Clutch troubles... Flat tire issues go on

[BradValk48237]

Hey All...

As I posted on the General board, I had a flat... 60 to 0 with the bike shaking like a dog S%$ting razor blades... Super High Pucker factor.  Once I got it stopped, was shaking too.. and bit panicked as I was in traffic On route 3 just south of Muncie....

Long story short, to quickly get off the road to a parking lot 30 feet ahead I bashed on the gear shift and feathered the clutch HARD (thinking the Tire was hanging up.. and not quite in my right mind) to get off the road. Ill bet I had it in at least 3rd gear, but didn't think about it, just wanted to get the hell off the road... so in doing so i probably spun the clutch out.... after the tire was fixed, I babied it back home as not sure on the plug holding.. so didn't notice anything until on the highway, just before my exit, was in 5th gear and hit the throttle hard and the Tach spun right up ... Whirrrrrr!!! Sh%t.. what now????

Took the bike out yesterday, and the clutch is definitely slipping in high gear when you hit the throttle....

Dont notice it in lower gears, but it is definitely slipping if you over throttle...

SO heres the question... only have a few more rides in the season... do I just nurse it along until the season is over in a coupe of months and go way on it...no drag racing, burnouts, etc???? Or am i on thin ice that it will just quit all of the sudden and leave me on the side of the road with a 800 lb lump of metal?
I was also going to nurse the plugged tire along also

I will fix it myself, so I need to know what parts to order right now, as I am going to also change the plugged tire ( I got 15000 out of it-car tire- but it is getting down there) and do the rear brakes at the same time and I only want to pull the whole thing apart once if possible.

So once again, what do I need in the way of parts and tools... I have seen postings on how to on here and am re-looking at them....

Or should I just finish the season and make it a winter project?

Thoughts?

B

[Paladin528]

a slipping clutch will only get worse.  The problem will get worse as well.  Just because you don't "Notice" it in lower gears does not mean there is no slippage.  If it were me I would pull your tire and do your brakes and also pull the clutch and see what you are dealing with before you order the whole mess.

[Moonshot_1]

Dude, fix the clutch and replace the tire. You don't want to need to grab a handful of throttle to miss a truck and have a whole lotta nothing. And you'll always wonder if it'll crap out on ya. Not a fun way to ride.

[flash2002]

Maybe before you take everything apart, make sure all the hydraulic are in good shape. Sometimes the oil return in the master can  cause this problem or the cylinder slave. When was the last time you flush the master, might be dirt in there.

[Momz]

Brad, I had a similar issue on one of my Valks, and the problem was in the slave cylinder seals.
It was a cheap and easy fix.

[gordonv]

I can't see how doing this once will cause the clutch to burn out. I would be more inclined to look for other (as started, the slave) issues.

How about the lever? Is it binding, bent something or?

I would call it quits for the year, and figure it will be a long repair (or a couple of very long days). Like you mentioned, you could be stranded somewhere. But 15K from a CT doesn't sound like much, you don't like a plugged tire to ride on? How much more life out of it, and how far do you ride in a year or 2.

[wiggydotcom]

What happens when you hit the throttle hard in the lower gears? If your rivets are letting go on your damper plate, your spacers between the plates will spin around and bunch up and your clutch lever will not come all the way to the handlebar when you pull it in.

If and when that happens, you could screw up your clutch basket by continuing to ride it.

[BradValk48237]

Thanks for the input so far...

The slave cylinder in the back was lubed and serviced last year,,, fluids also..

The clutch lever pulls smooth in and out, no hesitation or binding.. tested not the problem..

I think this has been building for s while as I seem to be loosing "Umph".... re built the carbs last year which seemed to help, but has been feeling sluggish for a while..

One thing I was thinking this has been going on for a bit is that a few weeks ago I was Drag racing Dad and I thought I hit the rev limited, but more likely it was slipping then. has seemed to lose pull in the higher gears... but looking back might have been going before... I just pushed it further with the flat...

So  going forward... probably going to order the plates- friction and Damper.... gasket.... As its over $300 in parts.. unless there is some things I can reuse.... but Id rather do it right than to have to do it again anytime soon...

Don't plan on pulling the basket, just the stack and putting in new guts......

So more info would be great... I saw some previous pots about the clutch and parts to order, but a definite list would be great....

So any more info would be cool.....

Probably going to stick with the Falken... just prefer to have a solid tire.. If I have to take it off the rim to finish patching, might as well just replace.....

Thanks all .. any help is always great and it won't happen till I have the parts on the way or here.

B

[Valkpilot]

Aside from rivets in the damper plate coming apart, it's rare for a clutch to fail on these bikes.  Even the rivets coming apart is relatively uncommon.

It's hard to burn plates in a wet clutch and the rivet problem manifests itself (as mentioned) by other means than slipping.

Per the other posts, make sure the hydraulics are good, but I think you should also check the pinion joint at the rear drive.

If you're determined to rebuild the clutch, the parts list is in this thread: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,20870.0.html

[2manywings]

I agree with Valkpilot completely. These things are pretty bullitproof and clutch replacement is rare. You really need to start with the simple stuff first. I would definitely go through the hydraulics "completely" first. I see a lot of slave cylinder pistons that bind in their bore and will not allow for total travel. Even if a person is changing the fluid as recommended (which VERY few actually do) , you will still get some sludge build-up in the bottom of the cylinder. If you look at the slave, the fluid  comes in at the top, and the bleeder is designed to take air from the top. So when you change the fluid and bleed the system, are you really removing everything from the slave... I doubt it. Another question, is what type of motor oil are you running? These bikes are big and heavy and in some cases I see this happening when some of these "Super Slippery" oils are used. Clutches and friction modifiers (used in many motor oils) don't always get along. Check the simple things FIRST...  KISS (Keep It Simple Silly) (being polite).
I work on Goldwings for a living, and they typically see much more abuse than the average Valkyrie, with the extreme weights that they are asked to carry. Many of my customers have hundreds of thousands of mile on the original clutched with no issues. So as stated in the beginning... A clutch failure is rare.    Good luck and keep us posted.

[BradValk48237]

Thanks Valkpilot and 2 Many....

Like you said those were the first things i checked.... I REALLY don't want to do the clutch... Or spend the money..LOL

The lever moves all the way in and out and I feel no binding.... I replaced the bushing couple of years ago too.

The fluid is full and still not brown.....

In the lower gears the bike feels sluggish, in 3-5 if you twist the throttle it slips......

Understand that these clutches are rare for failure- personally had an 85 wing for 125K and never had an issue.. But looking on here they do happen, and I bought the bike used so I don't know how it was treated as I bought it from a 3rd party dealer.

BUUUTTT... all signs are pointing to issues inside... And as I said when I was trying to get off the road with the bike, I believe I had the clutch all the way out and raving at 3500 on the tach and the bike wasn't moving- thinking it was the tire..... so some abuse was had. Lets just say at the time the adrenaline was pumping.

Im going to take it out today and see how it feels and then put it on the lift and pul the slave to make sure ... but things don't look and feel good.

B

[IamGCW]

Like stated before, if you used oil with "friction modifiers" it can and will cause clutch slippage.  Any chance you changed your oil recently? 


Gil

[BradValk48237]

Same Oil I have used in my wings and this bike since day one.... I have been around Hondas since my Dad bought his first one in 1969.... my first wing was 1990

Valvoline 20w50 Dino oil... no friction modifiers....... I also change the oil between 2500 and 3500..... depending on time and milage.....  So yes the oil was changed 1300 miles ago..... And I change the filter every time...... but pretty sure oil is not the problem in this case.....lol

Maint on this bike is done on regular basis.. pumpkin pulled every year re guard less of milage, Rear end oil changed every year.... clutch and brake changed every other season in the 6 years I've had it.

Last spring the splines, pinion cup, and shaft were all still covered in grease no rust (cleaned and re greased).... no rattles or vibrations from the motor back.... no grinding or noise from back there...

Only thing I have not checked in a while is the u joint. But nothing noticeable from that area.... I do have a new one in the saddle bag.. along with a new pinion cup and shaft.... Just in case. 

B

[Tfrank59]

If it were me I'd pull the bike in the shop for the season and get all the work done right. Probably also a good idea just to go over the whole bike after a situation like that where you basically soiled yourself  . Have to get the back-up bike out for the rest of this season.

[2manywings]

It sounds like your covering the bases pretty thoroughly, and a clutch job may be in your near future.
It's been a few years since I've done a Valkyrie clutch job but I don't remember it being that bad of a job. The one thing I do remember wishing I had done differently was my choice of a clutch diaphragm spring. I used all Barnett components, but their "heavy duty" diaphragm spring was a bit to stiff, making for an "armstrong clutch lever".  Good luck!

[Ricky-D]

I do not believe there is a way to change out the clutch discs without removing the clutch completely from the engine.

***

[csj]

Thought i'd add a tidbit. I tried 20W50 Dino oil a few years ago. I noticed that when the bike was cold (first ten minutes running), the clutch was slipping. As bike got warmed up, slipping stopped. I have, since then gone to 15W50 Semi Synthetic, no more slipping at any temp.

[BradValk48237]

Ricky,

 I will be taking out the clutch to the basket... as I read on here to get the basket out you need a big ass socket and an a decent impact wrench..... which I don't have.....

Many of the post here look like they just take out the stack and rebuild it, leaving the basket on the bike..

Buuuut.... Im wondering-  if Im already in there if it would be good to replace the main bearing as I would be almost all ready there..... plus I rarely turn down a chance to buy new tools...LOL

Still looking at options

B

[wiggydotcom]

Brad,
Ricky is right in that you have to pull the clutch pack from the basket to see what's really going on-and to change out any worn/broken parts.
The hard part about a clutch job is removing all the other stuff to get to it. In my case, that included not only the kickstand bracket but my Rivo Center Stand. I think I also pulled my gas tank, although not required to, it made it easier to access some of the MANY clutch cover bolts.
It does help to have a way to hold the clutch pack in place while spinning off the inner nut. A machine repairman and I made a setup at work that worked very well. Others have had success just hitting the nut with an impact wrench.

IF your clutch is the culprit, it will most likely be because the damper plate failed as I said in my earlier reply.
Here are some pics that might help you visualize what can go wrong.
This is what a bad clutch pack looks like removed from the basket. Btw, there is no reason to remove your basket unless it's all scored up from rivets/spacers being thrown around in there. When the rivets of the damper plate let go, all the spacers bunch up on one side. Not only will this make your clutch slip, but your clutch pack will become thicker and becomes the reason why your clutch lever will eventually not pull back fully to the handlebar.


Here is a pic of the damper plate, spacers, and broken rivets out of the pack. If you pull your clutch, make sure you find all the broken rivet parts and don't leave any in your basket.


I was able to buy an entire clutch for 85 bucks off of Ebay. So all I had to do was change out my pack and I was good to go.
I then decided to take my bad clutch to work(where we have a press) and I screwed up. I was pressing on the clutch spring with a socket in order to relieve pressure on the snap ring that holds the pack together. I made the mistake of selecting too large of a socket and instead of just compressing the inner part of the spring, I also cracked my clutch pressure plate by pushing on the outer part of the spring also and rendered it junk. I might still buy a new pressure plate at some point but totaled the bike 2 weeks after swapping the clutch out so I don't really "need" the bad pack anymore.
Here's a pic of the clutch spring removed===and the cracked pressure plate. You can see the hairline crack starting at the 10:00 position and going all the way around to the 2:00 position.


If it is just your damper plate as the main culprit, I believe it's called plate B in the fiche.
PLATE B, CLUTCH 22322-MZ0-000
If you were going to order parts, you might also want to order the plates on either side of it also and you might be good to go. I personally wouldn't order parts ahead of time until you find out just what you need.

I hope this helps a little in case you do have to tackle this job.

[blotar]

+1 on waiting to buy parts. When my damper rivets let go the operability of the clutch soon deteriorated until i had a hard time finding neutral. at the very least, if you suspect an internal problem with the clutch do purchase a clutch cover gasket. If you are very careful pulling/tapping the cover off of the location pins you may be able to save the old gasket, but I wouldn't count on it. All those nasty little rivets will be lying on the bottom of the housing. I measured the thickness of my clutch plates and they were within .001" of new so I only purchased the two plates on either side of the damper and the damper of course. The tools to disassemble and reassemble had to be hand made from stuff lying around the shop and had me buffaloed for several days, but it is all very doable from your workbench in the garage. Good Luck
Blotar

[Skinhead]

Ricky,

 I will be taking out the clutch to the basket... as I read on here to get the basket out you need a big ass socket and an a decent impact wrench..... which I don't have.....

Many of the post here look like they just take out the stack and rebuild it, leaving the basket on the bike..

Buuuut.... Im wondering-  if Im already in there if it would be good to replace the main bearing as I would be almost all ready there..... plus I rarely turn down a chance to buy new tools...LOL

Still looking at options

B

Brad,

I have some tools I can loan you, not sure what size socket you need, but for a one time use, if I don't have it, harbor freight might.  I believe I have up to 1 3/8??

[gordonv]

I also believe someone lost one of those locating pins for the rear cover, and the cover wouldn't work until he replaced it. Sealing I think, and/or alignment also.

[BradValk48237]

Thanks Joe...

If I need something I will take you up on it..... Probably a tire change too... 

Im still riding it (easily) because its been to nice not to...... Im gonna baby it for the next month or so and at least enjoy it...... Besides I have 100+ miles of Roadservice if it does puke on me...

Its not making any funny noises.. just slipping..... and only noticeable if I horse on it.

But once the weather putters out its going up on the lift......

B

[PSUbag]

If your rivets are busting off, make SURE you get a new clutch spring too. I only replaced the plate with the rivets and thought it was fixed. Ran great thru the gears until 5th, when it would slip again.    Took it apart and replaced the clutch spring (looks like a washer?) and it was good as new. (Damper plate went at around 100,000 miles.)

[Rio Wil]

This really smells like the clutch is slipping due to slick stuff (new tech term) on the clutch plate surfaces. I was running M1 20-50 for about a 100K and the clutch started to slip, especially in 4 gear.....changed to Shell Rotella T 15-40 for the last 80K miles and after about 2000 miles the slipping stopped and is solid as can be now. Total mileage on the bike is 225K now. If you are going to baby it and drive for a while.....thy the Rotella....can't hurt anything.

[El Borrego]

The clutch on my '99 went out a few months ago.  When they pulled it apart, some of the brass rivets were not there.  So hoping they were in the oil filter.  Flushed it, put new oil and filter and haven't had any issues.  If you think it's the clutch I would not run it if those brads have come out and have not been picked up by the oil filter.  Could be really costly with that brad floating around in there.

[Tfrank59]

Yeah, loose rivets floating around in your oil is a formula for catastrophic disaster.  Don't be that guy.

[Ricky-D]

Previously it has bee reported by people doing such work, that there is a common passage at the bottom for the oil to move between the clutch area and the

engine crankcase. It has also been said the passage is small and there is a screen to prevent passage of contamination from one area to the other.

Still there has been reports of oiling problems from this passage being blocked with debris from torn up clutch parts.

So the concern that broken rivet parts getting into the crankcase area is overblown.

The big concern would be to a blocked passage as aforementioned.

***

[wiggydotcom]

Previously it has bee reported by people doing such work, that there is a common passage at the bottom for the oil to move between the clutch area and the

engine crankcase. It has also been said the passage is small and there is a screen to prevent passage of contamination from one area to the other.

Still there has been reports of oiling problems from this passage being blocked with debris from torn up clutch parts.

So the concern that broken rivet parts getting into the crankcase area is overblown.

The big concern would be to a blocked passage as aforementioned.

***

I'd agree with this. The biggest concern about pieces I've heard would be that they could score uo the basket. I'm not exactly sure how that would directly hurt but I subscribe to the theory the sooner it's looked at the better. That was the approach I took when mine went south.

[Rio Wil]

Hasn't it been true that in all cases when the rivets come loose that it changes the operation of the clutch lever.  It is no longer smooth nor can the lever be pulled in full travel  as when operating correctly. 

[wiggydotcom]

Hasn't it been true that in all cases when the rivets come loose that it changes the operation of the clutch lever.  It is no longer smooth nor can the lever be pulled in full travel  as when operating correctly. 

Yes, in two ways. The damper plate no longer works the way it's suppose to as it no longer sits flat with max surface against the plates on each side of it.

The clutch lever at some point won't pull all the way back anymore because all of the shims are stacked up in one spot. Did you happen to see the pics I posted earlier in this same thread. You'll see what I'm trying to describe.

[Valkpilot]

Hasn't it been true that in all cases when the rivets come loose that it changes the operation of the clutch lever.  It is no longer smooth nor can the lever be pulled in full travel  as when operating correctly. 

Yes, in two ways. The damper plate no longer works the way it's suppose to as it no longer sits flat with max surface against the plates on each side of it.

The clutch lever at some point won't pull all the way back anymore because all of the shims are stacked up in one spot. Did you happen to see the pics I posted earlier in this same thread. You'll see what I'm trying to describe.

The clutch lever movement may be intermittent as the rivets give way, get stuck, and work their way loose.  Same for the shims.

Worst case scenario is that enough rivets give way so that one or more of the spring shims are completely loose. 

[Rio Wil]

The point being ValkPilot has not complained at all about the clutch lever being erratic or catching or anything unusual. Makes me think he (for want of anything else) might have "glazed" the clutch fiber disks when he was rev'ing/slipping the clutch to get off the road.  Changing to a different oil and maybe a lighter oil would be beneficial........easy enough to try and might save a tear down......

[The emperor has no clothes]

The point being ValkPilot has not complained at all about the clutch lever being erratic or catching or anything unusual. Makes me think he (for want of anything else) might have "glazed" the clutch fiber disks when he was rev'ing/slipping the clutch to get off the road.  Changing to a different oil and maybe a lighter oil would be beneficial........easy enough to try and might save a tear down......

I think you mean Brad the OP. 

[Rio Wil]

 
OOPS

[Valkpilot]

The point being ValkPilot has not complained at all about the clutch lever being erratic or catching or anything unusual. Makes me think he (for want of anything else) might have "glazed" the clutch fiber disks when he was rev'ing/slipping the clutch to get off the road.  Changing to a different oil and maybe a lighter oil would be beneficial........easy enough to try and might save a tear down......

I get it.  See my original post in this thread.

However, MANY were focusing on the potential rivet failure and I thought some clarification was needed.

[BradValk48237]

Thanks All...


Going to try to change the oil and see what happens......  Keep it Simple... Stooopid...lol

If it works.. so much the better.. If not....  then plan C.. Clutch

B