Problem with the front brakes on the 1200.

[John Schmidt]

I can't get any brake action from the m/c and it's driving me crazy. I know.....short trip. It's a rebuilt Valk m/c on both sides, the clutch works fine. So, after replacing the guts on it(twice), I've tried bleeding the system to no avail. I've gone through 1 1/2 qts. and it's unchanged. The connections are tight, any tighter and they'll strip threads. I'm at a loss as to my next step, any suggestions? 

[IamGCW]

John

It was good seeing you at the pizza party.

I would try bleeding to the banjo at the location where the front calipers join to the single master. 

Maybe also try pushing fluid up from the caliper with a syringe.  (I am assuming you're using a mighty vac or similar.

Third maybe just open the bleeders and let gravity work the fluid, slow but it might do it.

Hope this helps.

Gil

[John Schmidt]

Not sure I follow the first suggestion. I have a single line from the m/c to a "T" mounted on the bottom tree. From the tee I have a single line to each caliper. The only place I have a banjo is at the m/c. It just seems like I can't get past air in the line, yet everything is tight. Wondering if one of the new lines might be bad, or possibly the m/c itself may have a problem. Really bugging me, I want to move on to something else to get frustrated over. 

[_Sheffjs_]

I remember rebuilding the Pistons on the fronts of the black I/S without a MV and hand pumping the lever for about 1.5 hours.  Yes I was quite happy when it finally worked as I really wanted to ride. 

[Flrider]

John. How about disconnecting both calipers from the forks and tie them up in the air so that air pocket will flow to the calipers and then blled them while still up.  Something like Pappy suggests but letting the air flow the caliper way instead of the reservoir way.  
You can leave them hanging overnight.
Just thinking of different ways to get it done.
I have done the front brakes before but have not had to go through too much bleeding.

Hope you get it solved soon, if.someone can that would be you. Keep.us posted.

[IamGCW]

Not sure I follow the first suggestion. I have a single line from the m/c to a "T" mounted on the bottom tree.

That is where I would open it.  Guess the 1200 has a "hard T" rather than a Banjo nut/flex lines.  But in either case release the pressure there (caution on dripping fluid).  Bubbles trapped at the T can be a pain to purge.  Sometimes the syringe pushing fluid back will release the bubble.

Gil

[OnaWingandaPrayer]

one thing mentioned all the time on the Goldwing boards is to pull the lever in like halfway , then tie it in that position overnight . They seem to think it helps the air move to the top by itself .

 Personally I use a pressure bleeder I built . Never had any luck with a mighty vac .

[John Schmidt]

One thing I did't explain....this isn't the OEM setup. OEM had split braking with one line coming from the rear m/c to the front. The front m/c only controlled one caliper. I got rid of the split braking, installed new SS lines throughout, front and rear. It didn't come with a tee, I added it to accommodate my conversion. I've never had a problem using the MV on bikes, but this time I can't even get enough oomph from the m/c to use speed bleeders so put the OEM bleeders back in for now.

I just left the shop and might have a better method for bleeding, using my air driven system which is better used on a car. Actually just about any vehicle with a large reservoir. I experimented and found if I reverse the attachment that goes in the reservoir, I can get the bottle that feeds it to sit on top. Might have to fasten it down to keep it from tipping over. You fill the bottle with fluid and up end it into the reservoir. The other piece of the set is a bottle that catches the fluid that is sucked out of the bleeder via an air hose attached to it. Looks a bit like a hand gun with a catch bottle attached. Before hitting it with air, you open the ball valve in the neck of the feeder bottle on the reservoir. As the fluid drops, it allows fluid to flow out thereby keeping the reservoir full. I'll try it tomorrow, will post results. It worked like a champ on Rita's Lexus when I completely flushed the brake system.

[FloridaValkRyder]

Post some pics John. If you had not shown me the device you speak of, I would have no idea what you mean. Might be helpful.

[John Schmidt]

OK, this is the doodad I was trying to describe, most of you have no doubt seen something similar. After sucking nearly a qt. through the system(again), I'm still getting air and no resistance on the handle. I'm about ready to toss all the parts involved, both rebuilt and new, and start all over.



By running the plastic feet up/down, you can adjust the level you want it to start refilling the reservoir. You open that little black knob after you set it in the reservoir and it will blip, blip, blip as the bottle allows fluid to replace that which has been displaced. Keeps you from having to keep checking the fluid level, does it automatically.


Normally, you can lock down the handle and let the air flow freely. Then just sit and watch the brake fluid pass through until you don't see any bubbles. Close the bleeder and move to the next one. This never stopped with the bubbles.

[Grumpy]

Some thing I have ran into a couple times is air being sucked in around the bleeder threads. The trick I used was to clean around the bleeder and with it open, put a little silicone around the outside of the bleeder and let it sit long enough to set up some.  That will stop the air from getting past the threads.
We had some low pressure stuff at the airport that had 28 foot runs on the lines, that was the best way we found to suck the fluid through, with out the silicone, it just sucked air around the threads. After you finish, just tighten the bleeder and the silicone will be pushed off.

[John Schmidt]

Bill, I wondered about that a couple times. While using the MityVac, I could wiggle the bleeder screw and the bubbles would change. I know the new Speed Bleeders come with a touch of locktite and are much more solid when in place. My RTV is no good so might try a bit of thread lock as an experiment. Worth a try anyway.

Well, using some thread lock at least got rid of the air bubbles. Problem still remains....I get nothing from the master cylinder. You can pump that handle like crazy and it doesn't change....no resistance at all. Guess I'll order a complete replacement m/c, hate the price though. Honda in Eustis will let me have it for $102, Service Honda $92, ProCaliber $80, some odd change on each but that's a huge difference in price. Tried to call ProCaliber to see what shipping would be since I won't be ordering over $99 for free shipping, can't get anyone to answer the phone. Guess I'll sleep on it for now.

[IamGCW]

John

I use yellow Teflon tape around the bleeders to stop the air leak.  I think it is what is used on gas pipes.  Works like a champ.

Any chance you have a known good master to could hook up temporarily and verify the issue is with the master?  Or use an old break line and loop the master output back into the reservoir and verify the flow.

I have that same bleeder setup from HF.  Works great when flushing the truck, reservoir does not need an attendant. 

Gil

[John Schmidt]

 Or use an old break line and loop the master output back into the reservoir and verify the flow.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yes, I have a couple new spare SS lines, I could use one of them for that. The other thing that bothered me about the m/c is if I pressed my thumb on the output side and squeezed the lever, there was little to no pressure felt against my thumb. There should be some pressure, when I removed my thumb there was no "spit" felt or heard. That doesn't seem right to me. Tomorrow I'll remove the line to the right caliper and feed it back to the reservoir, see if I get anything moving that way. I've never had this problem on any brakes I've worked on.....car, truck, bike, or plane. Has me so frustrated I'm about ready to start pulling TJ's hair out.   

[Grumpy]

Sounds like the master cyl is fubar, should not be able to hold the pressure with a finger when the lever is squeezed.  Perhaps is the tiny hole that the fluid flows down from the reservoir to the piston is plugged ? 

[John Schmidt]

Not plugged, I put an air hose to the output end and got the residue in the face so I know it's open. Gave it a shot of air from the inside out and had good airflow in that direction also. You'd think if the m/c is bad there would be evidence of leakage somewhere but there isn't. Only thing I can figure is the passage is worn too much and the plunger doesn't seal. I thought they came off my bike when I made the switch but remembered I sold the handlebars with them mounted....as a plug/play setup with the m/c's and controls polished like chrome. I think these came off the old bike I restored in early 2012, it had been in a shop that caught fire and it's possible this unit is distorted from the heat.....like most everything else was on the bike.

[Grumpy]

That sucks, I looked in my stash, nothing worth while there. I have one, but is corroded pretty bad. It is trash.

[TJ]

Since you're going to pull what little hair I have left , I won't tell you I have a used one that was
rebuilt and put away....   
VA tomorrow but I guess if you want it , let me know....  U old Fart......

[Pappy!]

Almost sounds like the actuator in the MC is stuck in the "plunge" position and not returning.

[John Schmidt]

Almost sounds like the actuator in the MC is stuck in the "plunge" position and not returning.

No, I can actually look into the small hole and watch the plunger move in/out as I squeeze the handle. It doesn't put out enough pressure to even use speed bleeders. New m/c ordered but will continue to experiment over the next week until it arrives.

[Valkahuna]

I just chased brake problems on my 66 Mercury Cyclone for a couple of weeks. Ended up being a bad Master cylinder that had some weird failure of the plunger that squirted fluid up in the mc instead of putting the full amount out into the brake lines. Also made bleeding tough, plus once I finally got them bled, the brakes were weak on the wheel furthest away from the mc. Drove me nuts to the point that I sold the car rather than trucking it down here and having to find storage for it.    ??? 

[Pappy!]

Almost sounds like the actuator in the MC is stuck in the "plunge" position and not returning.

No, I can actually look into the small hole and watch the plunger move in/out as I squeeze the handle. It doesn't put out enough pressure to even use speed bleeders. New m/c ordered but will continue to experiment over the next week until it arrives.

Okay, if it is moving then it is by-passing fluid back and forth. Missing or failed seal......