Drive shaft wear

[pancho]

Mallett, I'm wondering what process do you use to refill the final drive with lube?

[Mallett]

Mallett, I'm wondering what process do you use to refill the final drive with lube?

Pancho, I'm assuming you're referring to the final drive oil....after I  install the pumpkin back on the bike I remove the filler cap & put 5.1 ozs. in. I change my final drive oil every time I change my engine oil...only 5.1 ozs.....I do a complete service on the final drive, drive shaft & pinion cup every 10,000 miles...I average putting about 20,000 miles on my bike a year...so I'm doing that complete service twice a year...IMO guys that don't ride that much needs to do the complete service at least once a year...but that is just me...I'm a strong believer in preventive maintenance...

[pancho]

Well, I'm just digging for answers here Mallett. You mentioned that you drain your final drive through the holes in the pinion cup instead of the drain plug in the bottom of the drive, I wonder how much of the lube actually comes out before you put the 5.1 oz back in.  
I mean we would all like to have a self lubricating pinion cup, as Rio said, but if that was the design, why would Honda tell us to put three grams of moly grease into that joint? Three grams is quite a bit when measured out, (that's why the pictures look sloppy/greasy)  and it is more than sufficient to keep the joint lubed up between service intervals. That seems an overkill if final drive lube was supposed to be in there, plus we would be missing the benefits of the moly on the joint surfaces. Also now I have seen that the drive line is constantly shedding steel from contact with the pinion gear shaft, I don't think I want circulation between the pinion cup and final drive. Now I'm not being critical of your procedures in any of this,, just really looking for answers.  I mean, all of our final drives are the same and should operate the same.

" I'm a strong believer in preventive maintenance..."   Amen brother!!


How did you snap that picture of making sparks in the curve?

[Mallett]

Well, I'm just digging for answers here Mallett. You mentioned that you drain your final drive through the holes in the pinion cup instead of the drain plug in the bottom of the drive, I wonder how much of the lube actually comes out before you put the 5.1 oz back in.  
I mean we would all like to have a self lubricating pinion cup, as Rio said, but if that was the design, why would Honda tell us to put three grams of moly grease into that joint? Three grams is quite a bit when measured out, (that's why the pictures look sloppy/greasy)  and it is more than sufficient to keep the joint lubed up between service intervals. That seems an overkill if final drive lube was supposed to be in there, plus we would be missing the benefits of the moly on the joint surfaces. Also now I have seen that the drive line is constantly shedding steel from contact with the pinion gear shaft, I don't think I want circulation between the pinion cup and final drive. Now I'm not being critical of your procedures in any of this,, just really looking for answers.  I mean, all of our final drives are the same and should operate the same.

" I'm a strong believer in preventive maintenance..."   Amen brother!!


How did you snap that picture of making sparks in the curve?

Pancho, The reason I allow some of the oil to drain out thru the little holes is to make sure & get the contamination from using the carb cleaner to clean the inside of the pinion cup out...I also remove the drain plug later to make sure it is all drained....I have put 75,000 miles on my Valk in the last 3 1/2 years & done it this way every time...so far so go...

as for as how I got the picture...I had a camera mounted on my left saddlebag...look real close in this pic & you can see it...

 

[old2soon]

Just finished up yesterday on the Phatt Ghurls rear end service! I got her with 35653 on the clock she now has 115200 showing. Every time I've pulled the shaft and looked at the P-cup they have been dripping wet with oil. While there is a shine on the teeth of the splines I can still see the mill marks. I use Guard Dog moly-73% moly-and add NOTHNG to the P-cup. Until this DO NOT work anymore I'll continue to do what I've been doing. Coming up on 80000 miles I put on and at times I ride the snot outa her. Wheel bearings and a U-joint at 103000. I've seen a lot of P-cup horror shots-red dusty and rusty-and heard a lot of suggestions. Key is making cursed SURE those oil holes are open I believe.   RIDE SAFE.

[Mallett]

This is what I brush on after I get it clean...


I just brush on a lite coat...

This is how mine looks when I pull it out after 10,000 miles...


What it looks like clean with a 100,000 on it..

[Mallett]

Just finished up yesterday on the Phatt Ghurls rear end service! I got her with 35653 on the clock she now has 115200 showing. Every time I've pulled the shaft and looked at the P-cup they have been dripping wet with oil. While there is a shine on the teeth of the splines I can still see the mill marks. I use Guard Dog moly-73% moly-and add NOTHNG to the P-cup. Until this DO NOT work anymore I'll continue to do what I've been doing. Coming up on 80000 miles I put on and at times I ride the snot outa her. Wheel bearings and a U-joint at 103000. I've seen a lot of P-cup horror shots-red dusty and rusty-and heard a lot of suggestions. Key is making cursed SURE those oil holes are open I believe.   RIDE SAFE.

Old2soon, When I bought mine in June of 2012 it had 27,500 on the clock...now it has 102,900 showing...I use the Honda 60% moly on my final drive...still looks new...I agree with you on keeping those holes open but I know some of the guys pack the P-cup full of grease & that will work to if you service it regular...the key either way is to do it about every 10k....

[pancho]

I guess these Phat girls are just a bit more individual than I was giving them credit for....

none of your pictures are showing up Mallett,, like to see them.

[Mallett]

I guess these Phat girls are just a bit more individual than I was giving them credit for....

none of your pictures are showing up Mallett,, like to see them.

Pancho, I thought you saw the first pic I posted? I'll go back & see if I can fix it...

[Rio Wil]

Mallett....loved the photo with the sparks, I don't do that often....there is just something about 3 points of contact on a 2 contact point machine that is unnerving.....

I was just looking at my last failed drive shaft and noticed the wear marks are a bit odd. The inner most portion ( about 25%) of the spline on the drive shaft is sitting too far into the cup to make contact with the cup splines.  Part of that is because of the wear on the drive shaft and pinion shaft, but the unmated portion is about a fourth of the length of the spline surface.....a significant reduction of spline contact area to raise contact pressure on the remaining portion by a huge amount......putting the felt washer in the end of the new drive shaft should help re-position the drive shaft splines forward and increase overall spline contact......wish I had taken a close look at the wear pattern on the new drive shaft at this last lube interval to see if it is wearing the same way (it has 15K miles now)......may have to double the felt thickness to position the drive shaft to mate fully with the cup splines.....interesting.

 

[pancho]

 I did see the first one Mallett, good picture, (is the camera bluetooth linked for snapping the pictures?)  it came up when I clicked on the link earlier, but now I just get a white screen on any of them. Not sure if anyone else can see them and I have something set wrong or what.   Anyone?

[Mallett]

Guys I modified my post from earlier...the pics should show up now...sorry about that...

[Mallett]

I did see the first one Mallett, good picture, (is the camera bluetooth linked for snapping the pictures?)  it came up when I clicked on the link earlier, but now I just get a white screen on any of them. Not sure if anyone else can see them and I have something set wrong or what.   Anyone?

Pancho, It's a little video camera...I capture stills from it...

[Rio Wil]

Mallett....at your maintenance interval, is the final drive fluid kind of darkened from the pinion cup lube migrating back into the final drive......kind of shows proof of circulation of final drive fluid.

[Mallett]

Mallett....at your maintenance interval, is the final drive fluid kind of darkened from the pinion cup lube migrating back into the final drive......kind of shows proof of circulation of final drive fluid.

Yes it is, Rio Wil.....there is not a doubt in my mind that it is circulating...

[indybobm]

Just serviced the final drive last week. I always put Belray green grease on the drive splines and flange. I put Valvoline Duroblend with moly on the pinion cup and driveshaft and I have zero wear on the pinion shaft or end of the driveshaft.
When I changed the fluid in the final drive it was a gray color from the grease in the pinion cup.

[Tfrank59]

that's interesting...I had no idea gear lube was circulating (thought it was just barely dribbling).  Kinda makes you wonder if any other lube should be put on the pinion, though I'd hesitate to not to.

[Rio Wil]

gear lube was circulating (thought it was just barely dribbling)

that is indeed a more accurate description.

[indybobm]

Some people say that they do not get the circulation in the pinion cup.
As for the wear on some pinion shafts and end of the driveshaft, that is puzzling.
As far as I know, all Valk driveshafts are the same, except for the 97 which has a different part number.
The 97 driveshaft is no longer available and has been superceded by the 98-03 driveshaft.

[pancho]

Reading back over this thread Rio, I see you had already pretty much believed many of the conclusions (reasons for red rust forming) I arrived at long before I even looked into it.  I've learned a few things about that, but there are still several unanswered questions, even if they are different from the ones I had at first!

This is all over the board, and many of us seem to have different strategies for pinion cup/drive line maintenance, and apparently many of them work for different people. Me, I will continue to put two grams of moly grease in the cup, and one gram on the drive line splines as the service manual dictates,, but from now on, I will thoroughly clean the cup, and monitor the depression being worn in the end of the drive line.

[Rio Wil]

Interesting issue with solid opinions that seem to work. Still don't know why the 1500 GW'ers don't seem to have this problem. They just get a blank look when I ask about spline maintenance....usually the response is "I haven't had to do that in 80K miles" ......go figure.
I might try the "Honda protocol" at the next interval and have a spare shaft/cup available "just in case"......

[Tfrank59]

Well I guess we could ask on the Goldwing forum what they do for spline maintenance.  The guy that never did anything in 80K --yeah his dealer does it for him

[Rio Wil]

I have  a casual quittance that has 128K on his 97 Valk and he swears he has never had the final drive off the swing arm. Only has done the drive flange spline lube when changing rear tires at about 10-12K.  He also does not loosen the final drive 4 bolts before tightening the axle nut......go figure....

[98valk]

Yep.....that drive shaft/cup was changed due to looking like Squeakys photo at a a5L inspection.

Mallett:  I have serviced mine about 16-18 times at 12K to 15K intervals......3 times it had eaten itsself. I have talked to a number of GL1500 GW owners that have a blank look when asked about how often they do spline maintenance. Something about that final drive that lubes the way it is supposed to......means you never have to do it, just change final drive fluid occasionally......what a dream...

Rio Wil, I service mine at 10k intervals....so far no problem with the spline or cup...What I do is put a thin coat of CV joint lube on the spline & inside the cup with a brush & then reassemble it...

CV joint lube is grease.  Grease is oil in suspension due to the binders. during use the oil comes out of suspension. that is the oil u see in your earlier post not gear oil from the final drive.
service manual calls for moly paste, why are u using grease?
moly paste is good for 40k miles according to many well known Goldwing GL1500 mechanics. I believe the Honda service bulletin states same although I have never seen it.
the holes in there are vent/expansion holes and not for lubrication. the angle of the installed final drive puts those holes above the gear oil level.
The correct lubrication design as done in industry for spline engagement is complete immersion in oil. can't really do that on a m/c so Honda used the moly paste as the next best thing.

[pancho]

Pack 2 g (0.08 or) of molybdenum disulfide grease into the
plnion joint spline.
Install the drive shaft into the pinion joint until the stopper ring
seats in the pinion spline groove.
NOTE
Make sure that the stopper ring is seated properly by
pulling on the drive shaft lightly.
Be careful not to damage the drive shaft oil sea[.
Pack 1 g (0.04 cz) of molybdenum disulfide grease into the
drive shaft spline.


Service manual calls for moly paste in the splines and flange joint, moly grease in the pinion cup and drive line.

[Mallett]

The next time I do a rear end maintenance...I'm gonna fine some kind of colorant I can add to my final drive fluid & run it a few miles...that should settle the issue...I'm not here to argue with anyone...I just know what has work for me for 75,000 miles...

[pancho]

Well, I'm just digging for answers here Mallett. You mentioned that you drain your final drive through the holes in the pinion cup instead of the drain plug in the bottom of the drive, I wonder how much of the lube actually comes out before you put the 5.1 oz back in.  
I mean we would all like to have a self lubricating pinion cup, as Rio said, but if that was the design, why would Honda tell us to put three grams of moly grease into that joint? Three grams is quite a bit when measured out, (that's why the pictures look sloppy/greasy)  and it is more than sufficient to keep the joint lubed up between service intervals. That seems an overkill if final drive lube was supposed to be in there, plus we would be missing the benefits of the moly on the joint surfaces. Also now I have seen that the drive line is constantly shedding steel from contact with the pinion gear shaft, I don't think I want circulation between the pinion cup and final drive. Now I'm not being critical of your procedures in any of this,, just really looking for answers.  I mean, all of our final drives are the same and should operate the same.

" I'm a strong believer in preventive maintenance..."   Amen brother!!


How did you snap that picture of making sparks in the curve?

Pancho, The reason I allow some of the oil to drain out thru the little holes is to make sure & get the contamination from using the carb cleaner to clean the inside of the pinion cup out...I also remove the drain plug later to make sure it is all drained....I have put 75,000 miles on my Valk in the last 3 1/2 years & done it this way every time...so far so go...

as for as how I got the picture...I had a camera mounted on my left saddlebag...look real close in this pic & you can see it...

 

It looks like your spent some time and work to get some frames of you making sparks.....


I'd say the effort was well worth it!

[98valk]

The next time I do a rear end maintenance...I'm gonna fine some kind of colorant I can add to my final drive fluid & run it a few miles...that should settle the issue...I'm not here to argue with anyone...I just know what has work for me for 75,000 miles...

I'm not saying final drive oil doesn't and can't migrate into the pinion cup. I'm just saying the gear oil is not the lubrication method, the moly grease is per design for the lubrication. In an industrial application using this type of spline setup it would be lubricated in an oil bath, and moly grease would not be used.
if a grease is working correctly it will give up its oil lubricate, then there is less and less over time to lubricate. this is why a moly grease is specified, the moly comes out with the oil, the oil will go away but the moly stays and plates the metal surfaces providing tremendous protection. this is how any grease is designed to work.
suggest if u haven't already read about moly and Krytox here is a good basic read.
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Shaft.html#Splines

Royal purple gear oil is purple due to a dye. its a good syn gear oil also, don't care for their motor oil which never does good in used oil analysis.

I use a thin coat of copper anti-sieze first like it came from the factory and then TS-70 moly grease. My tires changes, I have never see oil in the pinion cup.

[Mallett]

Well, I'm just digging for answers here Mallett. You mentioned that you drain your final drive through the holes in the pinion cup instead of the drain plug in the bottom of the drive, I wonder how much of the lube actually comes out before you put the 5.1 oz back in.  
I mean we would all like to have a self lubricating pinion cup, as Rio said, but if that was the design, why would Honda tell us to put three grams of moly grease into that joint? Three grams is quite a bit when measured out, (that's why the pictures look sloppy/greasy)  and it is more than sufficient to keep the joint lubed up between service intervals. That seems an overkill if final drive lube was supposed to be in there, plus we would be missing the benefits of the moly on the joint surfaces. Also now I have seen that the drive line is constantly shedding steel from contact with the pinion gear shaft, I don't think I want circulation between the pinion cup and final drive. Now I'm not being critical of your procedures in any of this,, just really looking for answers.  I mean, all of our final drives are the same and should operate the same.

" I'm a strong believer in preventive maintenance..."   Amen brother!!


How did you snap that picture of making sparks in the curve?

Pancho, The reason I allow some of the oil to drain out thru the little holes is to make sure & get the contamination from using the carb cleaner to clean the inside of the pinion cup out...I also remove the drain plug later to make sure it is all drained....I have put 75,000 miles on my Valk in the last 3 1/2 years & done it this way every time...so far so go...

as for as how I got the picture...I had a camera mounted on my left saddlebag...look real close in this pic & you can see it...

 

It looks like your spent some time and work to get some frames of you making sparks.....


I'd say the effort was well worth it!

Pancho, Killboy took this pic...my little camera took the pic of the sparks....it was well worth the effort....

[pancho]

What tire and pressure are you running in the rear Mallett?  looks like it is working pretty well.

[Mallett]

What tire and pressure are you running in the rear Mallett?  looks like it is working pretty well.

Pancho, that's a Riken Raptor running 38-40 psi...I really liked the tire...went thru three of them...the tire sticks great but is a 55 series so it was about a 1/2 inch shorter than stock ....I am now running a Yokohama Avid Envigor 205/60r16 V rated...love it...