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Author Topic: Starter fail - hope I have not joined the hydro club  (Read 1611 times)
pago cruiser
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*****
Posts: 534


Tucson - Its a dry heat


« on: October 31, 2015, 10:26:22 PM »

Crap.
Went to talk the sidecar into work today.  Have not ridden it in about three weeks.
Geared up, gas on, choke on, key on, hit the starter, spin, spin, slow, slow, (thinking I have to check the battery age), then wheee!

No clank, no BRAKKK!, no weird mech noise.  Just seemed to disengage, then freewheel. Crap.

Bike has 40k.  New Honda petcock, maybe 6 months ago.  Gas was off during the last three weeks.  Carb rebuild 2 months ago.  Took it to the Griffith Park Sidecar rally, and it ran flawless.  Now this.  Crap.

Got a hard time believing a hydro.  Is there a common failure mode on the starter?  A search only turned up that it can't fail in bendix type mode...

Working 70 hours/week again  tickedoff, so no time to wrench for a few more weeks.  But I'll gladly take ideas...
Crap.
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Just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you
Michvalk
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Posts: 2002


Remus, Mi


« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2015, 01:40:00 AM »

Probably not hydrolock. I would think that the battery don't have enough juice to turn the starter fast enough to stay engaged. They will kick out and just spin with low voltage. Pull the plugs and spin the motor (outside). If there is fuel in the cylinders, Fuel will spray out. You may need a new battery, or a good charging. cooldude
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FLAVALK
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Posts: 2699


Winter Springs, Florida


« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2015, 04:32:45 AM »

Does not sound like hydro lock which is a nasty sound when it does happen  Shocked
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Live From Sunny Winter Springs Florida via Huntsville Alabama
pago cruiser
Member
*****
Posts: 534


Tucson - Its a dry heat


« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2015, 08:50:45 AM »

Thanks guys.

"They will kick out and just spin with low voltage." - That I did not know. 

"Does not sound like hydro lock which is a nasty sound when it does happen" - That I have gleaned - just had a hard time accepting a hydro issue when I have done everything possible to avoid it.   

When I purchase a bike, one of the first things I do is replace battery and starting relay.  On this one, the wife asked "Why do you always do that?  Seems like a waste of money".

It gives me no pleasure (well, maybe a little  :evil:to use my typical retort - "Cause everytime I try to save money on something it comes back to bite me in the a$$." 

That said, could not ask for a better place to have a battery failure than my driveway.

Thanks again.  I'll post a follow-up once I get a few hours off in daylight to turn some wrenches.
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Ricky-D
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Posts: 5031


South Carolina midlands


« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2015, 10:06:45 AM »

Thanks guys.

"They will kick out and just spin with low voltage." - That I did not know. 

"Does not sound like hydro lock which is a nasty sound when it does happen" - That I have gleaned - just had a hard time accepting a hydro issue when I have done everything possible to avoid it.   

When I purchase a bike, one of the first things I do is replace battery and starting relay.  On this one, the wife asked "Why do you always do that?  Seems like a waste of money".

It gives me no pleasure (well, maybe a little  :evil:to use my typical retort - "Cause everytime I try to save money on something it comes back to bite me in the a$$." 

That said, could not ask for a better place to have a battery failure than my driveway.

Thanks again.  I'll post a follow-up once I get a few hours off in daylight to turn some wrenches.

That's because it is not true.  The starter clutch on the Valkyrie is a overrunning clutch starter drive, which means any time you energize the starter motor it will be trying to start the engine.

If your starter motor is turning and the engine is not, the problem is with the starter clutch assembly, or more likely there are teeth missing in the starter drive gear train and it is sitting in the void. (Normally a result of a hydrolock experience.)

The Valkyrie starter clutch assembly is very reliable and there have been extremely few problems reported with this system.

***
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
Marinakorp
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Posts: 225


King of Prussia, PA


« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2015, 02:36:35 PM »

Check the connections at the battery.

if you can jump it... ot push start... then replace battery
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I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
pago cruiser
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Posts: 534


Tucson - Its a dry heat


« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2015, 11:36:25 AM »

Finally got a day off from work to do some bike wrenching.

First I charged the battery, pulled the plugs, rocked the bike back and forth a bit, then maybe 2 feet forward - thinking that if it broke a gear, it should put the drive gear on a good spot.  The engine resisted movement about as expected; no strange noises.  Hit the starter...
wheeeeeeeeeee. 
Same as I left it a few weeks ago; the starter spins fast, no turning over the engine.

Pulled the starter.  What a 2 hour pita that was...

Good news - ain't nothing obviously broken:



Not so good news: so what the heck is it?  Have not found one thread on a starter failure per-se.  Guess I'll pull the starter apart next; maybe hit it with 12V before taking apart.  Gear splines look good, both on the driven gear and the starter.  Tried to turn the starter by hand, and I can't rotate it.  Picked up a spare starter from a forum member, but seems I left it at work, where I have my parts delivered.  Sigh.

Time for lunch and a cold adult beverage.  Any ideas? 
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gordonv
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Posts: 5762


VRCC # 31419

Richmond BC


« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2015, 11:46:07 AM »

I know there was a post which I saw a LONG time ago about how-to overhaul the starter. But like you said, there isn't much need for it.
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1999 Black with custom paint IS

Grumpy
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Posts: 3106


Tampa, Fl


« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2015, 01:38:04 PM »

There is a planetary gear reduction in the starter, possibly it has failed. If so best choice is another starter.
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Life is like a hot bath. It feels good while you’re in it, but the longer you stay in, the more wrinkled you get.
The emperor has no clothes
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Posts: 29945


« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2015, 05:04:25 PM »

Finally got a day off from work to do some bike wrenching.

First I charged the battery, pulled the plugs, rocked the bike back and forth a bit, then maybe 2 feet forward - thinking that if it broke a gear, it should put the drive gear on a good spot.  The engine resisted movement about as expected; no strange noises.  Hit the starter...
wheeeeeeeeeee. 
Same as I left it a few weeks ago; the starter spins fast, no turning over the engine.

Pulled the starter.  What a 2 hour pita that was...

Good news - ain't nothing obviously broken:



Not so good news: so what the heck is it?  Have not found one thread on a starter failure per-se.  Guess I'll pull the starter apart next; maybe hit it with 12V before taking apart.  Gear splines look good, both on the driven gear and the starter.  Tried to turn the starter by hand, and I can't rotate it.  Picked up a spare starter from a forum member, but seems I left it at work, where I have my parts delivered.  Sigh.

Time for lunch and a cold adult beverage.  Any ideas? 
In-N-Out and a nice cold Molson Golden ? Oh.... You mean ideas about the starter. Try the starter you have as a spare. That was pretty clairvoyant knowing you were going to need it.  2funny
Glad you didn't have a hydrolock.  cooldude
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Firefighter
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Posts: 1165


Harlingen, Texas


« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2015, 05:49:44 PM »

Honda manual says its a faulty starter clutch, or damaged or faulty starter motor gears. Let us know what you find.
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2000 Valkyrie Interstate, Black/Red
2006 Honda Sabre 1100
2013 Honda Spirit 750
2002 Honda Rebel 250
1978 Honda 750
pago cruiser
Member
*****
Posts: 534


Tucson - Its a dry heat


« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2015, 07:45:53 PM »

Funny guy - wish I was clairvoyant -  would make riding to work a lot easier knowing what stupid driving trick the cagers are gonna pull next.  Good idea on the Molson though... Grin  I picked up the starter as I was just playing the odds - as I had a new fuel valve, and had just rebuilt the carbs, and I test the fricken valve every time I ride the bike, I refused to believe a hydro could occur.

Powered up the starter sitting on a bench ,and it spun right up.  WTF?
Took it apart, and aside from the center gear teeth looking a little razor edged (not blunt) , could not find anything obviously amiss:



the planetary set looked ok as well:



Maybe the tolerance is off between the center gear teeth and the planetary?  Yhey sure do not look like a matched pair.

Did not want to ride into work (50 miles one way) and get the spare starter I bought; so as trying to remember where I put the duct tape (to cover the empty starter hole), I remembered that I bought an F6B starter as well - this is for the "Magnum Valk" (GL1800 motor in a Valk frame) project I am working on.  I needed a starter a bit shorter than the 2003 1800 starter to minimize cutting a frame member, and the pics on ebay looked a bit shorter - it was, by 1/2".  Turns out, it is also a perfect match for the Valk starter, and a full 3/4" shorter as well:





Bolted it in (note that it also went in a lot easier than the Valk starter came out), hooked it up, hit the starter... nuttin.

 crazy2

Then after checking half a dozen things, I had the sense to look close at the tip-over switch.  It has a nice arrow on it.  and a word - UP.  Had to take it off the center panel in order to remove the center panel, in order to pull the starter...then just placed it in the general vicinity, upside down... Embarrassed

Straightened that out,  hit the starter, crank, crank, crank, (it's been 4 weeks now), crank.... VROOM!   cooldude

BTSOM why the original starter motor turns, but cannot turn over the engine.  I am just so frickin glad I did not have to pull the engine to solve a hydro... 



 
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Ricky-D
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Posts: 5031


South Carolina midlands


« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2015, 06:32:02 AM »

If disassembled you will find the clutch mechanism within the large end you removed from the

motor assembly. It lays between the planetary gear assembly and the output shaft that you

see, which is the shaft that inserts into the motor gear.

***
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
pago cruiser
Member
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Posts: 534


Tucson - Its a dry heat


« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2015, 12:48:28 PM »

So is it possible for the output shaft to turn while sitting (unloaded) on a bench, but once bolted up to the engine, just the motor turns, with no output rotation?

It would appear so, based upon my observations...  thanks for the heads up; I'll pull it apart further and see what happened.  Although it's more of an academic question now...
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