What Kind of Idiot.......................

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Lubes the spline and pinion cup to this extent.........





....and then neglects the hub and Final Drive he went thru to this extent.  

[Steve K (IA)]

Umm, yes...it looks like a lot on neglect there.   So what's the story?  These spare parts you picked up?  You know, inquiring minds.......   ???

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Umm, yes...it looks like a lot on neglect there.   So what's the story?  These spare parts you picked up?  You know, inquiring minds.......   ???

What I found as I was replacing wheel bearings. Teeth are well worn and I want to make it right before I button it up. Means I'm down in prime riding season and out some hard cash for parts.  Rant off. 

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Umm, yes...it looks like a lot on neglect there.   So what's the story?  These spare parts you picked up?  You know, inquiring minds.......   ???

What I found as I was replacing wheel bearings. Teeth are well worn and I want to make it right before I button it up. Means I'm down in prime riding season and out some hard cash for parts.  Rant off. 

I bought a near perfect one from PinWall a couple years ago I'm thinkin' it was less than $180.00 with shipping.Check with VRCC member and vendor Carolina Bike And Trike he has the o-rings I'd go ahead and order a new thrust washer also.  Good thing about that its a easy fix ...Bad thing about that is you have to fix it 

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Umm, yes...it looks like a lot on neglect there.   So what's the story?  These spare parts you picked up?  You know, inquiring minds.......   ???

What I found as I was replacing wheel bearings. Teeth are well worn and I want to make it right before I button it up. Means I'm down in prime riding season and out some hard cash for parts.  Rant off. 

I bought a near perfect one from PinWall a couple years ago I'm thinkin' it was less than $180.00 with shipping.Check with VRCC member and vendor Carolina Bike And Trike he has the o-rings I'd go ahead and order a new thrust washer also.  Good thing about that its a easy fix ...Bad thing about that is you have to fix it 

Just got a good looking hub from Pinwall who already made good on the shaft I don't really need now. Got the hub for $40 shipped. I can get the gear for the final new for @$100 aas the rest all looks good. Ordered the O-rings, but forgot the thrust washer. I'll have to check on that next. Thanks, Dave

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Question about the dampers. At cheapcycleparts.com what's the difference between #1 and #2 on the rear wheel microfiche? Are they the same things just buying the complete set or as individual dampers? 

[Ricky-D]

I think "idiot" probably applies to a lot of unknowing riders due to their particular riding style.  I refer to the two pictures of the wheel flange splines and the accompanying drive flange.

Realize these two parts when together, in a tightened application do not move in reference to each other. Once installed they remain in the same position until you remove them for a tire change or something like that.

To me it looks like there was a lot of water infiltration due to the amount of rust present. I think rust can be an abrasive, don't know how much of one, but I know they use oxides for sandpaper. I'm sure this rust was a contributing factor for the results shown.

That said, the two parts show to me the riding style of whoever rode it. Those two parts do not slide against each other (in use) and the splines do have a little slop inherent from the design and the need to be able to remove and replace them.

That slop combined with a rider that is constantly downshifting through the gears using the motor as a brake (as taught by a lot of motorcycle rider teachers) will surely result in what you see on those splines. Slapping those splines back and forth is not a harmless riding style and is not applicable anymore to motorcycle riding and cruising.

During the years when motorcycles had drum brakes which were notoriously poor performers, downshifting was a good thing in order to keep the drums and shoes cool so they could stop you when you needed to stop.

That procedure is no more necessary since the advent of disc brakes on motorcycles. Slowing the motorcycle down with the use of the motor and transmission via the clutch is an unnecessary burden on the components as seen by the evidence of the pictures.

I bet that the clutch on that bike if not already lunched will very shortly be needing a rebuild.  To save the brakes at the expense of more expensive motor and driveline parts is not smart and surely amateurish.

***

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

I think "idiot" probably applies to a lot of unknowing riders due to their particular riding style.  I refer to the two pictures of the wheel flange splines and the accompanying drive flange.

Realize these two parts when together, in a tightened application do not move in reference to each other. Once installed they remain in the same position until you remove them for a tire change or something like that.

To me it looks like there was a lot of water infiltration due to the amount of rust present. I think rust can be an abrasive, don't know how much of one, but I know they use oxides for sandpaper. I'm sure this rust was a contributing factor for the results shown.

That said, the two parts show to me the riding style of whoever rode it. Those two parts do not slide against each other (in use) and the splines do have a little slop inherent from the design and the need to be able to remove and replace them.

That slop combined with a rider that is constantly downshifting through the gears using the motor as a brake (as taught by a lot of motorcycle rider teachers) will surely result in what you see on those splines. Slapping those splines back and forth is not a harmless riding style and is not applicable anymore to motorcycle riding and cruising.

During the years when motorcycles had drum brakes which were notoriously poor performers, downshifting was a good thing in order to keep the drums and shoes cool so they could stop you when you needed to stop.

That procedure is no more necessary since the advent of disc brakes on motorcycles. Slowing the motorcycle down with the use of the motor and transmission via the clutch is an unnecessary burden on the components as seen by the evidence of the pictures.

I bet that the clutch on that bike if not already lunched will very shortly be needing a rebuild.  To save the brakes at the expense of more expensive motor and driveline parts is not smart and surely amateurish.

***

Thanks and agreed with to some extent at least. Whoever own it before obviously didn't keep it lubed as can be seen from the photo and that would chew them regardless of riding style. . I've only had her for a month. Now how about a comment on the dampers....

[Steve K (IA)]

Dampers...just get them for at least a 2000 Valk, model makes no difference.  That way, you will get the dampers that come as one unit...the rubber with the aluminum inserts.

I made the mistake of ordering dampers for my '97 and all I got was the rubber.  So, just order them for a 2000...
DAMPER SET, WHEEL
06410-MBH-000...$31.15 at HDL

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Dampers...just get them for at least a 2000 Valk, model makes no difference.  That way, you will get the dampers that come as one unit...the rubber with the aluminum inserts.

I made the mistake of ordering dampers for my '97 and all I got was the rubber.  So, just order them for a 2000...
DAMPER SET, WHEEL
06410-MBH-000...$31.15 at HDL

Thanks 

[Sharkey]

got a good looking hub from Pinwall who already made good on the shaft I don't really need now. Got the hub for $40 shipped. I can get the gear for the final new for @$100 aas the rest all looks good. Ordered the O-rings, but forgot the thrust washer. I'll have to check on that next. Thanks, Dave

Dave I have a final that looks like yours I got off a triked bike. How hard is it to replace the splined peice in the final?

[Errandboy]

I think "idiot" probably applies to a lot of unknowing riders due to their particular riding style.  I refer to the two pictures of the wheel flange splines and the accompanying drive flange.

Realize these two parts when together, in a tightened application do not move in reference to each other. Once installed they remain in the same position until you remove them for a tire change or something like that.

To me it looks like there was a lot of water infiltration due to the amount of rust present. I think rust can be an abrasive, don't know how much of one, but I know they use oxides for sandpaper. I'm sure this rust was a contributing factor for the results shown.

That said, the two parts show to me the riding style of whoever rode it. Those two parts do not slide against each other (in use) and the splines do have a little slop inherent from the design and the need to be able to remove and replace them.

That slop combined with a rider that is constantly downshifting through the gears using the motor as a brake (as taught by a lot of motorcycle rider teachers) will surely result in what you see on those splines. Slapping those splines back and forth is not a harmless riding style and is not applicable anymore to motorcycle riding and cruising.

During the years when motorcycles had drum brakes which were notoriously poor performers, downshifting was a good thing in order to keep the drums and shoes cool so they could stop you when you needed to stop.

That procedure is no more necessary since the advent of disc brakes on motorcycles. Slowing the motorcycle down with the use of the motor and transmission via the clutch is an unnecessary burden on the components as seen by the evidence of the pictures.

I bet that the clutch on that bike if not already lunched will very shortly be needing a rebuild.  To save the brakes at the expense of more expensive motor and driveline parts is not smart and surely amateurish.

***

Wow.  Learn something new every day!  I've been riding over 50 years and have never heard of not shifting down regularly!  Just got my fourth Valkyrie; what is the penalty for downshifting shafties?  If it was going to last 100,000 miles, how many miles before it's toast if one downshifts rather than not?

[fudgie]

I think "idiot" probably applies to a lot of unknowing riders due to their particular riding style.  I refer to the two pictures of the wheel flange splines and the accompanying drive flange.

Realize these two parts when together, in a tightened application do not move in reference to each other. Once installed they remain in the same position until you remove them for a tire change or something like that.

To me it looks like there was a lot of water infiltration due to the amount of rust present. I think rust can be an abrasive, don't know how much of one, but I know they use oxides for sandpaper. I'm sure this rust was a contributing factor for the results shown.

That said, the two parts show to me the riding style of whoever rode it. Those two parts do not slide against each other (in use) and the splines do have a little slop inherent from the design and the need to be able to remove and replace them.

That slop combined with a rider that is constantly downshifting through the gears using the motor as a brake (as taught by a lot of motorcycle rider teachers) will surely result in what you see on those splines. Slapping those splines back and forth is not a harmless riding style and is not applicable anymore to motorcycle riding and cruising.

During the years when motorcycles had drum brakes which were notoriously poor performers, downshifting was a good thing in order to keep the drums and shoes cool so they could stop you when you needed to stop.

That procedure is no more necessary since the advent of disc brakes on motorcycles. Slowing the motorcycle down with the use of the motor and transmission via the clutch is an unnecessary burden on the components as seen by the evidence of the pictures.

I bet that the clutch on that bike if not already lunched will very shortly be needing a rebuild.  To save the brakes at the expense of more expensive motor and driveline parts is not smart and surely amateurish.

***

Wow.  Learn something new every day!  I've been riding over 50 years and have never heard of not shifting down regularly!  Just got my fourth Valkyrie; what is the penalty for downshifting shafties?  If it was going to last 100,000 miles, how many miles before it's toast if one downshifts rather than not?

I always down shifted prior to stop. I have 52,000 miles on the bike and the splines look brand new. I think its the care of them which determines the life expectancy. 

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Dampers...just get them for at least a 2000 Valk, model makes no difference.  That way, you will get the dampers that come as one unit...the rubber with the aluminum inserts.

I made the mistake of ordering dampers for my '97 and all I got was the rubber.  So, just order them for a 2000...
DAMPER SET, WHEEL
06410-MBH-000...$31.15 at HDL

Can't find them at Ditrectline. At cheapcycleparts.com for a 97 they list the wheel set with 1 required or the wheel with 5 required. I guess the set is what I'm looking for. Would prefer to get from HDL but don't see it available there now. 

[BudMan]

I always down shifted prior to stop. I have 52,000 miles on the bike and the splines look brand new. I think its the care of them which determines the life expectancy. 

I too have always down shifted before each stop, but 'ya know... I would rather change a lot of break pads rather than anything in the drive line!  Hmmm, good food for thought. Thanks. 

[valkmc]

I down shift alot also, never thought of it being a problem. I did just redo my clutch at 65,000 because the rivets let go. I am not sure if downshifting had anything to do with it. Brake pads are much easier to change that the clutch so maybe I will rethink the whole down shift thing. I also did the wheel dampers at the same time and most of the drive train slop went away. Ordered from HDL parts for $31.50 and I did order 2001 dampers for my 98.

[fudgie]

I down shift alot also, never thought of it being a problem. I did just redo my clutch at 65,000 because the rivets let go. I am not sure if downshifting had anything to do with it. Brake pads are much easier to change that the clutch so maybe I will rethink the whole down shift thing. I also did the wheel dampers at the same time and most of the drive train slop went away. Ordered from HDL parts for $31.50 and I did order 2001 dampers for my 98.

I did my best today to brake instead of downshifting. i really had to think about it tho! 

[Black Pearl's Captain]

What kind of idiot would never downshift a Valk and listen to the sweet sound of the engine and pipes rolling down thru the gears?

You won't wear out splines downshifting, I don't even usually use the clutch, pop the throttle and drop it a gear. VVVOOOMMMMmmmmm, VRRMMMMmmmm. Poor maintenance and miles wears out the splines.

I love my Valk sounds. I hope you enjoy listening to your brakes.

Raymond

[Black Pearl's Captain]

Lubes the spline and pinion cup to this extent.........

Probably the kind of idiot that has a good flowing weep hole in the pinion cup and lots of oil in the rear end.

You lose an oring and now you see what happens to the hub splines. I've had Honda brand orings fail in under 5,000 miles. Others have lasted fine for 15,000. I replace all of them every time.

Raymond

[Hoser]

What kind of idiot would never downshift a Valk and listen to the sweet sound of the engine and pipes rolling down thru the gears?

You won't wear out splines downshifting, I don't even usually use the clutch, pop the throttle and drop it a gear. VVVOOOMMMMmmmmm, VRRMMMMmmmm. Poor maintenance and miles wears out the splines.

I love my Valk sounds. I hope you enjoy listening to your brakes.

Raymond

+1  hoser

[deez]

I'm going to bow to the combined wisdom here and dive in. I just bought a 98 ct with 27K in it. I pick it up this weekend, but do not have  a manual  yet , what is the recommended service interval and grease type for the shaft and differental splines? Moly? synthetic blend? we'll be heading into winter soon so it would be a good time to give the bike a good going over before spring riding season is here.

[humshark]

Misunderstood
Shockbushing Gary sells dampers.  They are a high quality replacement.  There are more than a few threads covering his products including shock bushings.

Dampers from Gary are pricey in comparison - but the material is said to be superior and the results from people that have them have been positive.
A set from Dave will run you $75.  You can look him up in the member directory and send him a msg.  He ships really fast!

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Misunderstood
Shockbushing Gary sells dampers.  They are a high quality replacement.  There are more than a few threads covering his products including shock bushings.

Dampers from Gary are pricey in comparison - but the material is said to be superior and the results from people that have them have been positive.
A set from Dave will run you $75.  You can look him up in the member directory and send him a msg.  He ships really fast!

Thanks 

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

got a good looking hub from Pinwall who already made good on the shaft I don't really need now. Got the hub for $40 shipped. I can get the gear for the final new for @$100 aas the rest all looks good. Ordered the O-rings, but forgot the thrust washer. I'll have to check on that next. Thanks, Dave

Dave I have a final that looks like yours I got off a triked bike. How hard is it to replace the splined peice in the final?

Sorry, I didn't answer sooner. The answer is, I don't know as I didn't tear in that far and now have a complete final on it's way to me and won't have to right now. (maybe down the road) cheapcycleparts.com has the final gear micro fiche showing the breakdown. Doesn't look that hard, but haven't done it to know what you'll run into. Wish I could be more help.

[hubcapsc]

I'm going to bow to the combined wisdom here and dive in. I just bought a 98 ct with 27K in it. I pick it up this weekend, but do not have  a manual  yet , what is the recommended service interval and grease type for the shaft and differental splines? Moly? synthetic blend? we'll be heading into winter soon so it would be a good time to give the bike a good going over before spring riding season is here.

There's a lot of information, and misinformation, out there... I'm about to replace my driveline, and
here's what I think at this point...

Per the manual:

   moly paste on final drive splines.

   moly grease at the pinion cup end (wheel end) of the drive shaft.

  regular grease at the universal end of the drive shaft.

Internet Knowledge I think is good:

  Don't glop tons of grease into the pinion cup, it'll clog up the holes which are there to allow
  gear oil to circulate through the pinion cup. Oil isn't lost from the final drive, the seal at the
  pinion cup prevents that. The two holes in the pinion cup are different, one is made so that
  oil flows into the pinion cup, the other facilitates it flowing back into the final drive.

Internet Knowledge I think is bad:

  pack lots of heavy grease into the pinion cup, make sure you clog the holes (?)

I don't have a grease-scale  but the manual says how much grease to
put on each end:

  pack 0.5 grams of grease onto the [universal joint] splines.

  pack 2 grams of molybdenum disulfide grease into the pinion joint [pinion cup] spline.

-Mike

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Mike, I think he was wondering about how hard it would be to dismantle the final assembly to replace that gear that connects to the hub on the rear wheel.

What you state though sounds good and makes sense as Honda sells that Molly paste in a little 3 oz tube, so they don't expect you to goop it full. Dave

[Black Dog]

Mike, I think he was wondering about how hard it would be to dismantle the final assembly to replace that gear that connects to the hub on the rear wheel.

It can be done, but for a price...  Bill (Big BF)

http://bigbf.com/

will do it, but his price varies depending on what is needed to rebuild the hub.  I had emailed him a few months ago, and was quoted something north of $400, depending on what was needed.  I got lucky and scored one from PinWall, that looks like new inside, for half of that 

Black Dog

[TearlessTom]

What kind of idiot would never downshift a Valk and listen to the sweet sound of the engine and pipes rolling down thru the gears?

You won't wear out splines downshifting, I don't even usually use the clutch, pop the throttle and drop it a gear. VVVOOOMMMMmmmmm, VRRMMMMmmmm. Poor maintenance and miles wears out the splines.

I love my Valk sounds. I hope you enjoy listening to your brakes.

Raymond

+1  hoser

+2   
Tom

[RLD]

Probably the kind of idiot that has a good flowing weep hole in the pinion cup and lots of oil in the rear end.

You lose an oring and now you see what happens to the hub splines. I've had Honda brand orings fail in under 5,000 miles. Others have lasted fine for 15,000. I replace all of them every time.

Raymond

+1

A properly working weep hole will do EXACTLY what you're seeing, the splines have probably never been lubed at all from the way it looks. My opinion, as always, based on personal experience with weep hole problems.

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Probably the kind of idiot that has a good flowing weep hole in the pinion cup and lots of oil in the rear end.

You lose an oring and now you see what happens to the hub splines. I've had Honda brand orings fail in under 5,000 miles. Others have lasted fine for 15,000. I replace all of them every time.

Raymond

+1

A properly working weep hole will do EXACTLY what you're seeing, the splines have probably never been lubed at all from the way it looks. My opinion, as always, based on personal experience with weep hole problems.

  I thought that was the point I was making. That the Previous owner neglected the hub splines.   

[Hoser]

You made your point very well, I got a chuckle out of the downshifting caused the problem solution,  though. hoser 

[SPOFF]

I think "idiot" probably applies to a lot of unknowing riders due to their particular riding style. 

Nonsense. The ground up splines are mostly from not loosening the four nuts on the rear drive before reassembly. The rust is from riding in rain. If you don't replace all three o-rings EVERY 10,000 miles, rain will wash the grease out. In short, you have to go back to the Chevy Vega to find a more PISS POOR design than a Valkyrie rear end. I know this because my V-Max has 50% more power, the wheel splines are half the size of my Valk, yet I never even bother to grease them. And they don't rust and don't wear. Even the rubber belt on a Harley goes more than 10,000 miles without an adjustment.

Maintenance free shaft drive --- pfft! 

[Ricky-D]

I agree!   
All the taste of fluff without a hint of cognition.

The ground up splines are mostly from not loosening the four nuts on the rear drive before reassembly.

Seems like there are more than just four!

[Madmike]

"""That slop combined with a rider that is constantly downshifting through the gears using the motor as a brake (as taught by a lot of motorcycle rider teachers) will surely result in what you see on those splines. Slapping those splines back and forth is not a harmless riding style and is not applicable anymore to motorcycle riding and cruising.""""


interesting concept..... I started typing a reply but on second thought it just ain't worth it........ ride on.......

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Actually the lossening of the 4 final drive bolts until everything else is buttoned up is so the drive shaft seats/lines up properly with the u-joint and has nothing to do with the final drive and hub lining up. And as far as leaving that hub unlubed/dry,You can do what you want, but the manual specifically calls for molly 60 paste there. I'd say they know what there talking about as they designed the bike and all. But that's just my opinion. 

[Valker]

Sorry for the slight hijack, but I have seen two posts recently that say motorcycle safety teachers advocate downshifting instead of braking or in addition to it. That is NOT part of the most used (MSF) program. As a matter of fact, almost all of their stopping exercises tell the student to not release the clutch after downshifting.
I am not sure how this one got started, but it is NOT part of the program.

[alph]

I usually pull in the clutch, shift all the way to neutral, then coast to a stop.

As for that spline, it obviously didn’t get any lube, or the three O rings were neglected and the lube was washed out in the rain.  If the O rings are damaged when the wheel is installed that grease will heat up and run out in no time at all then with just a little rain or moisture your spline is toast.

This makes me concerned about putting a car tire on my bike.  Maybe it’s a good thing to have to replace my back tire every 6000 miles, then you have to inspect your spline!!

[hubcapsc]

Sorry for the slight hijack, but I have seen two posts recently that say motorcycle safety teachers advocate downshifting instead of braking or in addition to it. That is NOT part of the most used (MSF) program. As a matter of fact, almost all of their stopping exercises tell the student to not release the clutch after downshifting.
I am not sure how this one got started, but it is NOT part of the program.

I took the MSF at Anderson SC about three years ago... they certainly wanted you to be in
first-gear/clutch-in when you get stopped...

-Mike

[Blackduck]

Interesting.
How does rain get into the hub splines? When riding centrifugal force will throw the rain off.
May get a little vacuum/suction if the hub is hot when running into rain and cooling the hub.
Think most of this is incorrect lube and incorrect assembly. Have never used moly paste and show no signs of wear.
Use Castrol LMM on all splines and hubs and they always look good. On my second Valk with 40K miles on this one.
Cheers Blackduck

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Interesting.
How does rain get into the hub splines? When riding centrifugal force will throw the rain off.
May get a little vacuum/suction if the hub is hot when running into rain and cooling the hub.
Think most of this is incorrect lube and incorrect assembly. Have never used moly paste and show no signs of wear.
Use Castrol LMM on all splines and hubs and they always look good. On my second Valk with 40K miles on this one.
Cheers Blackduck

I agree with you about the lack of maintenance being the issue. If you keep a check on it regularly/as needed you probably could get by with another grease. Honda manual calls for Moly paste there, so trhat's what I used. Glad you've had good success. This could end up another which oil is best thread/war. Bottom line is regular intervals to inspect and relube regardless of what you use.