stranded never comes at a good time.

[hubcapsc]

My fat black girl left me stranded maybe 20 miles after showing the first symtoms of what I thought was a clutch / trans. problem. After a trailer ride home and disassembly , my shaft and cup  looked very close to the one Hubcapsc is showing. If I knew it looked like that , I personally would replace it before reassembly. Being stranded never comes at a good time.

My shaft picture was taken at my last rear tire change... that would be right after Britman's Memorial Day
ride and right before the Blue/Gray ride... I did about 1600 miles on the Blue/Gray ride, and have
done a few thousand since then... all on borrowed time I think...

-Mike "pizza was good, District 9 well done but dreary..."

[kepi]

Did this make any noise? My drive train sounds like a choo-choo train. There is a chug-a-chug when at a constant speed. Noisey on accel and decel. Goes away with the clutch in or neutral. Haven't torn it apart yet. Not riding it for fear of trailering!

[hubcapsc]

Here's a new pinion cup picture I got from the old tech archive:



And the picture of my extra-but-not-new pinion cup:



It seems the chamfers I thought represented wear are supposed to be there.

The fool thing's only $33... maybe I'm thinking too hard about this...

Kepi sez:

   Did this make any noise? My drive train sounds like a choo-choo train. There is a
   chug-a-chug when at a constant speed. Noisey on accel and decel. Goes away with the clutch in
   or neutral. Haven't torn it apart yet. Not riding it for fear of trailering!

Got no noise, feels like slop in the drivetrain, though... enough so that I changed out the
dampers at the last tire change (that's when I noticed the wear on the drive shaft...)

-Mike

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

Mine never made any noise at all. I just made a firm hard shift into second and when a hammered it the spline let go. Luck only a mile from work and we had a bike trailer sitting in the parking lot so I borrowed it anf got it home.

[Daniel Meyer]

"pizza was good, District 9 well done but dreary..."

LOL! Saw it at Studio Movie Grill "AYCE Pizza night".

I agree on both counts!

[Ricky-D]

My fat black girl left me stranded maybe 20 miles after showing the first symtoms of what I thought was a clutch / trans. problem. After a trailer ride home and disassembly , my shaft and cup  looked very close to the one Hubcapsc is showing. If I knew it looked like that , I personally would replace it before reassembly. Being stranded never comes at a good time.

Ok, you're trying to convey your obvious agreement with the problem of worn splines but, where's the connection with having to be trailered home?  All the parts shown in all the posts are still workable parts and would not strand anyone.

Worry wart piling on, if you ask me.

 

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

My parts were toast. Not enough contact between shaft and coupler to move bike at all even with me walking along side.

[OverdueBill]

It looks like a good pinion cup to me.  The only thing is if this will make you worry while you ride, replace it.  I'd use it myself.

[fudgie]

How do you replace this item? Do you undo the nut in the middle and pull it off?

[Jeff K]

How do you replace this item? Do you undo the nut in the middle and pull it off?

Yep, I have an old screwdriver I bent the tip and use it to get under the cup to pop it off of the shaft

[hubcapsc]

How do you replace this item? Do you undo the nut in the middle and pull it off?

Yep, I have an old screwdriver I bent the tip and use it to get under the cup to pop it off of the shaft

I went over to my buddy Dan's house and he just B-b-b-brped the nut off with the air impact wrench and the cup was
off. I guess (hope) it will go back on the same way. I have an old flange I could hook to some kind of handle to make
for some resistance... what have others done when tightening the pinion cup nut?

-Mike

[Jeff K]

I went over to my buddy Dan's house and he just B-b-b-brped the nut off with the air impact wrench and the cup was
off. I guess (hope) it will go back on the same way. I have an old flange I could hook to some kind of handle to make
for some resistance... what have others done when tightening the pinion cup nut?

-Mike

B-b-b-brpe 

[LadyDraco]

The impact wrench can be your friend !! 
 I have learned to really like this tool   

[chip]

My fat black girl left me stranded maybe 20 miles after showing the first symtoms of what I thought was a clutch / trans. problem. After a trailer ride home and disassembly , my shaft and cup  looked very close to the one Hubcapsc is showing. If I knew it looked like that , I personally would replace it before reassembly. Being stranded never comes at a good time.

Ok, you're trying to convey your obvious agreement with the problem of worn splines but, where's the connection with having to be trailered home?  All the parts shown in all the posts are still workable parts and would not strand anyone.

Worry wart piling on, if you ask me.

 

I guess I should have gone into greater detail. Whille riding one evening about 85 miles from home on the Great River Road north of St. Louis , My passenger and I (combined wieght of 400 lbs ) where pulling away from a stop at the base of a hill . I shifted  into second gear as the RPMs hit 2500 I felt a what I will decribe as a solid slap on the engine with a small sledge hammer. I stopped looking over the bike, didn't see anything. Continued on our way. But each time the RPM's reached about 2500 and under a load like a stop at the base of a hill we felt the same "slap". I turned the bike back towards home . But while pulling off a ferry on a really steep incline the slap turned to a fast grind. Nearing midnight I was the only vehicle around. I was able to nurse the bike up the incline while walking next to it .After finding a great group of folks at thier river club house and spending the night there.I was able to get my trailer the next morning and get the bike home. Upon dissassembly I found the pinon cup and drive shaft to be worn about like the ones in the earlier photos. The wear was worst toward the front of the cup, and toward the back of the shaft. I think as the motor was put under a load, with the wieght we had  on it . The swing arm extended ,the shaft moved towards the end of the splines where the wear was worst and began to spin in the pinon cup. Changed both the cup and the shaft. two rear tires and shaft inspections later all looks good, Was I a worry wart? Yes while I was in the dark with the river behind me nearly no light and a incline so steep I couldn't leave my bike on the stand. Yes I was a little worried. But met a good group of folks that provided me with cold bevrages,and a bed untill the next day. Just another motorcycle adventure . This is why I  recomended replacment.