Stopping, putting feet down....Help!

[Chrisj CMA]

The key word in your question is “Balanced” stop.  The ability to accomplish this with one foot down and one foot up is questionable.  The Valk is heavy and the front end is soft meaning it likes to drop down/compress during a stop  and then when you’re just about stopped it rebounds about 200lbs of front end back at you.  This is especially noticeable if you rely on the front brake for most of your stopping and or come in kind of hot/fast.  Try using more rear brake and less front brake to minimize that action.  I firmly believe that most riders, especially those who learned on motorcycles with drum brakes, do not use enough rear brake and could probably improve their stopping and cornering if they learned to do so.

I ride my 505 lbs Magna during the week.  The transition to a 770lb Valk takes a few stops to get used to.  I use both brakes to reduce speed about 95%.  This reduces the amount of weight being transferred to the front and keeps the front suspension from compressing a lot.  Just prior to completing the stop I put BOTH feet down which allows the entire weight of the bike to be centered.  Once stopped, after assuring that I am not going to get rear ended, I pop it into neutral, which allows me to relax my left hand, and then sit at the light with both feet on the ground.  That is why you were given two legs. 

This one legged drop/stop stuff leaves me confused and I have always questioned the logic/reasoning for doing so.  I half suspect that it originated with someone who did a lot of bicycle riding and had to pick one foot up to start the pedal movement.  They were not used to letting a motor initiate the movement for them.  While it might be OK on one of those 250CC Honda Rebels they run in the training courses it doesn’t make any sense with more weight.  I have actually seen riders, on a windy day drop their bikes at a stop because of that.  If that one foot, with rubber soled boots/shoes is up on a rubber peg and your bike starts going over in that direction chances are good that you won’t be able to get your foot off the peg in time to stop the movement and you’re going down.  The fact that you have it in gear as you go down will only add to the amusement.

Just before the stop light turns green I pop whatever I am riding back into gear,  return the left leg to the ground,  launch with the bike straight, the weight evenly distributed and both feet coming up at the same time. Just like the pros do at the drag strip.  Smooooooth..and quick!

Cruzen.  Just like I told the original poster...It just takes practice.  If you take your Valk out to a big parking lot and practice slow turns and stops eventually the one foot thing wont seem so impossible.  It becomes very natural to come to a "balanced" stop using only the left foot.  The purpose is to maintain brake control with the foot instead of the hand so you have the hand free to work the throttle when its time to go (very helpful when stopping on a hill).   Also keeping it in gear lets you GO immediately if someone else determines its TIME for you to go or be hit, which has happened to me sitting at a light before.  Doing it one way all the time reinforces a good habit so when you need these advantages, they are there just there. 

[Jay]

You put the left foot down, you put the left foot up...

The Hokey-Pokey is what it's all about!

[Willow]

Quite an interesting discussion, but we seem to be dodging one question that has been brought up:
Why put only the left foot down, or why put both feet down? 

My reasoning:  Three points make solid stand.  That would be two tires and one foot.  The argument was given that if your left foot slipped out or there was a low spot on the left you would have the right to hold you up.

If you're truly holding the bike on your left foot and it slips out or goes into a depression all the right feet in the world won't help you.  They'll be on the wrong side of a falling bike.

Balanced bike arguments notwithstanding, the most stable bike at a prolonged stop is ever so slightly leaning to one side (three points).

As for the teaching of experience, valid and invalid, I've twice had my right bag cut away while I was stopped and didn't drop the bike on either occasion.  I've also stopped twice on a slight sideways incline and, while not paying adequate attention, dropped the bike for no good reason and no small amount of embarrassment. 

I keep my right foot on the brake to keep the brakelight shining.  I prefer to have my right hand free and the rear brake is the last participant in the stop.

I sometimes put both feet down.  I sometimes put neither foot down.  I occasionally put down the sidestand and dance around the machine.  Well, it's been a while since I did that.   

The important issue is that you hold your stop as long as is needed and that you, the rider, are prepared to mitigate the threat that you most reasonably fear.

Incidentally, I've learned that it's a bad idea for me to keep my left foot under the shift lever in a hard left turn.  Ask if you will.  I won't explain why.    

[Michael K (Az.)]

Incidentally, I've learned that it's a bad idea for me to keep my left foot under the shift lever in a hard left turn.  Ask if you will.  I won't explain why.   

You find that you've used up your allotted shoe leather in one turn!

[fudgie]

Quite an interesting discussion, but we seem to be dodging one question that has been brought up:
Why put only the left foot down, or why put both feet down? 
Comments?

For me, if I have my left foot down and my right one up, i'm only planing on staying at this stop sign for a second. By the time I get my right one down I'd be ready to roll anyway and would just have to put it back up. Hmmm... I sound lazy.  ??? Now don't get me wrong, I stop, look, listen, etc. This normally applies when there are 2 bikes per lane and 6+ lanes at the intersection. Ride up side by side, stop, put foot down, see others roll paralell with you/ no cross traffic, roll forward.    Now depending on my location, time of day, and who's watching and another thing, I will put both feet down. 

[ArmyValker]

Quite an interesting discussion, but we seem to be dodging one question that has been brought up:
Why put only the left foot down, or why put both feet down?  I have seen the discussion about nuetral vs. 1st gear, and while it's a good discussion, is not relevant to the feet down question.  Shifting into nuetral or 1st prior to the complete stop (or immediately after, as to your preference) is easy enough.  The closest I've seen to answering the question is the exhortation to use rear brake to add stability.  OK, so maybe that precludes you from putting the right foot down immediately.  Maybe not.  Either way, once you're stopped, why not put that right foot down during the wait at a light?  The bike is already stopped.  You can hold it on a hill with front brake.  You can be in whatever gear butters your bread.  Why would you not want the extra foot down, to straighten the bike up and ease your takeoff?  If you really have to, due to an extreme hill, or other need to have the brake on during takeoff (?) you could put the foot back up.

Comments?

I got into the practice of the "one legged stop" because I find myself often sitting at stoplights/stopsigns on steep inclines. I could hold position with the front brake, but it seems a ton easier to me to just sit on the back brake and let out the clutch when I need to without having to think about rolling the throttle while simultaneously letting off the front brake.
It's just become a habit. I often flat foot and stand up while in heavy traffic to give my legs some rest. I've even been known to put it in neutral from time to time..

[Willow]

I got into the practice of the "one legged stop" because I find myself often sitting at stoplights/stopsigns on steep inclines. I could hold position with the front brake, but it seems a ton easier to me to just sit on the back brake and let out the clutch when I need to without having to think about rolling the throttle while simultaneously letting off the front brake.

I know what you mean.  My friend, Bandit, never uses the front brake.  I guess he just couldn't get the hang of rolling on the throttle and off the brake with the same hand.    

[Gryphon Rider]

It's interesting that this discussion is coming up now, because for the last week I've been trying to change my habits regarding stopping and putting foot/feet down.

I am a licenced MC instructor.  I tell my students there are some things we teach that are without a doubt the safest way to do something (e.g. using both brakes in straight line solid surface braking, shoulder checking before changing lanes, etc.), and some things we teach give them the best chance of success and safety most of the time, but there can be other successful methods (e.g. there can be different sequences of steps to start a motorcycle engine).

We teach that with normal riding, the best method is to stop with both brakes, put the left foot down, and shoulder check.  When in traffic, maintain this position with the bike in gear, just in case you have to instantly move in an emergency.  When leaving, take your foot off the brake and lift up the left foot.

My habit, however, has been to slow with both brakes, put my right foot down, and finish stopping with the front brake.  This allowed me to easily put the bike in neutral (when 2 or 3 cars behind me have already stopped), and rest my clutch hand.  This led to minor problems in two situations:

• I have a car tire on the back.  Road surface irregularities want to push the bike one way or the other, especially at slow speeds, like when coming to a stop.  Sometimes I have to turn the bars to react to this, and if I need to use the front brake to stop because my right foot is approaching the pavement, this makes the bike want to tip and I have to use more leg strength to keep it upright.
  
• On a rare occasion I have to stop immediately after starting, such as when I'm turning right on a red light where it's difficult to see cars approaching from the left.  E.g. it looks clear, I start to move, and a car appears from around a corner to my left, and I have to quickly stop before entering its path.  Because I'm still lifting my right foot off of the pavement, I'm forced to use the front brake when my bars are turned.  This makes the bike want to tip and I have to use more leg strength to keep it upright.

The habit I'm trying to form is this:  Stop with both brakes and put left foot down.  If it's going to be a long red light and 2 or 3 cars have already stopped behind me, switch feet and put the bike in neutral.  Put both feet on the ground (if I like) and hold the front brake.  When it's time to go in a few moments, put the bike in gear, put the left foot back down, and the right foot on the brake.  This new habit will mean more foot switching, but will help my balance in my two problem situations listed above, because I'll be using my rear brake rather than the front when the bars are turned.

[ArmyValker]

I got into the practice of the "one legged stop" because I find myself often sitting at stoplights/stopsigns on steep inclines. I could hold position with the front brake, but it seems a ton easier to me to just sit on the back brake and let out the clutch when I need to without having to think about rolling the throttle while simultaneously letting off the front brake.

I know what you mean.  My friend, Bandit, never uses the front brake.  I guess he just couldn't get the hang of rolling on the throttle and off the brake with the same hand.    

That guy is a better rider than I'll ever be. 

[RedValk]

interesting discussion INDEED....for something most of us just do automatically....ie....most of us certainly don't even think about stopping...how you will do it....putting your feet down...etc.

It's also amazing how much "debate" there can be on a subject like this! but, that's just us bikers....whether it's how to put your feet down....synthetic oil vs. regular oil....tire brands or going "dark side"....etc, we can have some lively debate over things that seem on the surface.....would be something of little debate  

But i'll take debate on this stuff any day ....over all the political BS debates........

NOW........mere hours before departure for CBR!!!!!!!!!!!!!  No debate on that, i'm going. the heavy rains won't stop me, i'm a TRAILER QUEEN. i'll just roll up the windows (oh, yet ANOTHER debate....whether Trailer Queens like me are Losers, Sissies, etc. Oh...........the humility!). But i WILL arrive dry....refreshed....safely....ready to ride my butt off while there with friends! and i won't have to "worry" about which foot to put down on the way there either 

[R J]

NOW........mere hours before departure for CBR!!!!!!!!!!!!!  No debate on that, I'm going. the heavy rains won't stop me, I'm a TRAILER QUEEN. I'll just roll up the windows (oh, yet ANOTHER debate....whether Trailer Queens like me are Losers, Sissies, etc. Oh...........the humility!). But i WILL arrive dry....refreshed....safely....ready to ride my butt off while there with friends! and i won't have to "worry" about which foot to put down on the way there either

Who really gives a crap about the Trailer Queens?  I've trailered several year and I'll keep right on doing it if I take MGM.    MGM & I have both earned this right.

In a few days, I'll be 77, and MGM has 242,000+ miles under his belt.

Now, if I take the Trike, I don't have a trailer for it........  So, I ride it in..........


Those who want to holler about Trailer queens, kiss my butt, not on the left side or the right side, but right in the groove..........

Sorry Willow, it ticked me off, so delete if ya have to.

[RedValk]

NOW........mere hours before departure for CBR!!!!!!!!!!!!!  No debate on that, I'm going. the heavy rains won't stop me, I'm a TRAILER QUEEN. I'll just roll up the windows (oh, yet ANOTHER debate....whether Trailer Queens like me are Losers, Sissies, etc. Oh...........the humility!). But i WILL arrive dry....refreshed....safely....ready to ride my butt off while there with friends! and i won't have to "worry" about which foot to put down on the way there either

Who really gives a crap about the Trailer Queens?  I've trailered several year and I'll keep right on doing it if I take MGM.    MGM & I have both earned this right.

In a few days, I'll be 77, and MGM has 242,000+ miles under his belt.

Now, if I take the Trike, I don't have a trailer for it........  So, I ride it in..........


Those who want to holler about Trailer queens, kiss my butt, not on the left side or the right side, but right in the groove..........

Sorry Willow, it ticked me off, so delete if ya have to.

+1

    

[Willow]

NOW........mere hours before departure for CBR!!!!!!!!!!!!!  No debate on that, I'm going. the heavy rains won't stop me, I'm a TRAILER QUEEN. I'll just roll up the windows (oh, yet ANOTHER debate....whether Trailer Queens like me are Losers, Sissies, etc. Oh...........the humility!). But i WILL arrive dry....refreshed....safely....ready to ride my butt off while there with friends! and i won't have to "worry" about which foot to put down on the way there either

Who really gives a crap about the Trailer Queens?  I've trailered several year and I'll keep right on doing it if I take MGM.    MGM & I have both earned this right.

In a few days, I'll be 77, and MGM has 242,000+ miles under his belt.

Now, if I take the Trike, I don't have a trailer for it........  So, I ride it in..........


Those who want to holler about Trailer queens, kiss my butt, not on the left side or the right side, but right in the groove..........

Sorry Willow, it ticked me off, so delete if ya have to.

+1

    

-1   

[Duey]

Over the years you develop habits that are good and bad. The advanced course will help improve your riding skills no mater how long you have been riding or whay you ride.
And point out many of your bad habits so you can eliminate them..

My $,05! 

Ride em if you got em!

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I've taken the advanced course a couple of times. Mostly full of good stuff and the reinforcement of "head and eyes" is always good, in particular after a winter of less frequent riding. (My scooter is never stored, but I don't ride it on ice so it sometimes sits for a month).

However, I don't agree with using the whole hand instead of two fingers on the front brake.  I think many of us are better off using only two fingers and that this amounts to micro-managing something which should be a personal decision. When I was reminded about it the 2'nd time in my last class I told the instructor if he had to flunk me on that one then go ahead but I felt I had better control using only two fingers. Then I made the shortest “E” stop in the class and from the highest speed too. If you rode a bike with poor front braking abilities or if you had poor hand strength it might be different but two fingers is plenty for me on the valk.

If you watch the racers they seem to mostly use two fingers also and they are no doubt better than average riders. With the exception of that I thought the advanced courses were right on the money.

[Valker]

I've taken the advanced course a couple of times. Mostly full of good stuff and the reinforcement of "head and eyes" is always good, in particular after a winter of less frequent riding. (My scooter is never stored, but I don't ride it on ice so it sometimes sits for a month).

However, I don't agree with using the whole hand instead of two fingers on the front brake.  I think many of us are better off using only two fingers and that this amounts to micro-managing something which should be a personal decision. When I was reminded about it the 2'nd time in my last class I told the instructor if he had to flunk me on that one then go ahead but I felt I had better control using only two fingers. Then I made the shortest “E” stop in the class and from the highest speed too. If you rode a bike with poor front braking abilities or if you had poor hand strength it might be different but two fingers is plenty for me on the valk.

If you watch the racers they seem to mostly use two fingers also and they are no doubt better than average riders. With the exception of that I thought the advanced courses were right on the money.

Some of the reasoning for the 4 fingers in some classes is if (or when) a new rider falls over to the right side from overbraking on the front, if they are just using two fingers on the front brake lever, the other two (usually ring and pinky) frequently get broken or even amputated by the lever being forced to the bars when it hits.
This post is, in no way, speaking for the MSF course.

[MP]

The motorcycle police instructor that taught my week long class kind of echoed what Valker just said.  What ever you do normally, will be what you do in an emergency.

As the instructor taught, say you are at a stop in traffic, and you see in the mirror that you are about to become a bug spot on someones grill, who cannot get stopped. 

So, being in 1st gear, and ready to go, you whip to the side, and drive up between the rows of cars ahead of you.  Two fingers on the front brake, two on the handlebar.  Of course, it is tight, and you hit the sides of the cars as you force yourself in there, to avoid being killed.

That brake lever, as it hits the car beside you, just broke or cut off the last two fingers on your right hand!

MP

[BF]

After reading this thread earlier, I've since gone for a ride around town and made a few observations about myself and my habits.   

Stop signs.....generally roll up to, then proceed....unless having to stop for traffic.  Then it's left foot down....then go. 

Traffic lights.....both brakes, then left foot down while right is on brake...in first gear, clutch in.  If it's a long light and there's a bunch of traffic behind me already, I might put the bike in netural resting the left hand, put the right foot down and holding the bike with the right hand with one (middle) finger holding the front brake. 

More often than not, it's just roll up to the light with both brakes, then left foot down with right foot on brake....and it usually says that way untill time to move. 

Don't know how I picked up this habbit, but I noticed that I only use one finger on the front brake.....the middle one.  Maybe it's an unconscious attempt to flip off all of the cagers around me, who knows.   

One other observation I've made today.  Without exception, every Harley rider I saw today puts their bike in netural with both feet down.  Hands may or may not be on the handle bars.  Don't know if this means anything, but it's curious to note.   ???

[Chrisj CMA]

Yeah, Keyboarder....I see lots of Harley Riders doing that too....even the ones we rolled up behind as we were getting into Daytona last spring.  Out of the three Harleys, one forgot to put it into gear when he jammed the throttle and popped the clutch...his buds took off and he made lots of noise...   I was directly behind him two up with my trailer heavily loaded in tow.  He looked back to see if I saw what he had done.  I was laughing and shaking my head "NO".  I was one foot from his back fender when he crammed it in first and took off as hot as he knew how.  I let him get about ten feet ahead but stuck to his a$$ until the next light.  he was giving it all he had, and was completely pissed that I could stay right there with him with apparent ease...........I wish I had the camera out when He looked back the second time in disgust because he looked foolish twice in one block!

[Jess from VA]

After 40 years of riding, I do what I want.  But I agree that left down, right on foot brake is best, and if done consistently will give the smoothest possible stops and takeoffs, and best control under all circumstances.  Sure most of us can put two down, hold the the front brake, and release that brake while throttling up with the same hand.....but try it on a truly steep uphill incline, like 60 degrees or more.  There are not many out there, but they do exist.  When I was teaching the wife, I led her to one (not on purpose), and she stalled, put it on the kickstand, got off and yelled, 'you move it you bustard.'  I did, while cars waited.

Here's a variation on the theme.  I am slow rolling up to a light, but will make a right, down a high crown road and up a steep apron just before the light, so I don't have to come to a complete stop.  I clutch and shift down to first, flop the bars, lean the bike far over and turn, gas up, and discover I have downshifted the dang square cut gears to neutral and not first.  I am going over and there is no stopping it .....except there is a stop sign mounted to a solid 4 X 4 post right exactly where I need it (providence), and I end up pinned between the post and leaned over bike, and don't fall over.  Now I can kick to first and ride off the post.  Not one of my finer moves. ....must have been funny to see.  It wasn't so funny to do. No splinters, but a sore shoulder.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

The motorcycle police instructor that taught my week long class kind of echoed what Valker just said.  What ever you do normally, will be what you do in an emergency.

As the instructor taught, say you are at a stop in traffic, and you see in the mirror that you are about to become a bug spot on someones grill, who cannot get stopped. 

So, being in 1st gear, and ready to go, you whip to the side, and drive up between the rows of cars ahead of you.  Two fingers on the front brake, two on the handlebar.  Of course, it is tight, and you hit the sides of the cars as you force yourself in there, to avoid being killed.

That brake lever, as it hits the car beside you, just broke or cut off the last two fingers on your right hand!

MP

I see the reasoning but I’m still not sure I buy it. Whether your fingers are between the lever and what you are hitting or between the lever and the handlebar it looks like an equal chance for damage either way in my mind.

As someone who rode in the woods a lot before hand guards getting fingers hammered between the grips and the brush always sucked. I don’t remember if which side of the lever you fingers were on made any difference. We played tag in the woods and fields on motorcycles when I was a kid. Who ever was it had to touch another rider or bike to make them it. It was pretty difficult to touch them gently. It was even more interesting at night. Obliviously crashes and minor injuries were the norm but none of us could afford anything but small displacement, rat dirt bikes which were pretty slow by today’s standards. I guess that was a good thing!

[Rocketman]

So, being in 1st gear, and ready to go, you whip to the side, and drive up between the rows of cars ahead of you.  Two fingers on the front brake, two on the handlebar.  Of course, it is tight, and you hit the sides of the cars as you force yourself in there, to avoid being killed.
That brake lever, as it hits the car beside you, just broke or cut off the last two fingers on your right hand!

I see the reasoning but I’m still not sure I buy it. Whether your fingers are between the lever and what you are hitting or between the lever and the handlebar it looks like an equal chance for damage either way in my mind.

I'm with Frye on this one.  If you're getting threatened by an oncoming car, such that you (rightly) choose to force yourself into a space too small for you, hard enough to sever fingers, you've got bigger problems.
Of course, I also seem to do things differently than everyone else (imagine that).  I use three fingers on the brake, leaving my index and thumb to control the throttle.  I find that three fingers gives me good strength on the brake, and still allows me to pull in the lever all the way without hitting the finger still on the throttle.

On a side note, regarding voluntarily slamming your bike into parked cars:
I found myself in stop and go traffic in Los Angeles one day (imagine that!).  The exit ramp was stopped, and the through traffic was wide open.  It was a northbound highway, late in the day.  I was last in line on the left of two exiting lanes, with multiple through lanes to my left.
I looked in my mirror for a traffic check.  I saw the shadow of an 18 wheeler coming up way too fast.  By the time I saw it, I didn't have time to slam the bike into the cars next to me, but that was my only exit strategy.  Slam it into the cars next to me, and roll over hoods to the shoulder.  By the time my brain processed the danger, the truck whizzed past me on my left, and the long shadow cast by the late-day sun passed over me.  He was never in my lane, but when I saw the shadow in the lane to my right, I thought he was.  No damage other than the seat which had to be surgically removed from my...  yeah.
After the fact, I couldn't help but laugh at the mental picture of these cars minding their own business, when all of a sudden, the parked motorcycle next to them dumps the clutch and slams into them, rider rolling over the hood, as through traffic moves harmlessly past.