Pilot screws stuck

[Rocketman]

So, during our last carb-synch-fest (synched four bikes at once), we tried to re-set the pilot screws on them all.  If I had to estimate, I would say that of 24 screws (6X4), half of them were stuck to the point of not wanting to force it anymore.  Any ideas on how to get those unstuck (preferably short of pulling the carbs and drilling them out)?
Additionally, is there a good way to determine the proper setting for those, other than just going with the stated setting?  Surely there is enough variation from engine to engine to justify a method of checking the setting.

Mark

[Ricky-D]

Without accurate information on how the pilot screws are originally set at the factory, it's just assumption that what you are attempting to do is correct.  Read this as "Is doing this an upgrade or a downgrade?"  Can you be sure what you attempt is an improvement?

There are many threads on suggested settings for the screws and aftermarket parts manufacturers also make suggestions when you use their parts.

I think the bottom line is why mess with them if there isn't a demonstrated need to do so.  As you have discovered, the possibility arises that more additional work could be necessary if you continue to want to make adjustments that may well be unnecessary and nonproductive.

There will definitely be variations from bike to bike, a natural range I would think, but fiddling in a manner of experimentation without conviction of the end result is folly and could lead to larger issues.  Six times larger issues.

***

[Rocketman]

This is what I'm asking.  How do I go about demonstrating either the need for an adjustment, or the effectiveness of the adjustment?  Alternatively, how do I demonstrate that it's set correctly?
(Of course, all that is moot if I can't fix the other problem, which is a stuck screw or six.)

[Ricky-D]

I think the individual rider knows his bike the best. So I would discourage experimenting on other bikes as an exploratory enlightening.

All that aside, an ok running bike ought to be left alone.

A poorly running bike (a relative assumption) needs to be looked at but there are many things to do first before adjusting settings. Remember that the bike was running ok prior to the event and normally (carburetor) adjustments don't change lacking an outside force.

I recognize there is an urge among many riders to get the last little bit of performance out of their bike and "Can a simple adjustment" do the amazing things we all would like to have happen but that is really "Pie in the Sky" and the reality is, it will not happen.

A common thread among the relevant subject threads is "I did it, now what?"  I think without access to a dyno and a thorough knowledge of the carburetors and related issues you will eventually end up with less, rather than more, and an unhappiness about having started down that road in the first place.

***

[Dodis]

Mark,
I guess I was the lucky one, I had replaced all my o-rings with the Red-Eye kit last year, and anti-seize on the pilot needles, so that makes the ratio of stuck screws at the carb sync fest even worse for the other 3 bikes... 

I recall some previous posts (likely in the archives) that explained setting the pilots using an accurate tach (I am also thinking it was outlined in the Honda manual). But most came to the conclusion that X-number of turns out gave the same and sometimes better results. I also think Dag had done some testing with his gas meter and found the same. (short on time for searching today)

As for stuck and not removing the carbs to fix... I would guess squirt some penetrating oil of choice on the screws daily for a few days, and try again. If you feel REAL brave, you could try warming the screw, or the area around the screw with a soldering iron (no flame of course), to see if it helps break it loose.

Mike

[9Ball]

This is what I'm asking.  How do I go about demonstrating either the need for an adjustment, or the effectiveness of the adjustment?  Alternatively, how do I demonstrate that it's set correctly?
(Of course, all that is moot if I can't fix the other problem, which is a stuck screw or six.)

This is at least scientific in nature.....take a look at Colortune.  Set the pilots by color of the flame.

http://www.gadgetjq.com/ctune.htm

http://www.carbtune.com/colortune.html

I ordered one when I bought my Carbtune for synch'ing the carbs but haven't used it yet.  My pilots are set at the 2 1/4 turns after rebuilding the carb 2 years ago and runs just fine...one day I'll try it out and see what color the flames are.

[Larry]

This link is excellent on figuring out what is going on in the carb with regards to the different neddles and jets etc in there. Tells you how to adjust things according to how your plugs look.
http://hondanighthawks.net/carb14.htm

Could spray some thread penetrating stuff up at the pilots to get em loose. If you have to take the carbs out some guys have cut a slot in the pilots for a regular slotted srew driver bit. Better leverage than the "Honda" tool.

[DFragn]

I have and tried using the colortune system.
I was a bit dissapointed in that I could not see clearly enough the flame or it's color clearly enough to make any adjustment related to vision, even in a dark garage!
Perhaps it was because my stock #35 slow jets were fouled up pretty good. I have since replaced them with #38's.
Maybe now I should try the colortune again. Or just maybe it's all malarkey?
Then too, perhaps it's my early stage cataracts!

[Larry]

I have and tried using the colortune system.
I was a bit dissapointed in that I could not see clearly enough the flame or it's color clearly enough to make any adjustment related to vision, even in a dark garage!
Perhaps it was because my stock #35 slow jets were fouled up pretty good. I have since replaced them with #38's.
Maybe now I should try the colortune again. Or just maybe it's all malarkey?
Then too, perhaps it's my early stage cataracts!

My wife just had her eyes tested and her weak eye actually improved almost 50%. The optometrist, reviewing her file over he last couple glass upgrades was fairly sure she was in the early stage of cataracts. Have you tried the spark plug approach to tuning the different aspects of the carb?

[DFragn]

I have and tried using the colortune system.
I was a bit dissapointed in that I could not see clearly enough the flame or it's color clearly enough to make any adjustment related to vision, even in a dark garage!
Perhaps it was because my stock #35 slow jets were fouled up pretty good. I have since replaced them with #38's.
Maybe now I should try the colortune again. Or just maybe it's all malarkey?
Then too, perhaps it's my early stage cataracts!

My wife just had her eyes tested and her weak eye actually improved almost 50%. The optometrist, reviewing her file over he last couple glass upgrades was fairly sure she was in the early stage of cataracts. Have you tried the spark plug approach to tuning the different aspects of the carb?

My Dr. can see the right cataract and with my info assumes the left is building too. Too many years in the sun without proper UV protection. I've got a view years before I'll do surgery. Hell of a time driving at night tho'. Geez, I'm a young 50 y.o..

I only use the plug method to adjust my needles. I set all the pilots at 1.75 turns out for my upgraded 38 slow jets.

[Larry]

I only use the plug method to adjust my needles. I set all the pilots at 1.75 turns out for my upgraded 38 slow jets.

Some recommend the pilots set at 2.25, I guess this is for stock pilots and not 38's? Thanks.

[Dag]

The pilot jet is for idle to 1/4 throttle. If you turn the screw all the way in and the motor keeps running, your pilot is too big.
The smaller the hole in the pilot means less fuel at idle and the start of the throttle movement. Giving you a lean condition. It is better to be too rich than lean on the pilot.
The pilot screws are factory set and there are no reason to do any adjusments unless you have changed the nozzles.

[R J]

The pilot screws are factory set and there are no reason to do any adjusments unless you have changed the nozzles.

I agree whole heartedly with Dag here...........   Once you screw with the needles you will play 4377 getting them back like they were.