seeking needles expert advice

[Black Sled]

Has anyone compared the performance of the Factory Pro vs the Cobra needles? 

My 2000 Tourer has Cobra 6-6 pipes, 38 slows and stock mains.   Also K&N w/prefilter.  I currently have Factory Pro needles (set 4 notches down) and I/S Carb springs.  May be a little rich, but pretty close. 

I have a set of Cobra needles and springs and am wondering if these would be a better choice with this setup?  I wonder how much research (dyno runs, etc) Cobra did before putting these on the market - supposedly they are intended for use with the 6-6 pipes?  Same question goes for the springs. 

I know I could just try them, but I don't have access to a dyno.  Hoping there might be some experienced opinions out there...

Thanks

[98valk]

cobra and dyna needles are the same and both are richer than FP needles which are richer than the OEM

[Black Sled]

cobra and dyna needles are the same and both are richer than FP needles which are richer than the OEM

Any thoughts as to which provides the best, most consistent AFR?  My dyno results with FP needles showed a lean spike around 4000 RPM.  I suppose that could be the I/S springs though????

[98valk]

cobra and dyna needles are the same and both are richer than FP needles which are richer than the OEM

Any thoughts as to which provides the best, most consistent AFR?  My dyno results with FP needles showed a lean spike around 4000 RPM.  I suppose that could be the I/S springs though????

I have found two things cause the lean spike. The harder fix is taking the curve out of the intake tubes inside of the airbox and making it a straight shot into the carbs. easier fix is the forward two carbs need to be one step richer on the needles, this is per Marc at FP and was the case on my bike.
The curve in the tubes is there for two things, slightly increases bottom end torque, not by much though due to the shortness and helps keep the intake roar quite for epa noise requirements. I like the six pack intake roar myself.

[Robert]

I would be very surprised by your setup now providing a consistent mix and even being a good idea above your lean spike. the 38 slows are good but the needles set at 4 are really not right because you are compensating with the needles for a lean mix which you can do until you get to 4k and then the needles are at the end of their adjustment and the mains kick in. The mains really could use to go a bit larger because the Valks are set lean from the factory and with the KN and pipes you are really running it right into lean even more. I would say that at anything over 4k if you put in maybe 105s then you could lean out your needles giving you better mileage and maybe even more power in your cruising range and at the top end you would also have a bit more and at idle ok. I have the Factory Pro stage 2 kit and the needles are the same ones as the regular kit and I did have the Cobra needles in before. They are pretty close at least close enough that the way you are setting it up I don't think you would notice a difference. The one thing that will make a difference is the Factory Pro needles are a bit shorter and taper thinner a little further up or closer to the clip. But again not really that much difference. By the way you have the needles adjusted now its really about the same thing. Factory Pro has done their homework on the Valk and really know the best setups so I would go with them and I did. I personally didn't see how just a jet kit could compensate for all the rpm ranges that our Valks run in or for that matter any vehicle because they only operate in a range and then the main or idle jets do more work. By having the mains stock no matter what you do to the needles you will always run up against the mains metering the fuel. I can tell you that I am happy since I installed my Factory kit  as opposed to my Cobra kit because I always felt that my bike lacked anything something above 3/4 throttle. Yes it would pull but not as much as I wanted, but she ran well and I really didn't want to do the work so she stayed like that for quite a while but after I really had nothing else to do on her and I was thinking what do I want to do I bought the Factory kit and I must say it did all that I wanted it to do. My mileage improved and my top end is better and idle is a bit smoother.

[Black Pearl's Captain]

Robert have you put it on the dyno after those changes?

Raymond

[Black Sled]

Robert,

I neglected to mention that the dyno I was referring to I had 105 mains installed.  It was pretty rich after the lean spike all the way out to redline - this really surprised me.  That is why I went back to stock mains.  Now I am trying to get the needles just right.  I also have the FP kit. It may be okay as is - went riding Saturday and it was 97 degF outside.  Really no sign of being too rich.

The issue of spring selection is more of a mystery to me.  Clearly the springs effect the AFR curve in the mid-range, so there must be a slow jet/needle/main jet combination that gives the smoothest AFR curve.  I'd love to see dyno runs (AFR curves) with the various spings installed (stock, I/S, and Cobra).  If I lived near a metro area, I'd go get these done myself....

Thanks for the post...

[Robert]

Raymond no I haven't done a dyno yet, but now I think I might and will report when I do, in fact I have wanted to ask you what kind of pistons do you have in your bike and is it the stock crank?  Black sled this surprises me too. Mine with the Cobra needles at 3 down was really to rich and I had to space it between 2 and 3 to lean it out. With mine I took the baffle out of the air box and it made a big difference in the bike, even as far as the throttle response. I also have 110 mains in mine and considered going 115 but didn't want to go to much until I could dyno it so basically this is a base/starting point. I really haven't been in a rush because I am happy with the results of the work I have done. You haven't said what air filter you have or what exhaust. You know that the air filter does make a difference and to a lesser extent the exhaust. Let me make a suggestion to you call Factory Pro I called and found them helpful and knowledgeable and they do talk like they really did dyno time to tune these bikes in they may be able to help more or at least point you in a direction. I guess I can understand your result with the mains and my guess is that Honda made the airbox to pull a slight vacuum at full throttle and this would richen the mix.

[Black Sled]

Robert - Will take your advice and call FactoryPro and see if they have tuning info for K&N with Cobra pipes.  I have their kit but the tuning info included was for a stock AF.  Don't know what changes with K&N.

[98valk]

Robert - Will take your advice and call FactoryPro and see if they have tuning info for K&N with Cobra pipes.  I have their kit but the tuning info included was for a stock AF.  Don't know what changes with K&N.

this will save u the phone call
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi?read=969520

This was posted by J. Orr, 3/27/1998, on the GWRRA BBS, valkyrie section.
The following mods were done by Marc the owner of Factory Pro of a valkyrie that had cobra 6x6 pipes.
K&N filter (w/o prefilter)
Air box mod (remove plastic welded baffle)
38 pilot jet
3.5 turns idle mixture screw
front needles set on #3
mid and rear needles set on #2
115 main jets all carbs
this picked up 5 hp over the base run with the cobras.

this HP is still down from the stock pipes or almost the same.

[Hellcat]

I have the Factory Pro recc's from the kit somewhere. Will look around tomorrow. No air box mod, that's for sure.

[Ricky-D]

CA writes:

I have found two things cause the lean spike. The harder fix is taking the curve out of the intake tubes inside of the airbox and making it a straight shot into the carbs. easier fix is the forward two carbs need to be one step richer on the needles, this is per Marc at FP and was the case on my bike.
The curve in the tubes is there for two things, slightly increases bottom end torque, not by much though due to the shortness and helps keep the intake roar quite for epa noise requirements. I like the six pack intake roar myself.

All six hoses are the same part number, so why the bend. I don't know. Probably over-engineering, normal for Honda!

Maybe that top inside part of the hose could be simply cut off removing the bend all together.  I don't have the inclination but would be interested in knowing what if any effect could be produced.  I remember as a kid we would take off the air cleaners and race up the road with our cars. Thought we were doing something.   

I recall reading a few threads about how detrimental to motor performance were any modifications to the air box but never saw anything on the hoses.  Seems to me an easier air passage would have to be a plus. Maybe when I see an air box again on E-Bay I'll get it and experiment a little.  One thing, I know it would be easier to remove and replace the air box if the hoses were a little more easily pulled out of the air box, which they are not now.

Just some interesting thinking.

***

[Hellcat]

I have the Factory Pro recc's from the kit somewhere. Will look around tomorrow. No air box mod, that's for sure.

So the kit came with "suggested starting base settings". There are two that say "Cobra 6x6 with baffles" (assuming one is not a typo and was supposed to say "without")

#1 K&N without prefilter, remove airbox intake baffle, 115 mains, needles in position 3, 38 pilots, fuel screws two turns

#2 stock air filter, 98 mains front two cyls, 100 mains rear four cyls, needles position 4 front two cyls, needles pos 3 rear four cyls, 38 pilots, fuel screws two turns

[Black Sled]

I have the Factory Pro recc's from the kit somewhere. Will look around tomorrow. No air box mod, that's for sure.

So the kit came with "suggested starting base settings". There are two that say "Cobra 6x6 with baffles" (assuming one is not a typo and was supposed to say "without")

#1 K&N without prefilter, remove airbox intake baffle, 115 mains, needles in position 3, 38 pilots, fuel screws two turns

#2 stock air filter, 98 mains front two cyls, 100 mains rear four cyls, needles position 4 front two cyls, needles pos 3 rear four cyls, 38 pilots, fuel screws two turns

Thanks for the info.  Can't help but wonder if there is anything available for K&N with stock air box.  That first setup sounds a little extreme.  Will try to call FP tomorrow and will post anything new...

[98valk]

CA writes:

I have found two things cause the lean spike. The harder fix is taking the curve out of the intake tubes inside of the airbox and making it a straight shot into the carbs. easier fix is the forward two carbs need to be one step richer on the needles, this is per Marc at FP and was the case on my bike.
The curve in the tubes is there for two things, slightly increases bottom end torque, not by much though due to the shortness and helps keep the intake roar quite for epa noise requirements. I like the six pack intake roar myself.

All six hoses are the same part number, so why the bend. I don't know. Probably over-engineering, normal for Honda!

Maybe that top inside part of the hose could be simply cut off removing the bend all together.  I don't have the inclination but would be interested in knowing what if any effect could be produced.  I remember as a kid we would take off the air cleaners and race up the road with our cars. Thought we were doing something.   

I recall reading a few threads about how detrimental to motor performance were any modifications to the air box but never saw anything on the hoses.  Seems to me an easier air passage would have to be a plus. Maybe when I see an air box again on E-Bay I'll get it and experiment a little.  One thing, I know it would be easier to remove and replace the air box if the hoses were a little more easily pulled out of the air box, which they are not now.

Just some interesting thinking.

***

I took the curves out of mine, straight shot now for almost 20k miles. modified the airbox lid. used the baffles to block off the oem air intake in the lid and cut to holes in the front of the lid. this requires new main jets. I also run dial-a-jet. I have written about this numerous times.

[Hellcat]

I took the curves out of mine, straight shot now for almost 20k miles. modified the airbox lid. used the baffles to block off the oem air intake in the lid and cut to holes in the front of the lid. this requires new main jets. I also run dial-a-jet. I have written about this numerous times.

But have you posted pictures?   

[98valk]

I took the curves out of mine, straight shot now for almost 20k miles. modified the airbox lid. used the baffles to block off the oem air intake in the lid and cut to holes in the front of the lid. this requires new main jets. I also run dial-a-jet. I have written about this numerous times.

But have you posted pictures?  

Ok lets try posting some pics for the first time.


center divider has been removed. Divider is not OEM.




Front view of top cover. top cover not installed


 rear view of top cover. top cover installed.

[Hellcat]

 Thanks!

[Ricky-D]

Thats funny. My airbox has no internal baffles.  2000 I/S

Never touched it either!

What gives?

***

[98valk]

Thats funny. My airbox has no internal baffles.  2000 I/S

Never touched it either!

What gives?

***

are u referring to the center divider in the first pic? that was my addition, it runs better without it. and actually due to the firing order there is no crosstalk btwn the intakes, which was my org concern.
The oem baffle that I refer to is part of the top lid, which I removed and cut apart to block the org opening in the top lid.

[Black Sled]

Thanks for posting the pics.  They are a bit small on my screen.  I can see where you blocked the inlet snorkel, but can't tell where the inlet is now. 

[98valk]

Thanks for posting the pics.  They are a bit small on my screen.  I can see where you blocked the inlet snorkel, but can't tell where the inlet is now. 

I added discriptions to the pics. Hopefully that helps.