Help! Bike won't move! Shaft? U-joint? Splines? Solved!

[Savago]

Dear Friends

I was returning from Sequoia National Park through the CA-190 from Springville heading to Porterville when at an intersection I reduced the speed and when I changed the gear I heard a horrible metal grinding noise and even though the engine was on and I had the bike on gear, there was no power being sent to the rear wheel.

I managed to glide the bike to the roadside and called a tow truck to bring the bike to Porterville. After calling all the local shops to no avail, I decided to rent a uhaul truck + trailer and drove the 250 miles back to the SF Bay Area.

I guess this was in a way a blessing in disguise, as I was heading to Lone Pine (CA) and next would cross the Death Valley (and boy, the forecast was for 120F today). Being stuck at the side road is bad, but that would be death (no pun intended) if that happened in the Death Valley National Park.

Getting back to the bike: it is an I/S 99, has 78K miles (I put the last 14K) and never had any major problems until now. Maybe noteworthy to mention that I brought the bike to a local shop to have the tires changed before the trip (and rode something around 300 miles after the tire change until the bike crap out).

I recall some time ago someone posted a link to a video with a bike with the same symptoms: wouldn't move when in gear and a horrible grinding noise coming from the shaft area. But I was unable to find the post.

An important question: could a botched rear tire change (thus wheel removal) cause this kind of damage? I'm asking because took 3 guys in the shop working from 2PM to past 7PM to do the job (as the main mechanic wasn't around town that day).

Best regards


Savago

[Beardo]

My guess would be the driveshaft/pinion cup.  I saw the same video somewhere and that's what it was.

It's an easy and not too expensive fix to repair yourself if you have a lift.

Not sure if the tire change factored in, but I wouldn't go back to that place again. I just changed my rear tire and it took all of 15 minutes to remove the rear wheel and another 15 to mount it. I have a former Honda mechanic who has 28 years experience on Hondas who I won't hesitate to go to for complex things or things that require special tools, the rest I do myself for the reasons you stated. No one should take that long to change a tire. That's a sign of someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Sounds like the pinion cup. 3 guys 5 hours to change tires ? That's not encouraging. Do you have a bike Jack ? Have you removed the rear wheel and pumpkin before ?
 Death Valley in the last week of June ? You are a brave man. How did you like Sequoia National Park ? I haven't done it yet.
Just saw Beardo's post. Agree 100%.

[Savago]

@Beardo
It is great to know that is not an expensive fix! God knows that I'm in a tight budget now.
:-)

@meathead
I don't have a bike jack plus, I think I should at least give the guys the opportunity to try to fix it if they indeed broke it.

But if they come up with an outrageous quote, I will do the job myself.

Concerning the Sequoia National Park, I explored it from Springville (while most people go on the other side and generally follow to King's Canyon) and visited the Stagg tree (supposedly the second/third biggest sequoia in the world) and the Trail of the 100 giants.

The first is located in private property and you can only get there by riding through the CA-190 and next turning left in a mountain road know as the Redwood Drive. The advantages: you don't pay to visit and there are pretty much no tourists.

Also, you can touch the trees and even climb on them if you are in the mood.

Next, the Trail of 100 giants was pretty amazing, it is almost 1 hour walk through the forest where the paved trail offers great view points of the sequoias. Another bonus: motorcycles don't pay to park (as that is an area that belongs to the Park).

Concerning the CA-190, it is highly technical and with huge elevation changes (at the Stagg tree, you will be past 6000ft and when you make it to the Trail, it will be over 8000ft). Just be careful with the debris and the tar snakes in the road.

A nice route is to start the day in Springville, head to the the Stagg tree and have lunch in Ponderosa before heading to the Trail of 100 giants. I was planning to continue all the way to the Lake Isabella but there is a wild fire in the area that has destroyed IIRC over 200 houses and burnt over 8000 acres in the region.

Savago

[Gryphon Rider]

Could also be U-joint, but that is often preceded by an unusual vibration that gets worse. I also think it's the pinion cup to drive shaft splined connection. Either of these would not be harmed by the wheel removal/installation procedure, so it would be a coincidence. Ask them if they lubed the drive shaft ends. If they did, they should have seen the failing pinion cup splines and thus prevented your roadside breakdown.

[Savago]

@Gryphon Rider
That is precisely what got me surprised, there was no warning signals at all before the failure.

No vibration, no noise, no nothing.

I wonder how common is pinion cup failure in Valkyries? And is there a way to prevent it?

[Chrisj CMA]

@Gryphon Rider
That is precisely what got me surprised, there was no warning signals at all before the failure.

No vibration, no noise, no nothing.

I wonder how common is pinion cup failure in Valkyries? And is there a way to prevent it?

Some people never service the drive shaft and pinion cup.  Also the oil seal on the drive shaft should be replaced every few years.  keep it greased and good oil seal, that's all the prevention you should need, oh and make sure the boot at the front is always on tight and in good condition.

[Beardo]

@Gryphon Rider
That is precisely what got me surprised, there was no warning signals at all before the failure.

No vibration, no noise, no nothing.

I wonder how common is pinion cup failure in Valkyries? And is there a way to prevent it?

Your driveshaft/pinion cup splines were likely wearing due to lack of grease/maintenance. Once they wore enough to slip that first time, it would skip every time there was load on it, either on acceleration or deceleration(compression braking causing load on the splines).

If you hadn't done it yourself, or if all the places the tire changes were done weren't aware of the extra step of removing the 4 nuts to remove the pumpkin and service the driveshaft...it likely never got done.   

I think unless you ask them to do it during the tire change, they won't. It isn't "required" to do it to change a tire, it's an extra step a competent Honda mechanic would know about, but we all know how common those are.

[Gryphon Rider]

@Gryphon Rider
That is precisely what got me surprised, there was no warning signals at all before the failure.

No vibration, no noise, no nothing.

I wonder how common is pinion cup failure in Valkyries? And is there a way to prevent it?

I don't know how common failure is, but like Chrisj CMA says, keep it greased (manual says 3% moly grease at pinion cup and regular chassis grease at U-joint), make sure the seal is good, and I'll add ensure the two holes in the pinion cup that lead to the gear box are clear.

[falconbrother]

Please give an update when this gets fixed.  I'm curious as to what the problem is.

[Savago]

Ok, an update: received a phone call from the shop and they said the splines are toast and I need a new final drive.

The options were:
A) new one 1400 dollars.
B) new parts 500.
C) buy used one for 400.

I will visit the shop and check the damage.

When I asked if it was possible to see the weared parts when they removed the wheel to change the tire and the answer was yes, I asked next *why* they didn't warn me about it as I was going in a long trip.

The answer: ' _ I don't know.'

I will update as I got news.

Savago

[The emperor has no clothes]

That sucks. It seems clear to me that if it took 3 guys 5 hours to change out 2 tires they didn't really know what they were doing. If there was wear it would have spotted. I suspect they didn't put everything together in proper alignment. Who knows if they even used moly paste ? Is this your regular shop ? I think I would be having a heart to heart with the manager.

[da prez]

   FINAL DRIVE ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/
  Maybe a shaft and cup. I would really like to see the parts. Tow it out and get some help from a mamber. Where are you.

                            da prez

[Savago]

Update: they are to send to me the list of parts and photos of the damage.

Initially they told me would charge 2 hours of labor for doing the job, but now offered to not charge it. As soon have the photos I will post here.

I think it is worthy to mention that the last 2 tire changes were done at this shop.

@da prez
I'm at Sunnyvale, in the SF Bay Area.

[Savago]

Ok, I received a few photos of the damage in the bike as also the quote for the parts.

Any advice here?
https://goo.gl/photos/uJ4Rop19RYEzVCKcA

Savago

[Chrisj CMA]

Savage, gotta hand it to you, you win the prize for having the absolutely worst splines I have ever seen come out of a Valkyrie.

I would guess the shop quoted you around $2500 to fix it. 

Get that bike home and fix it yourself for $500 or so.

If the drive shaft is good at both ends, all you need is a new drive with its flange $500-$600 used

[big poppa pump]

Holy crap! I've never seen splines so worn down!!!!

[Jess from VA]

Those are worse than my granddaddy's teeth (and he didn't have any).

The picture also shows bone dry, which is awfully strange coming right after a rear tire change.  I don't know what your shop did for all those hours, but it wasn't servicing/lubing that rear rend.

It's more like they saw it and spent three hours scratching their heads before deciding to bolt the wheel and new tire back on, and hoping you broke down far from their shop (and it worked).

[Savago]

Most importantly, does this list of parts make any sense:
https://goo.gl/photos/UVp52jdGzNc8TSDU7

[Hook#3287]

Most importantly, does this list of parts make any sense:
https://goo.gl/photos/UVp52jdGzNc8TSDU7

Prices are high.  Their charging list prices, not what they pay.  Buy the parts your self.  Or better yet, get someone else to work on your bike.

42630-MT8-305 FLANGE SET
Price:$152.85
List Price $215.44


41310-MZ0-000 GEAR SET, FINAL
Price:$242.04
List Price $341.15

[Six-Cylinder Hooligan]

Holy smokes those splines look like they haven't seen any grease since your bike left the factory!!!

This shop is trying to break one off in ya. My advice to get your bike from them ASAP & never darken their doorway again... RUN don't walk away from these bozos!

Cheers,
-Art

BTW, glad you didn't get stranded in DV... I rode thru there in '97 on my Shadow 1100. CA 190 is a road that still makes me smile when I think back to that ride.

[Hook#3287]

WOW

I just went back and read the whole post.

You need to get your bike away from those idiots.

They not only caused your issue, but put your well being in danger.   Being from NE, I can only imagine getting stuck in DEATH VALLEY,

There is no way they re greased that flange only 300 miles ago.,  Nor did they the time before, I'll bet.

Takes everyone's advice, tell us where your located, get some help, get your bike home, buy a used pumpkin and flange and tell them Bozo's they'll be hearing from your lawyer.

They're a menace to the biking world.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Savago, there is a rear drive and flange in our classifieds. Under 98 tourer parts for sale. I know not of the condition, but he states they are good. Good luck. 

[Savago]

I just ordered all the parts from procaliber and partzilla (cost me around 500 instead of the 774 in the shop's quote).

Assuming I decide to do the job myself, what are the tools needed? Anything special besides a bike lift?

[vanagon40]

Savago,

If this shop did the last two tire changes, and you had no other maintenance to the rear wheel, you may have a good case against them for the damages. If you go to small claims court, the filing fee is usually not too large. I'll bet you could get a lot of affidavits from VRCC members to submit to the judge that would confirm that such damage would not occur if the splines were properly maintained during the tire changes.

As to your last question, there are no special tools needed, other than standard mechanic's tools (EDIT: I misunderstood and was thinking of replacing the entire assembly, not rebuilding it. Sorry for the misinformation.) You do not even need a bike lift if you remove the rear fender; you just need to get the rear wheel off the ground a couple of inches.

Good luck (and this is why many of us prefer to do our own maintenance, including tire changes).

[Hook#3287]

Seriously, if I were in the same situation, I would get a used pumpkin and flange and install it.  I never had a pumpkin apart and looking at the manual, it looks like it could be technical.  

Quick, easy, done.  Not to mention, you could probably get 2 for what the parts and labor will cost if you don't do it yourself.

I'm no expert mech, but I know my way around a tool box and I wouldn't take the time and effort to rebuild one when they are available for relatively cheap $$$.  Not to mention something could mess up in the rebuild.

I absolutely, would NOT allow, the same guys that turned your pumpkin into to toast, to touch ANYTHING on my bike.

I doubt the parts companies have those parts in stock, so you should be able to cancel w/o issue.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Seriously, if I were in the same situation, I would get a used pumpkin and flange and install it.  I never had a pumpkin apart and looking at the manual, it looks like it could be technical.  

Quick, easy, done.  Not to mention, you could probably get 2 for what the parts and labor will cost if you don't do it yourself.

I'm no expert mech, but I know my way around a tool box and I wouldn't take the time and effort to rebuild one when they are available for relatively cheap $$$.  Not to mention something could mess up in the rebuild.

I absolutely, would NOT allow, the same guys that turned your pumpkin into to toast, to touch ANYTHING on my bike.

I doubt the parts companies have those parts in stock, so you should be able to cancel w/o issue.

I agree. I've never done the gear lash adjustment on a set of gears, but I know it's important. If done incorrectly you will have problems. I still think I would have a talk with the manager at that shop. I'm sure their shop labor wasn't cheap. You should have been getting some qualified work for that money. I doubt they have once greased or put your bike together correctly. Instead you got the 3 Stooges .

[Jess from VA]

I agree with Vanagon.  

If you have your last two tire change bills, they should have your mileage (and dates of service) on them.  You get good pictures of your dried out, ground down gears.  You get good pictures (on here), both of proper service being performed (Orings & lube & inspection), and high mile Valks torn down without dried out, ground down gears.  You copy the relevant parts of the manual and ChrisJ's rear end service instructions.  You add your statement attesting that they are the only shop or person to have been in there in X amount of time and miles.  And you submit a list of the 1) (new or used) parts, and 2) labor from some other qualified shop.  You submit all this (maybe on a CD) to the offending dealer asking for damages of $X, or you will file in small claims court (AND make complaints to Honda, and the local BBB and/or other state business reguator agency(ies).  Do not give the dealer any original bills or other evidence, only copies.  Give them a number of days to decide if they will pay or go to court.

You can do all this verbally, but doing it in writing does not disappear like verbal conversation.  And if you go to court, it will prove you gave them an opportunity to make things right BEFORE going to court, which always impresses the court (and which could be part of proper small claims court procedure in your particular state... look that up).

Most dealers who see they are on the hook will want to do the work themselves (at least to save the labor part of the damage repair).  I doubt you want that, and neither would anyone else.  They may offer to settle for all or less than your demand.  If they do not satisfy you in the time you give them, file in small claims.  

If you go to court, use the same evidence you presented to the dealer.  I would bolster that evidence package with an additional statement or two from people who can claim to know their way around Valk rear end maintenance (maybe not as qualified expert Honda mechanics, but it does not take a qualified Honda tech to describe and know what competent valk rear end maintenance requires).  This expert evidence issue is one that would come up in court.  Competent rear end maintenance is more complex than say an oil change, but hardly as complex as say an engine or transmission or even a fork rebuild.  Any long term valk owner who can claim to have done all his own rear end service through 15+ years, through multiple rear tires, should be taken as good evidence, and considered by the court.

The dealer's best defense is that you only asked and paid for a tire change, and that's what they did. Your counter is that any rear tire change requires at a minimum the three Orings and final drive cleaning and lubrication (if not inspection of the Ujoint and cup/shaft disassembly/inspection and lubrication).  The manual and ChrisJ's tutorial and your statements will back this up.  And now the money shot.... and as a simple layman/consumer, you relied on the expected expertise of a dealer to your detriment and loss.

If you must go to court, add any additional expenses of securing evidence, time off work, lost vacation time, driving mileage or anything else (be fair, but not greedy), to your basic bike damage claim for parts and labor.  

[Steve K (IA)]

I believe BigBF rebuilds final drives.  Too bad he is on the road now, otherwise you could of sent it to him.

Get a hold of     http://pinwallcycle.com/    1-330-879-9910  They part out bikes.  Usually have parts listed on eBay.

See if they have a rear end and Final Driven Flange (the part attached to the wheel).

[Steve K (IA)]

Took me a half a minute to find Pinwall has what you need.

http://pinwallcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=599496

[indybobm]

That is a lot of money for a Final Drive that you cannot see the splines on. There are better deals:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371668945981?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/361620562603?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Both items are from the same bike.

Sounds like the bike is still at the dealers disassembled.. If you go get it, how are you going to move it?

[gordonv]

Look, easy to bash the shop, and I would too. Sue and the like, for what and how long?

If you think you can change a tire yourself, then you can change out the rear parts.

I would go back to the dealer with the list of parts and what you can get them for online, and have him match or better, do better on them. Then pull the bike from there and do it yourself.

Add your location in your profile, not just in your post. Throw a work party and see what kind of help you can get for a steak or burger (no beer till the job is done). I hate working alone on my bike, just like the company, don't need the help, but sometimes 2pairs of hands help.

[Grumpy]

If the maintenance is done properly, splines will look like this.



 These have 70,000 miles, cleaned and regreased every 12,000 to 14,000 miles. If you were closer, I would rebuild it for you. I have the tools and the know how. Have rebuilt 20 or so of them. If you get a used one, get the final drive and the wheel splines from the same bike so the wear pattern will match. Best to find one local so you can see it in person.  A good source would be to try a trike shop that does conversions. Also be sure to replace the 3 o-rings and use a moly paste to grease the splines. I noticed on the invoice they only have one of the o-rings listed, not a good sign. I suspect they have no idea what they are doing.

[rhubarbray]

I just ordered all the parts from procaliber and partzilla (cost me around 500 instead of the 774 in the shop's quote).

Assuming I decide to do the job myself, what are the tools needed? Anything special besides a bike lift?

I know I`m new here but I`ve rebuilt a couple of VMax rear ends and the one on my V65 Sabre. You DO need some specialized tooling. Most people do not have a dial indicator and magnetic or clamp type stand which is needed for the backlash check. The input pinion shaft is held in with a castle type ring nut which needs a special deep socket. And there is quite a bit of torque on it. I have Prussian Blue which is needed to check the contact pattern on the teeth when setting it up but I have heard of a Sharpie marker being used in a pinch. Do you have anything to remove and precisely press in fairly large bearings?

I`m heavily leaning with the rest of the crowd and suggesting picking up a used rear end and drive flange and save yourself some money and a lot of time.

Ray

[Grumpy]

I just ordered all the parts from procaliber and partzilla (cost me around 500 instead of the 774 in the shop's quote).

Assuming I decide to do the job myself, what are the tools needed? Anything special besides a bike lift?

I know I`m new here but I`ve rebuilt a couple of VMax rear ends and the one on my V65 Sabre. You DO need some specialized tooling. Most people do not have a dial indicator and magnetic or clamp type stand which is needed for the backlash check. The input pinion shaft is held in with a castle type ring nut which needs a special deep socket. And there is quite a bit of torque on it. I have Prussian Blue which is needed to check the contact pattern on the teeth when setting it up but I have heard of a Sharpie marker being used in a pinch. Do you have anything to remove and precisely press in fairly large bearings?

I`m heavily leaning with the rest of the crowd and suggesting picking up a used rear end and drive flange and save yourself some money and a lot of time.

Ray

I have all the tools to do them, if he is going to do this the tools will cost more than the final drive.

[Savago]

@all
Thanks for all comments and suggestions, I really appreciate it.

Concerning the bike, I was told they reassembled it (?), so I can just call my insurance and have it towed.

@indybobm
I will try to buy the final drive you recommended (and if possible, return the new parts I bought).

Starting with an used final drive, what would be the tools required to install it?

[Chrisj CMA]

@all
Thanks for all comments and suggestions, I really appreciate it.

Concerning the bike, I was told they reassembled it (?), so I can just call my insurance and have it towed.

@indybobm
I will try to buy the final drive you recommended (and if possible, return the new parts I bought).

Starting with an used final drive, what would be the tools required to install it?

Just the normal tools to take the wheel off 27mm socket and a torque wrench,  you will need a 12mm and a 14mm socket as well.  You should watch my powerpoint that is in shoptalk

[Savago]

Dear Friends

I did some digging and found 2 reviews that point to similar cases (i.e. botched service related to tire changes):

a) This case is from February this year
https://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=u5E9EwEFvym_UXtIQkTdEA
"I've had Santa Clara cycle acc. replace many tires on wheels that I brought in. Did a great job. Good prices. fast service. This time I didn't want to hassles with raising my bike and pull off wheels, so I decided to pay them to do it.
HUGE MISTAKE! When picking up the bike, it didn't feel right. a lot of friction, the bike simply didn't roll properly. them I noticed the speedometer didn't work. Showed the mechanic the problem. They pulled the front wheel off. Found out that the mechanic broke the speedo transmission, thought that was the problem. NOT! I noticed the speedomterr cable was wrapped incorrectly around the brake caliper, pulling it is a suspected bad way.  I suspected this may be damaged. want sure at the time.

The manger offered to pay for the speedometer transmission. He didn't know about the speedo cable. (confirmed that problem later)

when the part came in, I realized I didn't trust that mechanic, so I decided to fix it myself. pulling off the front wheel exposed a lot of damage in the wheel. the mechanic had crushed the speedo coupler in the wheel. It was also very clear that the way the mechanic assembled the wheel and the sequence of how he tightened things a completely backwards. (he basically tighten the spindle before he tightened the spindle clamps) This is why everything was crushed.  Each time I replace one component, I find another that was damaged.

I am up to a couple of hundred extra dollars so far. The speedo is still not working. I've decided to let the factory mechanic repair all the damage.  . But I don't expect it to be less than hundred of dollars in time alone.  

CONCLUSION:  Don't let the mechanic at Santa clara cycle accessory with on your bike.  Having tires mounted maybe acceptable but nothing more."


b) This case is from 3 years ago
https://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=A2CkZCB79wCWwj4wBt2QAw

"They don't know how to put the rear hub back on an MV Agusta. I nearly died after purchasing tires and having them reinstall the front and rear wheels. They gave me extra parts after the install which I found to be odd. I rode the bike home, and the rear brakes felt weird, but I thought it was just an adjustment the shop made when reinstalling the wheel. Upon further riding, the rear disk brake and hub became loose, and I almost crashed. The rear disk fell in towards the wheel causing it to rub on the rotors, and since they forgot to install some sort of locking ring on the rear hub, the back wheel became loose and started tracking left and right. After determining the problem, I returned the bike to them, and many months later they finished it. I believe it was 5 or 6 months, and they said the italian parts take a lot of time to be shipped from Italy. They didn't charge anything which is the least they could do. If you have a Japanese bike, they probably can install everything right, but if you have an Italian or German bike, I would take it to the dealer because whom ever does the work is clueless when it comes to higher quality engineering and installing those parts. The bottom-line is they sell tires at competitive prices, but beware of their knowledge of installation of those tires, and other work requiring mechanical knowledge."


*************************************************************************************************
I guess this pretty much rules out the idea of letting they try to fix my bike (as it may result in more damage).

Tomorrow I'm planning to rescue the bike from the shop (hope it works fine).

Savago

[Savago]

And this one is not related to service, but might be interesting too:
c) 3 year ago
https://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=O1McgEkATkwZovxqpwQqdA

"Lied about service history and condition of a motorcycle. When I took it to change the title we found the VIN had been filed off. Less than a month later when the "new clutch" stopped working, found that the gaskets hadn't been replaced, the flywheel was completely destroyed, and the drive shaft was in need of replacing.

When I called them the only response was that it wasn't their problem and at which point they shared that they had resold the same bike multiple times and the last owner was a first time rider.

At the end I said I was going to post this and they threatened to sue me if I did. One of the most ridiculous things I've heard in customer service."

[Savago]

Dear Friends

Just an update in the story: I bought the final drive pointed by a forum member and brought the bike to a goldwing specialized shop (WingNut@Fairfield - CA).

With the bike apart, they identified that the rim was damaged as result of the dampers being totally loose. That was also probably the reason why the final drive is toast.

I'm glad I decided to look for a specialized shop, otherwise if the new final drive was assembled in the old wheel in that sorry state, it would damage it in a matter of few thousands miles. Funny enough, the other shop had the bike apart and never mentioned anything wrong with the rim. I guess I dodged the bullet in this one (at least).

So, I bought a rear rim from another forum member and today got the bike done and back to the road. So, apart to all the financial damage, the bike is functional again and I'm looking for many years of good service ahead.
\o/