need help diagnose a miss/gas leak

[sixlow]

Teal, coming home Thanksgiving eve I got stuck on I95 for 2 hrs. to go 4 miles to my exit. cops had shot at an ex cop who held up a store in Daytona.  Hell ride cuz it was lift legs, balance slow speed, go ten feet, stop, repeat, it sucked. about an hour and a half into it she started running rough at idle and I kept reving her up to somewhat clear her throat but never did, days later my test run with the new shield and she was still missing, so get home Friday night and decide to go get good non eth gas in Palatka and add a can of seafoam, she would load up and miss under 3k rpm, above that she ran fine, get her home let that foam work by sitting, tried to start today and she was bound up, after my second push on start button I knew I had better stop, pulled plugs, front left (#2 I believe) was wet with gas, crank her and get a little from that cylinder all others seem fine, this bike has a belly tank with electric pump so hydrolock should not be an issue but maybe one bowl full of gas is enough to bind her up. put new plugs in and she fires right up, smooth, had to adjust idle screw up a little but sounded normal. turn off, wait a minute, start and she takes a second to clear herself but then smooths out and is fine. Then I notice this same cylinder is leaking fuel below down the exhaust pipe, I get the wife to start it as I am under looking and can see an exhaust leak there and this black gas running down. this pic is after a good wipe down. could it be a stuck float or a loose jet in this carb and could I possibly drop that one bowl to investigate or should I just get prepared to do a complete carb job ?
Thanks for reading all this.

[John Schmidt]

That's a bit strange, I think I'd let it cool down then pull all the plugs and run a compression test before going any further. It is possible you have a cylinder being washed down with excess gas causing it to look like it's oil running out. As for the carb job, I wouldn't bother doing just one, figure if one is giving trouble the others may not be too far behind. That belly tank is driven by a fuel pump, one of the reasons I don't like it but that's just me, some swear by it.....others at it due to pump issues. After doing some testing, you might consider taking that tank out of the system and see how the bike runs. Don't remove it, just take it out of the overall operation so you're not drawing from it at any time. Let us know what you find out from any testing you do.

[sixlow]

Off to Harbor Freight in the morning for a compression tester. My first bike before I got it had a similar problem with gas getting into the exhaust and dripping out the pipes and it turned out to be a jet was not tightened after a carb rebuild job. It was one of the longest threads ever done by the previous owner Roger Morris. probably not my issue but seems similar in a way. I will check compression tomorrow.

[Tropic traveler]

Float stuck on the offending cylinder??
That was the problem on the red & white a few years back with similar symptoms.  

[John Schmidt]

Check the oil level, might have gas in the oil now so don't want to run it much.

[IamGCW]

Float stuck as stated.  Or the float valve seat has failed from debris or deterioration.  But why did the carb overflow run the excess gas out.  Do our carbs have an overflow (An older bike I once owned had a hair holding the float valve open and it flowed gas through a hose to the ground.) 


Is it possible the fuel pump is running to much pressure forcing gas past the float valve? 

Gil

[Pappy!]

Float is stuck on the carb for that cylinder. Buy all new seals and float valves at the minimum. Would change out rail seals and buy enricher hoses and O-rings as well. May as well do it all while you are there.

[John Schmidt]

Float stuck as stated.  Or the float valve seat has failed from debris or deterioration.  But why did the carb overflow run the excess gas out.  Do our carbs have an overflow (An older bike I once owned had a hair holding the float valve open and it flowed gas through a hose to the ground.) 


Is it possible the fuel pump is running to much pressure forcing gas past the float valve? 

Gil

Gil, they do have an overflow. Each carb has a small tube running from near the drain screw, joins together atop the engine and flows out a single tube under the bike. I learned some time ago a method of draining the bowls of their junk. Using a MityVac, attach it to the overflow tube under the bike. Pump it up good then release one drain screw. The vacuum causes extra turbulence in the bowl, which in turn will draw the otherwise unmoved debris if you just opened the drain without the vacuum; i.e., letting gravity only do the work. Do each carb separately, remember to close the prior drain screw before pumping up the MityVac on the next one. Might be all that's needed to remove something from under the float valve.

[sixlow]

My wadded up blue jean compression tester says has good comp. on that cyl which had a little gas in there said my zip tie dip stick from spark plug hole, intake port had some fuel, Forget about me getting bowl off while on bike, must come apart to get to float, oil looks good so I have to burn this full tank of fuel today to be able to take tank off, (its a belly tank thing). Then get ready to buy rebuild parts. Pappy can u send me links to parts ?

[sixlow]

Well she ran great today for 140 miles (of course), but I think mostly due to the new plugs, and especially that #2 cyl. plug, the one removed from that cyl was black as molasses. I think this float has been stuck before or the valve leaking for some time come to think of it, Intermittent rough running episodes make sense now. I got the redeye link, Thanks, I have heard of Jets r us so will get the 38's (cuz most say so) and the 105's as a guess because of the glass pack exhaust I figure the jets have been done before, I would go stock 100s but would hate to hear a backfire on decel, any numbers on the jets ? other stock parts I can get from partzilla.
After my ride I got under to take a look and did see some new signs of gas leakage but also found this coolant leak, think this ol gurl is trying to tell me something. Lets do a thermostat, gasket, seals lower hose, and a thermostat housing hose while where at it.  she knows I have some time off around the holidays. anything else can we think of ?

[_Sheffjs_]

She just wants the holidays off to get her nails done all the while pointing to the IS

[Grumpy]

When you have the carbs off look at the back of the thermostat housing. 2 chrome tubes come out and go to the cyl heads.  I have run into several leaking there, each tube has a wedge shaped o-ring on it.

[sixlow]

On the jets are the "Genuine Keihin" jets worth the money  over the "OEM Equivalent ", ??

[John Schmidt]

On the jets are the "Genuine Keihin" jets worth the money  over the "OEM Equivalent ", ??

I get all my jets and float valves from JetRUs, I get the "equivalent" for the jets but originals for the floaties. As for the mains, unless someone has already messed with them, I'd stick with OEM size. I've had #38 slow jets for years with stock mains and all I get from time to time is a little burble when slowing against compression. My exhaust isn't stock so most of it is due to that. With stock exhaust and stock trigger wheel(mine is a 4 degree) you shouldn't get anything on decel. For parts, go to Caliber.com, if you order over $99 it ships for free and their prices are better than Partszilla. And Grumps is right, while you're in there replace the coolant seals on the small tubes on top of the block. Looks like you're going to need a new water pump anyway so you'll need to drain the coolant and I believe the oil since one bolt goes into the oil passage if my Oldtimer's disease lets me remember right. Go to the site that has all the various automotive equivalents for thermostats, gasket for it, etc., unless you like spending $$ at the dealer prices.   

Before spending $$ on a water pump, check the hose clamp on the top of the t'stat housing. In the past that has been a source for leaks after the passage of time, seems the clamp loosens a tad. Actually, not really that the clamp loosens as I recall, something the factory wrapped around the neck of that housing that deteriorates over time causing the same symptom. But, if you're going to do the entire thing anyway it's not an issue.

[Pappy!]

Most of the seal kits can be purchased here.   http://redeye.ecrater.com/c/414983/carb-intake-seal-kits
I think John helped you with the info on jets and float valves.

[sixlow]

Thanks Fellas, carb parts on order, that added up quick ! Since she will be out of service for a while I will investigate the coolant leak more later but it does look like a water pump is in my future parts cart as well. I will keep you posted. 

[John Schmidt]

Take another look at the pump, is the coolant coming out of the weep hole at the bottom?  If not, the pump may not be bad. The picture looks like it's coming from above the weep hole but can't tell for sure.

[Grumpy]

Almost looks like it is leaking out of the drain bolt and some blowing towards the motor. Could be the copper washer that seals it is toast.

[sixlow]

Looks like the water pump is leaking at the weep hole. I see why we need to drain the oil before removing this pump. New pump on order, might as well do the thermostat too. I used partzilla instead of procaliber. Zilla is ten bucs more but will ship in 3 days, caliber said expect delivery dec. 31-jan.4th. Interesting that about an hour after closing the caliber page they send you an email saying you didn't finish your order and they offer another 5% off. keep that in mind for future non rush orders. zilla and caliber have free shipping over one hundred too.

[John Schmidt]

Leak possibly caused by improper coolant. Can't use anything with all those additives they put in for cars/trucks. I don't use anything but distilled water and Water Wetter since I don't live up north. Keeps it plenty cool down here in summer as well.

[Thunderbolt]

Looks like you have the problem at hand Mike.  Glad you remembered to drain the oil before pulling the pump.  Otherwise most of it drains out on the floor.  

[sixlow]

Leak possibly caused by improper coolant. Can't use anything with all those additives they put in for cars/trucks. I don't use anything but distilled water and Water Wetter since I don't live up north. Keeps it plenty cool down here in summer as well.

Another good call John, when I looked at old coolant it was gritty, I flushed rad now this makes me want to flush the block as well.

[sixlow]

o.k. the block has been flushed, my hose nozzle is a direct fit in the thermostat housing  , had put some cardboard in front of the waterpump/engine block access so I didn't wash the crankcase. 

[John Schmidt]

That looks so clean. Absolutely disgusting.